Talk:Jacob Groenewegen

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This lemma on Jacob van Groenewegen is unreferenced and very likely not true. It seems someone mixed up Jacques Specx with Van Groenewegen. Van Groenewegen died in 1609 on Banda Islands#The coming of the Dutch, beheaded by the local population.Taksen (talk) 06:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See p. 98 and 105 in Opstall, M.E. van, 1972. - De reis van de vloot van Pieter Willemsz Verhoeff naar Azië 1607-1612, deel 1. 's-Gravenhage: Martinus Nijhoff, 1972. - 298 p.: (Werken uitgegeven door de Linschoten-Vereeniging; no. 73) ISBN 90-247-1287-4.

Here are a few Google Book elements on the relationship between Groenewegen and Hirado in Japan [1]. Groenewegen is the man whose name appears in the agreement for Holland trade issued by Ieyasu. There are also quite a few independent quality references on Google. I'll see if I can provide more information. Cheers PHG (talk) 17:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While I don't have the book at hand, I have read the relevant part of Mulder's 1985 book Hollanders in Hirado (I hope I'm not confusing this book with other books on this topic I read recently), and his hypothesis on this issue, which has confused many historians, in fact seems the most plausible to me:

- The Japanese writing is indeed much more compatible with the name Jacques Groenewegen than with the name Jacques Specx or any of its variations.

- This does not mean that Groenewegen was in Japan in 1609; as the article correctly states, he was dead before the ships even left Patani for Japan.

- Mulder (again, if I remember correctly) hypothesises that the Dutch delegation had the Japanese address the pass to Jacques (= Jacob) Groenewegen, not because he was there, but because he was the leading merchant of the entire fleet that left Holland in 1607 and included the two ships that ended up going to Japan; as such, he was the appropriate addressee of the pass, as the main person responsible for the trade conducted by this fleet.

- Mulder also mentions one or more similar cases, where a VOC delegation obtains a trading pass or signs a treaty (I can't remember which) in the name of a high-ranking person not actually present.

- I don't remember if Mulder touches on this, but given the proximity of the date of Groenewegen's death (May 22) and the ships' departure from Patani to Japan (June 1; https://www.vocsite.nl/schepen/detail.php?id=10593 and https://www.vocsite.nl/schepen/10386/), it seems quite possible that the Dutch delegation were in fact not aware of Groenewegen's death when they obtained the pass. 133.45.197.77 (talk) 08:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following lemma Nanban trade#Dutch involvement has the best information, and tells (very dry, but exact) what happened! I think someone should start the lemma on Jacques Specx. Then this lemma can be removed. Cheers too! Taksen (talk) 07:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE DUTCH FACTORY IN JAPAN.
On july 6th, 1609, two ships of the United East Indies Company, "De Griffioen" and "De Rode (vereenigde) Leeuw met pijlen" anchored off Hirado. Among the crews were the Chief merchants Abraham van den Broeck and Nicolaas Puyck and the under-merchant Jaques Specx. They undertook the journey to the Shogunal Court, on wich mission Melchior van Zantvoort acted as an interpreter. The last named came with the Dutch ship "De Liefde" in Japan in 1600, and established himself as a merchant in Nagasaki. The Shogun granted the Dutch the access to all ports in Japan, and confirmed this in an act of safe-conduct , stamped with his red seal. (Inv.nr.1a.). In september 1609 the ship's Council decided to hire a house on Hirado island (west of the southern main island Kiushu). Jacques Specx became the first "Opperhoofd" (Chief) of the new Company's factory. from: English summary of the inventory of the archives of the Dutch factory in Japan, 1609-1860

We need the actual Japanese, not just a transliteration. The article states that the name on the trade agreement is jiyakusu kuruunheike. However, the Dutch ref. to that states that it is taks or chaks, grun or krunheike or beike. They later say that g/krun is actually korun. Assuming that voicing was not marked, so that we can't tell if it was a k or g, an h/w, p, or b, their korun would still be a perfect match to 'Corn', while our kuruun would be a perfect match to 'Groen'. Thus getting the actual Japanese form is relevant for any reader trying to sort this out. kwami (talk) 20:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]