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Not jazz

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Yesterday I deleted the Wikiproject Jazz template from this site. My edit was reverted. My position is that Jakko Jakszyk isn't a jazz guitarist. Nor is he notable as jazz guitarist. Most or all of his career has been in progressive rock. He is notable as a guitarist for King Crimson, which is progressive rock, of a sort, not jazz. AllMusic classifies him as prog rock. None of the sources below, found quickly via Google, call him a jazz guitarist. The word "jazz" doesn't even appear.

All About Jazz has an album review about him, but that site has often articles about musicians outside jazz. The article opens, "He's been around for three decades, but British guitarist/multi-instrumentalist/vocalist Jakko M. Jakszyk has operated below the radar for the most part. His biggest break in visibility was touring with Level 42 in the early 1990s, but in recent years he's better-known as the guitarist/vocalist for the 21st Century Schizoid Band, a collective of King Crimson alumni who have revived material from that band's early years."

@Vmavanti: I note you have made a large number of edits recently removing jazz labels from articles (10 alone today). You talk above of finding sources "quickly" and if you are doing edits only a few minutes apart, you can only be looking quickly. Perhaps that isn't leaving enough time to get sufficient grasp of an artist's work in totality? I also note that you are marking these edits as minor. These are clearly not minor edits and should not be marked as such. I suggest you refresh your notion of what constitutes a minor edit at WP:MINOR.
You're right. They're not minor edits.
–Vmavanti (talk) 20:54, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Jakszyk is, these days, best known for his work with King Crimson and related acts, but that's only the most recent phase in his career. He's often worked at the jazz/fusion end of prog and he has many works that are consistently described as jazz. For a fair while, one of his most famous project was Dizrhythmia. Google Dizrhythmia and "jazz" is a word very frequently used about that band (allmusic.com call them jazz-rock although other sources more often talk of a fusion of jazz and Indian music). He was then in Level 42, a band described on their article as jazz-funk. Allmusic.com describe his Mustard Gas & Roses album as jazz. His Waves Sweep the Sand has been described as jazz/rock/fusion. Bondegezou (talk) 20:46, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There are many times on Wikipedia when I can debate with knowledge that I have (my judgment) or I can argue the way these things are supposed to be argued, using WP documentation and sources. My own view, without looking for written backup at the moment, is that there is no such thing as the "jazz/fusion end of prog". Prog and jazz have almost nothing to do with each other. Many people think jazz fusion isn't jazz. Imagine what they would think of King Crimson. Level 42, who I recall hearing many years ago, wasn't jazz. More to the point, these matters are supposed to be decided by sources. The points you raise are tangential and minuscule compared to the weight of evidence against. If you can find reliable sources that describe him as a jazz guitarist, better than what you've done here, I'm willing to talk about that. So the questions remain: Is he a jazz guitarist and, two, is he notable as a jazz guitarist. I say "no" to both and have given sources to back up that claim.
–Vmavanti (talk) 21:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There are clearly countless reliable sources that talk about jazz fusion as jazz (the Jazz fusion article has 61 references, but I haven't gone through them all to work out which say what), your own feelings on the matter notwithstanding. Level 42 is described as jazz-funk (3 cites given), which is described as a jazz genre (several sources given) in two well-sourced Wikipedia articles.
AllMusic describe the band Dizrhythmia as "A quartet with both European and American jazz musicians". In the album article, they describe the band as a "jazz-rock collective". They describe Jakko's Mustard Gas & Roses as "jazz". None of the "weight of evidence against" that you describe say Jakszyk is not a jazz guitarist: they are merely describing a later phase of his career. It is possible for a musician to work in several genres, particularly over a long career. He does not need to be a notable jazz guitarist: he is notable as a person -- we're then categorising what sort of person he is. Bondegezou (talk) 22:01, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care much for the journalistic hyperbole "countless". Many things can be counted. To the point at hand: I meant that the only evidence you've given is that AllMusic classifies one of his albums as jazz rock. Steely Dan is jazz rock, too, but Steely Dan isn't part of Wikiproject Jazz, despite Becker and Fagen being better educated, more skilled, and closer to real jazzmen. If we avoid the trap of splitting hairs, step back, and look at the big picture, what do we see? His whole career, all the albums, bands, concerts? A prog guy. Of course it's possible to be skilled in more than genre, perform it, record it. That's not the case here. If he were a jazz fusion guitarist, like Pat Metheny or Larry Coryell, then I might consider that there's an argument to be made. But he hasn't played jazz fusion. He's played prog. If you want a comparison, look at Andy Summers of The Police. Here's a rock guy educated in classical music who can play any genre. But the point is that he has actually recorded two undeniably jazz albums, one dedicated to Monk, the other to Mingus, and has recorded other albums than can easily be classified as jazz fusion. Look at the songs he plays and the musicians he's worked with. He recorded two albums with Robert Fripp, but neither Fripp nor Summers nor anyone else called those albums jazz. Summers is an example of the diversity you ascribe to Jakszyk, who can't even read music. If you are suggesting that Jakszyk had a "jazz" phase, then I would like to see evidence of that. There is no evidence in any of the guitar magazines or other reliable sources that Jakszyk is a jazz guitarist or even a jazz fusion guitarist. I refer back to my list of sources, which strike me as being obviously irrefutable. I'm not sure what the big deal is. It's not a value judgment. There's nothing wrong with being prog.
–Vmavanti (talk) 23:53, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I gave AllMusic citations using the word "jazz" for two albums, not one. I don't know much about Steely Dan, so I have no comment there. The references you gave refer to the recent period when Jakszyk has been working with Crimson: that's not jazz, but those references tell us nothing about his earlier work. I could find scores of citations that make no reference to Summers' jazz work, but you agree that he does count as a jazz guitarist. Bondegezou (talk) 08:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Summers. You can find sources that don't mention his jazz work, but you can find more that do. Back to my point about body of work. Summers isn't often mentioned by the popular press as a jazz guitarist, but the music press does. It's revealing to look at his body of work: the facts of his experience, who he has recorded with, and what he has recorded.
  • I refer you to his autobiography, One Train Later, for his education, musical tastes, and experience performing and recording.
  • He's mentioned on p. 227 of The Great Jazz Guitarists by Scott Yanow, which does not include Jaksyk.
  • AllMusic places Summers under the category of jazz on the first page of its biography about him.
  • It places the category of jazz on reviews for the albums I Advanced Masked, Bewitched, Mysterious Barricades, The Golden Wire, Charming Snakes, World Gone Strange, Invisible Threads, Synaesthesia, The Last Dance of Mr. X, Strings of Desire, Green Chimneys, Peggy's Blue Skylight, Earth + Sky, and Splendid Brazil.
  • Strings of Desire and Splendid Brazil were duet albums with Brazilian guitarist Victor Biglione.
  • Green Chimneys and Peggy's Blue Sky Skylight were albums of cover versions of Monk and Mingus, respectively.
  • He has recorded and performed with seasoned jazz musicians. Peggy's Blue Skylight was recorded with Dave Carpenter (bass), Joel Taylor (drums), Randy Brecker (trumpet), Nick Ariondo (accordion), Hank Roberts (cello), John Novello (organ), Curtis Fowlkes (trombone), and The Jazz Passengers
  • Green Chimneys was recorded with Dave Carpenter (bass), Peter Erskine (drums), Hank Roberts (cello), Joey DeFrancesco (organ), Steve Tavaglione (saxophone), Walt Fowler (trumpet), Bernie Dressel (drums). On this inside cover of this album is a short passage written by Summers about the first time he heard Monk's music.
  • Charming Snakes was recorded with Bill Evans (saxophone), Brian Auger (keyboards), Chad Wackerman (drums), Herbie Hancock (keyboards) Ed Mann (keyboards), Mark Isham (trumpet), Darryl Jones (bass)
  • The Golden Wire was recorded with Paul McCandless (saxophone, oboe), Kurt Wortman (drums), Jimmy Haslip (bass)
  • Earth + Sky was recorded with Vinnie Colaiuta (drums), Abraham Laboriel (bass), John Beasley (keyboards), John Novello (keyboards), Katisse Buckingham (saxophone)
  • World Gone Strange was recorded with Tony Levin (bass), Mitchel Forman (keyboards), Chad Wackerman (drums), Eliane Elias (piano, vocals), Victor Bailey (bass), Manolo Badrena (percussion), Nana Vasconcelos (percussion), Mino Cinelu (percussion), Mike Mainieri (marimba) and was produced by Mainieri.
  • The Last Dance of Mr. X was recorded with Tony Levin (bass) and Gregg Bissonette (drums) and included cover versions of The Three Marias by Wayne Shorter, Afro Blue by Mongo Santamaria, Lonely Woman by Horace Silver, We See by Monk, Footprints by Wayne Shorter, and Goodbye Porkpie Hat by Charles Mingus.
  • JazzTimes has articles about Summers. If you look in Guitar Player et al you're going to find his jazz work mentioned.
    –Vmavanti (talk) 18:09, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but what's that all about? I agree with you that Andy Summers is a jazz guitarist. He's a more famous musician than Jakszyk, more has been written about him and he's recorded more albums. Which tells us nothing about how to categorise Jakszyk. Bondegezou (talk) 22:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I should note my main concern is not the Talk page project label, but this category edit to the article.

Well, yes, it does. It's an example of how to determine if someone ought to be classified as a jazz guitarist. Summers isn't thought of that way, but when you look at the facts, as I said, and list them, which I did, the proof becomes clear. Try to do that with Jakszyk. You can't. When someone is called a jazz guitarist, that means a major part of their work and identity. Sting plays saxophone, but we don't think of him as a saxophonist because that hasn't been the majority of his work. He's a bass player. You wouldn't put "saxophonist" in the lede for Sting's page because it's been not one of his defining skills. Michael Jordan is a good golfer, and he briefly played minor league baseball, but his career was in basketball. That's his major defining characteristic. It's the difference between the norm and the exception. You don't put in a lede or infobox everything a person has done in their life. You put the defining characteristic.
–Vmavanti (talk) 17:47, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Given this conversation is going round in circles a bit, a shout out to some editors who have made significant contributions to this page previously: Dann Chinn, Rcarlberg. It was Derek R Bullamore who added the jazz category in this edit, who thus may wish to comment. I was going to ping the person who created the page, but then I discovered that was me! I'd completely forgotten about that... Go 2006 me. Bondegezou (talk) 10:09, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I did edit the page back in August 2010, so forgive me if I do not recall it very well ! I guess my addition of the Jazz musician category was prompted by the then line which ran "Jakko and Harrison's work on The Kings Of Oblivion project led to a more serious band in the shape of Dizrhythmia, a project mixing jazz, folk, art-rock and Indian music." I do not know anything of note about Jakszyk - maybe his dalliance with jazz was short-lived. I hope this helps; albeit just a little bit. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 10:31, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A dalliance (wrong word?) with a short-lived, obscure group that mixes "jazz, folk, art-rock, and Indian music" doesn't make you jazz guitarist.
–Vmavanti (talk) 18:12, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dalliance would be the wrong word: it was his band with Gavin Harrison. Kinda short-lived, although they released a second album last year after a long gap (here's a citation describing the second album, Too, as jazz). I've given you citations previously saying they come under jazz. I've given you citations saying other work of Jakszyk's comes under jazz. Bondegezou (talk) 22:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Numerous citations? What's your definition of numerous? You gave one source with three citations, two about the same band. "Numerous" means many, which is subjective, but surely it's more than two or three (or one). Dizrhythmia is described as "a quartet with both European and American jazz musicians". Does that mean he is one of them? I don't know. They made two albums. Does that constitute a body of work? The term "jazz rock" is a loose one that can apply and has been applied to musicians who aren't jazz musicians. Your second example is the group Mustard Gas & Roses, described as jazz. They made one album. I'm not sure why you can't understand the point I made about a defining characteristic versus a minor (or tiny) characteristic, jazz being the exception in his career rather than the norm. What's confusing about that? If a guy makes one hundred albums, and two of them are jazz-related, that means two percent of his work is jazz. It would be foolish to define him by that tiny percent when the rest of his albums are in other genres. Why isn't this guy mentioned in any of the major jazz magazines? Why is he so rarely referred to as a jazz guitarist? The burden is on you to prove your point that he is. You've given me a speck of evidence compared to the overwhelming evidence against, e.g. his entire body of work (which isn't jazz), his absence from jazz magazines, books, concerts, record labels, and other jazz musicians.
–Vmavanti (talk) 19:45, 21 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • On reflection, I'd be tempted to stick in "jazz fusion guitarists" or "jazz fusion musicians" as one of the several Categories at the foot of the article, and keep the WikiProject Jazz template out of it. This seems more accurate. Jakko's a highly accomplished and flexible art rock/art pop musician who ventures into jazz and fusion sometimes when he wants to, and because he can. There's no real need for the discussion to get quite this heated. My two cents. Dann Chinn (talk) 12:34, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Problems

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This article is far too long and too detailed. Verbose headers are one clue.
–Vmavanti (talk) 03:55, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Merge proposal

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Not consensus to merge, with discussion stale and an uncontested objection. Klbrain (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I propose merging The Bruised Romantic Glee Club into this section of this article. The article on the album does not demonstrate compliance with WP:NALBUM, and the sources are either not independant or not about the album. However, it does have some information about the album that is missing from this article, while this article provides a larger context that is missing from the album article. Therefore a merger seems appropriate. Tagging: @80s Sam and Onel5969: ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 16:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with that. Onel5969 TT me 17:43, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. The album has several existing reviews from reputable publications as well as self-published blogs (the former being within compliance even if the latter are not). Adding album review texts to artist main entries simply clutters up the latter. It would be better to add refs to the existing reviews within the album article and processed from there. - Dann Chinn (talk) 12:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've now added quotes and links from and to four reviews, at least one of which fits the guidelines. I believe that there have been other reviews in print publications at the time, but have not accessed these yet. - Dann Chinn (talk) 13:23, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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