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Requested move 27 June 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED as proposed. Opposition to the move fell into basically three camps.

1. "Ivory Coast is more common in English!" In the face of convincing ngram evidence for Cote D'Ivoire, absolutely no evidence whatsoever was cited for this claim. It was summarily discarded, then.

2. "Ivory Coast is the English name!" Users such as Ajax were correct in saying things like "Wikipedia routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power." However, as referenced above, the only evidence we have shows that Cote d'Ivoire is the most common name for the country in English. The first sentence of WP:UE reads: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources". Ajax and others' arguments, therefore, aren't so much wrong as they are tautological. If Ivory Coast is the English name, it should be the title, but that's not something you can just assume to be true! That's the whole thing we're discussing!

3. "Cote d'Ivoire is hard to type!" As noted below, redirects exist.

All in all, pretty cut-and-dried. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 06:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above closure was overturned to no consensus at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire – It has overtaken Ivory Coast per ngrams ([1]) and should be used per WP:Common name. This is also the official name of the country, and the government has requested it is used over Ivory Coast [2], although that is of little value per WP:Official name.Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The convention is to use ngrams, and it shows Côte d’Ivoire has overtaken Ivory Coast in English media Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The convention is also to use English. We don't call Japan Nippon or Nihon. Killuminator (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We would if Ngrams showed English media used Nippon more often than Japan, but they don’t Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the country is called "Côte d'Ivoire" in English, then it's English...--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not... ngrams are not the only yardstick whether it's current NY Times, AP News, Financial Times, ESPN, Reuters News, The Guardian, even the Dept of Agriculture. Both terms get used formally but colloquially it's Ivory Coast. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ngrams is how we measure commonality, individual surveys are advised against per WP:Common name. Respectfully, you're denying clear evidence and convention. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see Article title#Foreign names and anglicization, The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively). Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is one of the ways, but there are many problems with it. It is certainly not clear evidence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some that use Cote d'Ivoire:
Kowal2701 (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
US gov also uses Cote d'Ivoire [13], just citing the department of agriculture is misleading Kowal2701 (talk) 19:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And some that use the English translation of Ivory Coast
There is no shortage of Ivory Coast users. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I’m not saying Ivory Coast isn’t used. This is about what is used predominantly per WP: Article title#Foreign names and anglicization Kowal2701 (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm not saying that French Cote d'Ivoire isn't used, but the translation of English Ivory Coast is used more. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide evidence for that? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did above... did you not see them? Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I don’t think that makes a strong case considering I matched it with equally notable sources Kowal2701 (talk) 09:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per ngrams [14] Côte d'Ivoire is used more often in english media Alexanderkowal (talk) 00:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not media.... books! Ngram books. There is so much more than what ngrams show. Newspapers and universities and heaps of other items show other leanings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. The official name "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, Côte d'Ivoire for short" is used more than Ivory Coast, as well as the government's preference to use the former than the latter. WP:COMMON would support the official name instead of the original per Ngrams. --ZZZ'S 20:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (strongly) per reasons listed by nominator, etc. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per ngrams results of Alexanderkowal. Here's the ratio of the two names — Côte d'Ivoire, with or without diacritics, is more common than Ivory Coast name since approximately 2004. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Unnecessarily complicated French name for an English-language Wikipedia, where Ivory Coast is perfectly "COMMON". Geschichte (talk) 10:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Côte d’Ivoire is used more commonly in English media therefore it is English, just like coup d’etat and cafe are English Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No it is not. ngrams never tell the whole story. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ? I'm really struggling to understand your opposition. Ngrams is what is conventionally used. What is special about this particular case that means we should avoid convention, and can you please refer to policy where possible? Kowal2701 (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I'm struggling on where the heck you came up with Wikpedia uses google ngrams and nothing else. That has never been convention at Wikipedia. It is one tool we use. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you give another tool we use that carries similar weight? We’ve provided a plethora of sources that use one or the other, which hasn’t really made a case for either. In doubt, ngrams shifts the scale towards Côte d’Ivoire, provided the user issues are satisfied Kowal2701 (talk) 09:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My impression is that ngrams holds decisive weight when assessing commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 09:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Then your impression is wrong. It holds weight, like many sources do. But a book search is not decisive. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree because I’ve often seen ngrams used as the only arbitrator for commonality, and I don’t think us listing sources one for one makes a strong case for either, or is a good use of time Kowal2701 (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I've often seen ngrams ripped to shreds here, and I've been here a long time. But I agree we are stuck in a loop where we have to agree to disagree. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. Ivory Coast is English and Côte d’Ivoire is French, no matter how many times the French name is used in English-language publications. Our policy prefers English for article titles. It is irrelevant that governments prefer the use of the French-speaking country's French name (see also WP:OFFICIALNAME). It is of course important that Côte d’Ivoire appear prominently in the lead as well as being a redirect. Station1 (talk) 21:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The policies you've cited contradict your position. From WP:ENGLISHTITLE The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively).
    Cote d'Ivoire predominates in English-language reliable sources therefore it should be used. I've shown evidence it does predominate using convention, and nobody's shown evidence it doesn't. WP:Official name says nothing to contradict this move. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are citing WP:UE, not WP:ENGLISHTITLE, which starts two paragraphs further up and clearly states as its first sentence "On the English Wikipedia, article titles are written using the English language." Your quote from WP:UE is just getting into details about spelling and anglicization of proper names like Kierkegaard's. Both "ivory" and "coast" are common English words, however, with only one spelling in English. Whether or not Cote d'Ivoire predominates or is "official" is irrelevant because it is clearly French. Station1 (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This comes from a misunderstanding of how language works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English then it is English. Coup d’etat and cafe are English words regardless of their origin. Kowal2701 (talk) 08:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ^ as the policy says Kowal2701 (talk) 08:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is incorrect. Cafe, in the sense of a small restaurant, is indeed an English word of French origin. The French word café is a different word that translates as "coffee". Coup d'état has no English equivalent ("stroke of state" is never used). Côte d'Ivoire, on the other hand, is simply French for Ivory Coast. Station1 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Lots of loanwords have translations in English, it isn't incorrect, this is how language works. Admittedly there are few examples I can recall of a foreign term overwhelming its English translation in usage but I'm sure there have been many. There are certainly lots of English translations overwhelming German words in German. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Neither of us are experts in language, we should wait for someone with a better understanding Kowal2701 (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you assume that just because you disagree with me? It is impossible to tell who is or is not an "expert" on WP, so appeals to authority, usually a bad idea, are especially worthless on WP, where every editor is anonymous and every argument must stand purely on its own merits. Station1 (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I don't think either of our arguments stand on their own merit. I'm just asking someone with a better understanding that could enlighten us, obviously we can still scrutinise, but there's considerable nuance to this that I don't think either of us grasp Kowal2701 (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You might very well be right, but it would contradict what I've heard people say. I'm not sure how to research this either Kowal2701 (talk) 18:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages#Linguistics of the use of Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 12:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It absolutely is correct. It's part of English because English-speakers use it when speaking English. They might also use "Ivory Coast" sometimes, but that doesn't mean "Cote d'Ivoire" is not English either. Theknightwho (talk) 22:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per what will yield the best results for research for our readers and what English language readers can type into a keyboard.Moxy🍁 21:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not knowledgeable about this side of things, butsurely if Ivory Coast is put as an alternative name it still comes up to the same degree? At the moment, if I search Cote d'Ivoire via google, the article for Ivory Coast comes up first, wouldn't it be the same the other way around? I think having Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire as redirects solves this issue. Lots of wikipedia articles have accents and diacritics Kowal2701 (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And with some titles, like Germany/Deutchland, Japan/Nippon, they are fully different names. Ivory Coast is the English translation of Côte d'Ivoire... they mean the same thing but one is English and one is French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again this comes from a misunderstanding of how English works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English, then it is english Kowal2701 (talk) 08:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think the shift has tipped to using Côte d'Ivoire. I note in particular that the Chicago Manual of Style says look for country names to the CIA World Fact Book (Côte d'Ivoire), Britannica (Côte d'Ivoire), U.S. Board on Geographic Names which in turn points to the Geographic Names Server (Côte d'Ivoire). In the UK, the permanent committee on geographic names states "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language and can be used for internal HMG and UK domestic purposes. Côte d’Ivoire should be used for all correspondence and relations with the country itself. Côte d’Ivoire should also be used in correspondence with international organizations, such as the United Nations" (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65006d9557e884000de12980/Ivory_Coast_factfile.pdf). Note the 'can' for domestic use which implies author's choice but 'should' for international use which means use Côte d'Ivoire in such cases. Australian government seems to use Côte d'Ivoire except in old documents though in at least one place has "Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast)". India seems to use "Cote d'Ivoire [Ivory Coast]". A search on google scholar since 2020 seems to show 22,100 for "Côte d’Ivoire" and 17,400 for "Ivory Coast" (524 had both, admittedly these numbers are estimates but it does seem to show a preference now for "Côte d’Ivoire"). :Erp (talk) 23:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    All governments will use Côte d'Ivoire, as will many official bodies, because it is the official name. I am not sure how a source saying "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language" can support the move, and I am surprised the PCGN uses "Ivory Coast". CMD (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My guess is that the PCGN is dealing with some very conservative people in the government and are probably waiting for them to retire (or lose the election). I would say scholarly works also have moved to Côte d'Ivoire. I wanted to see what K-12 schools might be using so went to look at the National Geographic "World for Kids Map" which uses Côte d'Ivoire as does Britannica Kids Atlas https://kids.britannica.com/kids/browse/atlas Erp (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's the thing, the CIA and US govt also use "Burma" instead of Myanmar. They have to take official positions when dealing with these countries and the politics involved. Yet the article is at Myanmar, not Burma. We don't always go by the CIA factbook... sometimes yes and sometimes no. PCGN uses "Myanmar (Burma)", but again we don't follow that either. We use what is commonly used in English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Myanmar is the official name, not Burma. ZZZ'S 04:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We don't go by official names, we don't go by CIA names, we don't go by PCGN names, and never have. That's what I'm saying. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You’re right, we go by what ngrams says, and it says Côte d’Ivoire is predominantly used. What are you suggesting we go by? Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We absolutely do not! Ngrams have been shown time and time again to be deceptive. Where in the world would you get that that's all we go by? They are one set of tools we use. Google ngrams only do books... not newspapers, not websites, not university teachings, not your average joe on the street, not magazines, not blogs, not tv news, not radio, not a lot of things. It is useful but it's only one thing to look at. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That contradicts my firm impression. Can you give some of the other tools used that carry similar weight? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If the one dimensional "book" ngrams of google is all we went by this place would look very different. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Please can you answer the question Kowal2701 (talk) 09:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Why do you think I listed a whole heap of sources that tell you otherwise? For my health? We use sources and consensus here... ngram books are one source we use but there are hundreds of other sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I listed some sources that use Côte d’Ivoire, I don’t that makes a strong case for either side Kowal2701 (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You may be right that sources could be split on the subject. There could be an endless parade of sources on both sides. That would be a reason to keep it where it is. And your posting also said it's the official name of the country, and the government has requested it be used over Ivory Coast. You know how much weight that carries here?... zero. Absolutely nothing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It was more to give reasoning for the change in use. WP:Official name#Valid use of official names goes by commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 10:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per ngrams results, which shows that Côte d'Ivoire has become the most common name in English usage over the past decade.
Beyond usage in books, it's also the name used by Google Maps, Britannica and other common references, so readers would expect to see it likewise listed here under that name.
I'd also point out that WP:NCGN#Use_English states that the local name should be used if there is no widely accepted common name in English, so even if we agree that English usage is split, clearly Ivory Coast is not the widely accepted name and so we should defer to the local name. TDL (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with Paris or Berlin), but in many cases it will differ (Germany rather than Deutschland, Rome rather than Roma, Hanover rather than Hannover, Meissen rather than Meißen). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. Two examples are Livorno and Regensburg, which are now known more widely under their native names than under the older English names "Leghorn" and "Ratisbon". Kowal2701 (talk) 17:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: the ngram Kowal2701 posted is limited to books. Other media do not show the same pattern. My own news search returned a lot of official-type sources using the French form, but the general news agencies (AP, Reuters) using the English form. In general, news stories targeted at the general public use Ivory Coast. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Other encyclopedias like Britannica, New World Encyclopedia, CIA Factbook, encyclopedia.com, Oxford Research Encyclopedia etc. all use Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You know, you COULD just let each person make their comment and not go badgering everyone. Let the positions be stated and then start a new section where you can argue all your points instead of dumping them all over everything. This would keep points from being discussed in multiple places. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Good point, that's what I should've done, my bad Kowal2701 (talk) 13:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, for now Government agencies prefer 'Côte d'Ivoire', but English publications targeted to the general English public prefer 'Ivory Coast'. This English Wikipedia article is targeted to the general English public, so should use what the general English public is most likely to search for. I make a note that the use of 'Côte d'Ivoire' is growing, but is not used enough in reliable English sources (targeted to the general reader) to establish it as the common name. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, but I can see this discussion being reopened as the usage of the proposed title increases. Svampesky (talk) 13:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For future RM discussions, nom should heed WP:GOOGLELIMITS, which notes that Google does not index all sources or even a representative sample, and WP:DPT, specifically: Tools that may help to support the determination of a primary topic in a discussion (but are not considered absolute determining factors, due to unreliability, potential bias, and other reasons) include [...] Usage in English reliable sources demonstrated with Google Ngram viewer (underline mine, italics original). The sloppiness of in the opening of this RM after so many previous ones severely disappints me. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 05:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I wasn’t aware of that policy. I’ve just seen ngrams used as a determiner so wrongly assumed that would be the case be here Kowal2701 (talk) 06:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there a place that policy is collated into a sort of book with chapters? I only become aware of it after making a mistake and someone cites it Kowal2701 (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on ngrams: In this case, ngrams results are significantly affected by OCR errors and other quirks, as Dohn joe noted at the 2012 RM. See ngrams including variations for l (lowercase L) and i, as well as ô and o, and space or no space in between d'. In particular, many were incorrectly transcribed as "lvoire" with a lowercase L; however, that mistake largely stops showing up after around 2010. The interpretation is debatable. I would say that Côte d'Ivoire probably gained in prevalence at an even earlier time than other commenters above believed, but also the pre-2010 portion of the ngrams results are probably less reliable than the more recent portion. Adumbrativus (talk) 05:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Conducting the same search conducted in the 2012 RM suggests that the common name remains "Ivory Coast". BilledMammal (talk) 18:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per Google NGrams, as pointed out. Theknightwho (talk) 21:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per reasonably common usage above, and given that "Ivory Coast" as a name is potentially somewhat ambiguous and generic. BD2412 T 00:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move review

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For the actual move review discussion, see Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July § Côte d'Ivoire (closed).
  • @Red Slash: You have to be frigging kidding me... there is no consensus to change this at all! ngram has all sorts of issues as was pointed out, and heaps was shown how common Ivory Coast is. I listed many and could have filled the talk page with more. The only thing on the side of Côte d'Ivoire was the ngram on books which is limited as pointed out in the discussion and prior discussions. This is one of the worst closes I've ever see. I can see it closing as Ivory Coast or even no consensus... but I'm actually shocked at this close. And it was still quite active with three people giving answers just today. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this is a candidate for review. Killuminator (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was just in a review on a different topic that I'm still amazed at, so sorry if I'm not optimistic in the review process here anymore. As long as a closer is sincere, reviews are stomped on regardless of poor closings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this should be reopened, although I can see why they came to that decision Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tbh I would understand if the result is no consensus, regardless I’ve conducted myself very poorly and don’t really deserve it tbh Kowal2701 (talk) 10:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Kowal2701: it's all a learning curve, and you conducted the discussion in good faith, which is the most important thing. As noted, in future you should avoid trying to reply to every single comment made, as that is usually regarded as WP:BLUDGEONing and/or "badgering" of those with whom you don't agree. One or two replies is fine, but otherwise everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you'll know for next time! Personally I think the above discussion should have been closed as "no consensus" - the !vote count was roughly equal, and good points were made on both sides - particularly given that the WP:COMMONNAME situation doesn't seem clear cut. The slight lead enjoyed by Côte d'Ivoire in book sources is offset by evidence of Ivory Coast usage in media sources. It's a lot closer than it was 10–15 years ago though and, assuming the move isn't made now, I can definitely foresee it being made a few years from now.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, no consensus might be the best decision, with a future turning point possibly being use by mainstream media Kowal2701 (talk) 11:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that no consensus is the best option. The thing is, Wikipedia uses common name over official name. Yes, the government asks (almost) every country to only be called by its endonym, but media outlets still refer to this by its exonym. Think about why Kiev remained that way until 2020 even though it may have been the official name since at least 1995. But for this, its originally been known (in Wikipedia) by its French name, but has since renamed to its English name in July 2012.
Maybe its time to open a move review which is why this talk should have taken place at User talk:Red Slash instead of here. JuniperChill (talk) 15:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote quite a lot about why there's a consensus to move. What did you disagree with? Only one side actually presented evidence, and it honestly was quite overwhelming. Red Slash 06:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I should clarify--one user did provide a list of several organizations that use Ivory Coast. However, that's literally what we have aggregators like ngrams for: so that instead of various people saying things like "look, I found a site that says X" and another person being like "hey I found a site that says Y", we can aggregate ALL of them together and see which one is more common. Obviously you can find some sources for either name, but the overall most common name was clearly proven to be the one that I can't type on my keyboard. Red Slash 06:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overwhelming???? And when is 14 several? ngrams are only one small aspect. You seem to be taking them as some sort of cure-all, and that has never been the case. And that was pointed out here multiple times. ngrams are only books that googles uses. ngram usage has been used in past discussions but their limitations were outweighed by so many other sources still using Ivory Coast. I had no idea that a closer would actually take that as the only evidence to switch titles. Sorry but it's unsettling to say the least. It takes no press, no tv, no newsprint, no universities, no radio, etc. into account. Sure we use it as one source but the counter arguments here were even more powerful and out-numbering. Plus 3 people had just entered their reponses the day you closed, so still very active to boot. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Side note - Google translates/converts the title to English...thus for many nothing has changed. Moxy🍁 13:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LOL... so those who need it translated to English can still see it as the English name of Ivory Coast. Otherwise we get to read it in French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click) "Côte d'Ivoire" significantly outperforms "Ivory Coast" on Google Trends as well: [15], and it still outperforms if you restrict it to any English-speaking country, too. Theknightwho (talk) 19:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is it is limited by what google stores. And In United States and United Kingdom (two huge English speaking nations) it's pretty much flat. But ngrams are not the determining factor in these discussions. Most of those in favor pretty much rest on saying "because of ngrams." Do you realize the change of wikipedia if we based everything on ngrams only? There are heaps of Wikipedia articles that have 100% to 0% in English ngrams yet the article gained consensus for the 0%. ngrams are one aspect of gaining consensus, but not the only aspect. People also search for terms they have no idea about (which is what Google Trends is)... it could be "what the heck is a Côte d'Ivoire" and when they search it comes up Ivory Coast and they go "Oh it's the same as Ivory Coast." Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click) I'm not sure why you've limited it to news. If you change it to "all categories" you can see that "Côte d'Ivoire" is consistently in the lead ([16]), and it's more pronounced in the US ([17]).
This isn't NGrams, either - it's Google Trends, which is based on what people search for on Google; a completely different metric, which means that we now have two quite persuasive pieces of evidence that Côte d'Ivoire is in the lead, and dismissing it on the basis that people are probably Googling one term more because they don't know what it is seems very naive. Theknightwho (talk) 20:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But we know from Wikipedia:Search engine test it is never as straight forward as that. People search for items they know nothing about. They know Ivory Coast so don't search for it. Of course they search for Côte d'Ivoire since they haven't a clue if it's a dessert or a country. Do you think people search for terms they know? We have so many articles at places where the ngrams are non-existent. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are comparing the search term Ivory Coast to the topic Cote d'Ivoire. Apples to oranges. When you make both of themsearch terms, Ivory Coast leads by quite a bit. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Ivory%20Coast,C%C3%B4te%20d%27Ivoire&hl=en-GB
In fact, if you look at the country by country breakdowns for the last 5 years, the only places where Cote d'Ivoire leads are 1) French speaking countries and 2) Italy. Ivory Coast reachs 90%+ in all major English speaking countries (US, UK, Ireland, AUS, NZ, even South Africa and India) except Canada.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not participate in this RM, but the close most certainly needs to be overturned to no consensus. English Wikipedia is consensus-based and main title headers of major entries, such as country names, should have overwhelming consensus and should be overwhelmingly used in media, as in the case of Ukrainian city names Kyiv and Odesa, formerly known in English by transliterations of their Russian names Kiev and Odessa. The Ivory Coast / Côte d'Ivoire naming is analogous to another long-running country naming dispute — Turkey / Türkiye. The expected overwhelming consensus in favor of renaming is missing in both cases — here, there were 17 votes, with nine votes opposed to the change and eight votes in favor of using "Côte d'Ivoire". Clearly, no consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree but bear in mind per WP:DETCON consensus is ascertained by the quality of arguments given, not saying mine made were better Kowal2701 (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I opened a formal move review at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July. These things rarely seem to go anywhere but it is the next step in the process. Even involved editors can comment on whether the close was proper or not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

[edit]

Y'all can't have it both ways. Either "Côte d'Ivoire" is an English term (as evidenced by it being the title) and it needs an English pronunciation, or it is a French term and it cannot be the title. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know who is y'all here, but that's the French name. It has nothing do with coats, including the English IPA is beyond silly. Do you want to request a move? Go ahead. I don't agree with your binary but I won't oppose it if there's consensus to move it. Rolando 1208 (talk) 13:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I note Cambridge University Press has a pronunciation guide https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/cote-d-ivoire or to be exact two (UK and US). I would guess that counts as a reliable source. Erp (talk) 03:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In English, it IS pronounced like "coat". That may be poor French, but that's irrelevant.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:12, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since you keep insisting that it's English, tell me, which English dictionary has the word côte in it? Please, enlighten me. Rolando 1208 (talk) 13:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not insisting that it is. I was against the recent move to this title. But, the move to this title means that "Côte d'Ivoire" is perceived as being an English term now. And the pronunciation like "coat" is how English speakers actually say this name.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Google translate/converts the title to English...thus for many nothing has changed.....so lets stick whatever you guys pick be in a note. Moxy🍁 17:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you're from Quebec, I think your input would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise these two might just edit war each other lol. 178.120.67.56 (talk) 19:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure where you get "the move to this title means that "Côte d'Ivoire" is perceived as being an English." The move is under heavy review but even so it was only perceived as being used more often, not that it is English. Do you realize that we have hundreds and hundreds of articles here at spellings that are never used in English media at all? Yet the articles are placed at these titles only because it's at a spelling used in the native land. 100% foreign 0% English. So it just depends here on Wikipedia but it is not etched in stone that it is now an English name just because it's at a particular title. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the term is what is most often used in English, then that makes it the English term for the thing.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:27, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That may be true, but the fact it's at that title does not make it the English term at Wikipedia and never has. Titles are not always placed at the most commonly used English usage at Wikipedia. Many factors go into a title name, No. 1 being consensus. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click) @Khajidha @Rolando 1208 This whole thread is completely wrongheaded: "Côte d'Ivoire" is obviously an English term because it is very easy to find it in English-language text. That's what makes something part of the language in the first place. All of the following are irrelevant:
  1. That it is derived from French, or whether "côte" can be found in an English dictionary.
  2. Whether it should be the title of the article.
  3. Whether it is the most common English term.
We obviously need to give English IPA for it. Theknightwho (talk) 02:27, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
However, the English pronunciation may differ drastically from the French or Ivory Coast pronunciations. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click) Yes, it might. What's your point? Theknightwho (talk) 03:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This was a post about pronunciation and whether to include it. That's my point. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click) I fail to see the relevance of "the English pronunciation may differ drastically from the French or Ivory Coast pronunciations" to that question. We include it regardless. Theknightwho (talk) 04:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Often I see that we don't. I've seen consensus say we should be pronouncing it in the foreign tongue and nothing gets placed for English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:00, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Khajidha exactly, it would be more consistent too. The Paris and France articles, for example, only include the French pronunciation. Rolando 1208 (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a terrible justification for excluding it, because if the term is used in English (which it is), then we should include the English pronunciation. Excluding it only makes sense if it is truly never used in English, which does not apply here, or the term is so widely-known that the pronunciation is unnecessary. The fact that "Paris" and "France" don't give English pronunciations is not relevant, because those are extremely common English words that most people know how to pronounce; and even then, I wouldn't object to us including the pronunciation anyway. Theknightwho (talk) 14:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also just to follow-up on this; the relevant part of the manual of style is MOS:LEADPRON, which makes the exact same distinction that I did. Theknightwho (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The French pronunciation is good enough. Easily pronounceable in English, save the R, which I don't mind (it's also common in African French to just not pronounce the last R in certain words, including this one). I don't think French speakers mind either. But English doesn't lack a monophthong O, in the word "for". Or even the word "awe".
And yes it's used in English sources but it's still French. It's composed of: Côte + d' + Ivoire. None of these are considered English, unlike Paris, Brussels, Toulouse, etc. Rolando 1208 (talk) 12:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it's generally pronounced different in English then the French pronunciation is certainly not good enough! That's silly. We simply source the English pronunciations. I doubt I'll ever use anything but translated Ivory Coast but if I did it gonna be like I'm reading a book today with the term, simply Coat Dvore and I move on. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Once something is used consistently in English, that form becomes English. Not the parts, the whole thing. And while the sounds used in French are present in English, the fact is that English speakers don't usually pronounce the sequence "Côte d'Ivoire" the French way. We should reflect that.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:49, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also "for" and "awe" are VERY different sounds in my dialect of English. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I see. Then the one in "for" the vowel IPA symbol being ɔ. Used consistently huh. Ok, besides dictionaries, is there any video or audio recording where they say 'Coat' d'Ivoire?
. Rolando 1208 (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You mean like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ_-sgpL7ao&t=20s --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Or this one: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/w5K9jm2eqAM --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:43, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208 Being used in English sources in English running text makes it part of English. Denying that it's part of English, and then using that to claim we shouldn't include the English pronunciation, is bizarre, because it ignores the reality that English-speakers (speaking English) need to know how to say it. Bizarre. Also you're completely wrong on your last point: grande dame and nom de guerre (both in the Oxford English Dictionary) don't magically stop being part of English simply because "grande" and "nom" aren't English words. They're taken as a whole. Theknightwho (talk) 19:27, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I find it odd that many native speakers of other languages seem to have no qualms about bending, folding, spindling, mutilating, and otherwise modifying words they adopt from English but expect English speakers to maintain the "purity" of words we borrow from them.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Boy that's true... but I'll bet that's mostly at Wikipedia, with Wikipedia editors. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to echo Theknightwho's comments. "Côte d'Ivoire" as a term is used by English speakers when they speak English, and it's included in English dictionaries and encyclopedias, so clearly it is an English term. We can debate how commonly it is used in English, but there is really no credible argument that it has not been fully assimilated as a loanword.
English speakers may not say it using the "correct" French pronunciation, but it isn't Wikipedia's role to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. As an English encyclopedia we should inform readers how it is commonly pronounced in the English language. TDL (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not "clearly an English term". That is WP:OR. The source we have in the article explicitly says it is French. Is there a source that explicitly says it is English? Station1 (talk) 16:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What part of included in dictionaries of English is confusing you? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:59, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Côte d'Ivoire is included in an English dictionary. Its verbatim definition is "French name of Ivory Coast". How is that confusing? Station1 (talk) 17:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Station1 Are you intentionally ignoring the Cambridge Dictionary citation further up the thread which doesn't say that? Stop being obtuse. The fact it's also a French term doesn't prevent it from being an English one, too. Theknightwho (talk) 20:10, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:NPA. There's no need for name-calling. Station1 (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
??? What personal attack? Theknightwho (talk) 00:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let's add the Cambridge Dictionary as a source for the English pronunciation once full protection expires in a few hours. Theknightwho (talk) 17:20, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good idea, except as Erp correctly notes below, that source shows the UK and US pronunciations, not the English pronunciation. Station1 (talk) 17:46, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Station1 What relevance does that have to anything? The Cambridge Dictionary is an English dictionary. In this link, which you've already been provided with, it literally states "Meaning of Côte d'Ivoire in English" at the top, then gives the UK and US pronunciations. Theknightwho (talk) 20:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It says "Meaning of ... in English" at the top of literally every entry. Look up "auf Wiedersehen" for example. It gives the meaning in English, stating it is "a German expression ...". It does not state the phrase is English. In fact, there is a page of that dictionary titled Foreign words & phrases used in English. That source is fine for citing pronunciation of the phrase in the UK and US, but not for stating the phrase is English. Station1 (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Station1 It quite literally does state it's English, because it says "Meaning of Côte d'Ivoire in English" (emphasis mine), and gives two (English) pronunciations. Unless you're implying that it's giving UK and US French pronunciations?
Your argument against the source is WP:OR, since you have inferred it, but to argue the point: the fact that they include "Meaning of ... in English" is because they are an English dictionary, and therefore only include English terms. The fact that they include "auf Wiedersehen" (which, again, is easily attestable in English) does not change that fact. Also, the fact they haven't defined "Côte d'Ivoire" as "a French name..." (or similar) undermines your point, even if we do accept that logic. Please learn how language borrowings work. Theknightwho (talk) 00:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They do not "only include English terms". Auf Wiedersehen is a "Foreign ... phrase used in English". Auf Wiedersehen is German. The source you cite says so. It also shows how the "German expression" is pronounced in the UK and the US. It does not specifically say Côte d'Ivoire is French or English, but the source currently in our article does explicitly say it is French. Station1 (talk) 00:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Station1 They're used in English, as they say - that means they are part of English: it's quite literally in the title of the list. Or are you seriously arguing that "coda", "maestro" and "smorgasbord" aren't English terms? Because those are in that list as well, and I can find all three in numerous English dictionaries, including the OED.
You are engaging in clear WP:OR at this point, aside from the obvious cherrypicking. Theknightwho (talk) 00:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quite the opposite. It is OR to assume every entry in an English dictionary is automatically English, especially when the opposite has been demonstrated. WP:V is a pillar of WP. We have a source that explicitly says Côte d'Ivoire is the "French name of Ivory Coast". Your source is great for the pronunciations of the French name of Ivory Coast. Station1 (talk) 01:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Station1 It's not original research to take the statement "Meaning of Côte d'Ivoire in English" as stating that it's part of English, because it can't be interpreted any other way. That satisfies WP:V.
On the other hand, your attempt to undermine the source by pointing to a completely unrelated definition is WP:OR, however, because you're trying to synthesise disconnected facts to come to your own conclusion. You've just now engaged in yet more WP:SYNTHESIS by concluding that the Cambridge Dictionary is giving French pronunciations based on the definition of "Côte d'Ivoire" given in a different dictionary. That's aside from the fact that neither of the pronunciations given in the Cambridge Dictionary are even close to the correct French pronunciations.
Even if we accepted your conclusion as true, you've also failed to address the fact that your logic implies that "coda", "maestro" and "smorgasbord" aren't part of English, too.
Quite honestly, I've got better things to do than deal with your case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT over the statement "in English" in the article, and it's become impossible to WP:AGF on your part at this stage. Goodbye. Theknightwho (talk) 01:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are repeating ourselves now, but the point is it can be interpreted another way, ie. the meaning is in English, not necessarily the phrase. The example of "auf Wiedersehen" has the same automated standard template at the top as Côte d'Ivoire, but is not English. I never said the Cambridge Dictionary was giving French pronunciations. They are explicitly UK and US pronunciations of the phrase Côte d'Ivoire. It is not a good source as to whether that phrase is French or English, however. We have a different source that is clearer on that point. Station1 (talk) 01:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given you're clearly happy to ignore WP:SYNTHESIS:

  1. Your alternative interpretation of "in English" doesn't work with the list of "Foreign words & phrases used in English", which is clearly stating that those terms are "used in English", which means they are part of English.
  2. If every page says "Meaning of ... in English", finding one edge-case that says the term is a "German expression" does not mean we can conclude that "in English" refers to the meaning, since that interpretation sounds very silly when you apply it to pages like apple. Clearly, it refers to the meaning of the word "apple", as part of the English language. Users don't need to be told that the definition is in English, since that's the part they're expected to be able to understand without assistance.
  3. They give "auf wiedersehen" as an alternative spelling of "auf Wiedersehen", which is not valid in the German language (which always capitalises nouns), so clearly "a German expression" refers to the language of origin, and is not stating that the term is only part of German, which is what you've concluded.
  4. The pronunciations they give (for both terms) only make sense in the context of English, as they use standard English phonemes, some of which don't exist in French or German.
  5. Both are taken from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus, which states that it is an English dictionary.
  6. The fact that another dictionary states that "Côte d'Ivoire" is French does not preclude it being English as well.

Theknightwho (talk) 02:15, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. A foreign word used in English is not necessarily part of English. There would be no need to note it as foreign then.
2. Agree. It's a weird and seemingly unnecessary boilerplate phrase. If every entry in this English dictionary is automatically English, as you claim, it's just as silly to have to say apple is an English word as it is to say its meaning is in English.
3. The source says it's a German expression. If I miscapitalize "A tale Of Two cities", it's still English.
4. No, a person from Chicago who speaks intermediate French likely speaks with an American accent discernible to a native French speaker. That doesn't mean he or she isn't speaking French.
5. It is an English dictionary that lists some words it claims are foreign.
6. True, but then we need a source that says equally clearly that it is English. Station1 (talk) 05:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Station1 You still haven't answered my question: are you claiming "maestro", "coda" and "smorgasbord" aren't part of English too? Because that's a logical extension of your argument. Every argument you are making is only plausible in isolation, but cherrypicking a single, unrelated definition and using that to claim that the dictionary contains non-English terms (even though they don't claim "Côte d'Ivoire" is a foreign term) isn't a good faith interpretation of the source. Theknightwho (talk) 21:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, this page on pronunciation states "To listen to the word, click on the [speaker] icon for UK English or US English." and this page specifically goes over the pronunciation of "Côte d'Ivoire" in detail with the statement "English pronunciations of Côte d’Ivoire". So yes, they do claim those pronunciations are English. There are other problems with your idea that they're transcribing French/German as spoken by an intermediate French-speaker, but the source is extremely clear about what those pronunciations are. We can easily resolve the issue of the "auf Wiedersehen" definition beginning with "a German expression" by concluding that they're referring to the origin of the expression (even though this still - I repeat - has nothing to do with Côte d'Ivoire), because we have to interpret the source in a reasonable way that doesn't lead to contradictions. Theknightwho (talk) 21:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't have to "interpret" a source at all. Because there can be different interpretations, as here. Especially when we have another source that says, in unequivocal terms, Côte d'Ivoire is the "French name of Ivory Coast". Station1 (talk) 05:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Station1 How is that mutually exclusive with a different dictionary making it very plain that the pronunciation they give is for "Côte d'Ivoire" in English? "Côte d'Ivoire" can be part of French and English, and English can have more than one name for the same thing. You have also been engaging in plenty of source interpretation to try to dismiss it, but the pronunciation page I linked in my previous comment does not need any interpretation, since it makes it very clear that it's English in plain language. You are trying to have your cake and eat it. Theknightwho (talk) 14:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to note that the Paris article has the French pronunciation, even though we can easily source the English one. I don't really remember why some editors insisted on that, but the fact that it does will lead others to insist that the same principle should apply to other articles. M.Bitton (talk) 16:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@M.Bitton We have both at the moment, which is fine. What I object to is nonsense like trying to claim that the English pronunciation which the source states is English is actually French. Also note MOS:DUALPRON, which states we should give both (with the English first), and MOS:LEADPRON, which makes an exception for terms where the pronunciation is widely-known in English (and even uses Paris as an example), which isn't something that applies here. Theknightwho (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
However regarding this, absolutely not. "Coat" d'Ivoire is Franglais at best. And it's not even accurate, the country has nothing to do with coats. Rolando 1208 (talk) 20:44, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We work on citations, not personal feelings. Theknightwho (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which citation are you reading that it says it's English and not French? I'm curious. Rolando 1208 (talk) 20:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the above thread. The Cambridge Dictionary calls it English and gives English pronuncations. No source claims that it is not French, but that's not relevant because words can be part of more than one language at the same time. Theknightwho (talk) 20:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright if you say so. Rolando 1208 (talk) 20:56, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208: pronunciations in other languages are what they are. They cannot be "inaccurate" and they don't have to make sense to anyone but those who use them. Some of the Spanish words that were borrowed from Arabic, like Trafalgar for instance, have lost their meaning and changed over time to the point of being completely unintelligible to an Arabic speaker. M.Bitton (talk) 21:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton Not sure if that's a good analogy. Spain currently doesn't have that many Arabic speakers. Côte d'Ivoire is a country where French is the lingua franca. The consensus among the Ivorians was to keep French, I'm sure they had their reasons. Ivory Coast is much better for English speakers, as that is was the French name means in English. If anyone's curious in Spanish we call it Costa de Marfil. I'm sure other languages have their own translation :) Rolando 1208 (talk) 15:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208: we're talking about the English pronunciation. The Ivorians have no say over it. M.Bitton (talk) 15:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're ok with being an English monolingual? Fine by me, it's your choice. It's a very common attitude among native English speakers. I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Cheers mate. Rolando 1208 (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong on all accounts. M.Bitton (talk) 15:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208 This has nothing to do with anyone being monolingual. Bilingual English/French speakers will pronounce "Paris" according to the language they are speaking at the time, and this goes for other words too, like "Côte d'Ivoire". You really don't seem to understand that the same word can exist in multiple languages, and that it will be pronounced according to the phonological constraints of those languages, even when a speaker speaks both languages. Sometimes it might be an imperfect imitation (like "croissant") and sometimes it might be totally different, but they're both still real, and it is not our place to judge what speakers should or should not be doing. I have consistently noticed that you take a prescriptive approach to pronunciation, and seem to think that the native pronunciation is the only true "correct" pronunciation, but that doesn't reflect reality, and it's not how Wikipedia works. Theknightwho (talk) 15:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Theknightwho Paris? Sure I can see that. As for the country, I bet you can't find a single French native speaker who pronounces it the English way (coat). They would either say it the French way or they would say "Ivory Coast" possibly with a French accent. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Rolando 1208 (talk) 15:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, French native speaker have no say in how a French word is pronounced in English or any other language. M.Bitton (talk) 15:55, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208 M.Bitton is correct, and it still doesn't change the fact that I only brought up that people change pronunciation based on the language they're speaking because you made a condescending comment about monolingual English speakers. Your personal feelings are not evidence, and we're not obliged to accept them until proven otherwise. Theknightwho (talk) 15:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, here's one at 8 seconds in ([18]). Theknightwho (talk) 16:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are not feelings. It's a fact. It's a French speaking country with a French name. You're not obliged to do anything. But if you make claims you need to provide evidence. Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And we're not discussing its French name. We are discussing one of its English names which is spelled like its French name but not pronounced that way.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208 You're the one making the claim that people don't change pronunciation based on the language they're speaking, which is a widely-observed general phenomenon cross-linguistically, and frankly, it's not even relevant. "I bet" has now turned into "it's a fact", and quite honestly I've got better things to do than deal with this big case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Theknightwho (talk) 16:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not relevant, well that's just great! Then why mention it at all? Now listen, don't get me wrong, I never claimed this for the word Paris. You're right about that, I never said otherwise. But since you mentioned it, I saw the clip, and he pronounced it accurately. He didn't say "coat" and he also didn't pronounce the last R which is very common in African French. Also y'all can stop replying all at the same time. I'm not trying to revert anything. I'm just pointing my disagreement. I just wanna say the only reason the consensus is that it's an English name, it's because y'all said so. You guys decided Ivory Coast is not good enough and wanna be fancy with the French name but paradoxically want to say "coat". I suppose spelling it exactly the French way it's fancy enough? That's how consensus works. The opinion that most people agree with wins. Even if it requires a lot of mental gymnastics. Democracy might be a flawed system but it's the best we have. Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No mental gymnastics needed. We are speakimg English, so nothing about French matters at all.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208 He definitely did pronounce it like "coat". You also seem to think this is about what we "want", but all we actually want is to describe how English-speakers say the word in reality, even if you don't like it. There's no paradox or mental gymnastics in that haha. Also, stop with the condescending comments about other commenters, because you're not assuming good faith; people have legitimate reasons for disagreeing with you, and it's got nothing to do with being "fancy" or monolingual. Fundamentally, speakers of one language don't get to dictate how speakers of another should say a word. Theknightwho (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong. I'm arguing in good faith. This is what you guys think will improve the article. I disagree. We have a difference in opinion and that's fine. As for the video, I heard it more than once. It was a monophthong, just like a French speaker would say it, NOT the English OU. It seems like he's from Ghana? In which case it would further prove my point. English speakers who actually visit or live there eventually learn to pronounce accurately, which is not surprising, it's not that difficult to pronounce. But alas Knight, you think pronouncing foreign words with OU (and probably AY/EY too) is of utmost importance! I cannot express the magnitude of my disagreement. But guess what? I have better things to do than to argue with you. You can have all the OUs and EIs that you want. If that's what makes you happy, I won't judge. Cheers mate. Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208 It's not good faith to caricature someone's point of view in a condescending way, or to make baseless assumptions about other contributors. It's just a fast way to end up at WP:ANI. Theknightwho (talk) 16:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok @Theknightwho. On what basis? When have I caricatured you or condescended you? Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see. While the name is French, its pronunciation in English is obviously English (the retained circumflex has no meaning in English). M.Bitton (talk) 20:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hopefully it will be decided to overturn this closure so that this argument can be put to rest. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Fyunck(click) We’re not going to delete these pronunciations even if the article is moved. Theknightwho (talk) 18:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess overall that is true. But as a secondary usage it's much less prominent. Should this also be in the Etymology section? Not just a footnote? Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don’t see how the pronunciations are relevant to the etymology, and they wouldn’t really be less prominent since the lede should still give both names, since they’re both common. Theknightwho (talk) 18:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Often with place and personal names at Wikipedia you will see a "name" section either separate or within etymology explaining spelling and pronunciation. If the title holds, this article seemed a good candidate. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Fyunck(click) you know, regardless of which IPAs to include or not. The page move result also looks like it should be non-consensus to me. Oppose has the lead, but only by one vote. I'm not sure on what basis it was closed. Maybe there's something here about policies and precedents that I'm unaware of. Rolando 1208 (talk) 16:40, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it was simply a poor close and why I opened a move review. I could not figure out the logic of basing it on one google book ngram. It's certainly a tool we use but it is also quite limited in scope and I had never seen someone use it so profoundly in a close. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It was not just one google book ngram; my support argument was not based on that. Barring a major trajectory change Côte d'Ivoire will become the major English name even if it isn't already. It has been the only name officially since 1986 (38 years) which is longer than the country recognized translated versions (26 years from independence in 1960 to 1986). This stance has held through multiple administrations including a coup d'état (Turkey's request to use Türkiye not Turkey is far more recent and only one administration). Côte d'Ivoire is used in recent English atlases and textbooks as well as in diplomacy. Though I do think the consensus closed a bit early.
    Going back on topic for this discussion, Côte d'Ivoire also, for better or worse, has a common English pronunciation or two that are quite different from the French pronunciations (diplomats working with French speaking countries might be using the French pronunciation even when speaking English). Erp (talk) 02:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation again

[edit]

Since we seem to keep having this problem: just like the word résumé is pronounced differently in French. American English, and British English, so is Cote d'Ivoire. And we need to show that in the article. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Résumé is an established word in English. Just like Ivory Coast. Côte and Ivoire are both French words.
Nonetheless, mon ami, let's compromise. What dost thou think of my last edit summary? Rolando 1208 (talk) 10:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are providing a pronunciation of Côte d'Ivoire as an English name, treated as English words by English-language sources. The fact that these words derive from French does not mean that they are pronounced exactly as French. That's just not how language works.
Regarding your change, I note that the words "coat" and "caught" are pronounced quite differently in most if not all dialects of English. You can't say it's pronounced "caught" when the source says it's pronounced "coat". Kahastok talk 15:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But caught is a better approximation for Côte... Rolando 1208 (talk) 19:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It wouldn't even be the same as K is aspirated [k+h]. And the R is obviously different.
Please self revert. I'm really trying here. Compromising and everything. I even used open O because regular O doesn't exist in English as a monophthong. Rolando 1208 (talk) 19:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why would someone self-revert the longstanding, correct, and sourced English pronunciation? To be honest most people I run across simply pronounce it coat-di-vore, but man in the street isn't the same kind of source as the Cambridge dictionary (or Websters). Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be trying to show English speakers how it should be pronounced to sound French. But that isn't what this is for. The provided French pronunciation already does that. What we need, and what was there before, is a record of how English speakers actually say it. It doesn't matter if this is "wrong" for French. It is right for English.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "coat" pronunciation that those dictionaries show is not universal. Some Anglos do say it with ɔ:
You're trying to marginalise the ɔ: pronunciation, that's not right. 178.120.4.30 (talk) 08:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rolando 1208 I know this is you. Please stop. Theknightwho (talk) 02:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Baseless accusation. I have replied to you on my talk page. Rolando 1208 (talk) 07:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a baseless accusation at all - that same IP range has been removing pronunciations with exactly the same reasoning and edit summaries that you've been making with this account, and has been making the precise same changes that you repeatedly tried to reinstate without any consensus. It is clearly you, and you've been edit-warring on this very talk page over the same threads on your account as well. It's a completely ridiculous situation, and trying to deceive the rest of us is just embarrassing. Theknightwho (talk) 10:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you know about presumption of innocence? I already gave you my reasoning as to why I restored that particular IP's edits. You don't give sources for your IPA edits. As an act of good faith, I'm gonna wait a few weeks, let you add the sources as I know this takes time. If you can't find sources for some of them, you can self revert. I know you'll do the right thing, I've seen your other edits. Rolando 1208 (talk) 11:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For full transparency, this was confirmed. Theknightwho (talk) 05:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even after getting me blocked, you can't let it go, can you? Why do you want to expose my IP address so badly? As long as I don't use it to game the system, what's the problem? But no, for you, me getting blocked is not enough. You just have to expose my IP range. This is harassment. Rolando 1208 (talk) 08:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two things here. First, anyone who clicks your name can see your block log with all the IP ranges from the Sockpuppet investigation. Yes it's easier with the post, but's it's easy anyway. And two, now that you changed the IPs to your handle, outside automated tools can connect your username and IP address in public databases... per WP:LOGGEDOUT. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good to know. Though since my IP was already leaked I guess it's fine. I guess the question would be if it was easy, why did Knight feel the need to point it out? Isn't getting blocked punishment enough? But yeah good to know about automated tools, thanks Fyunck. Rolando 1208 (talk) 09:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Blocks are not issued as punishments, they are tools to prevent disruption. It should be clear that no IPs have been leaked, many of the IPs were used to post on this public page. Furthermore, no harassment is evidenced, and if there is harassment, it should be discussed at an appropriate forum and not an article talkpage. CMD (talk) 10:02, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I explained why I posted it already: for full transparency; to make it clear it wasn't a "baseless accusation". Rolando has now changed the signatures on most of the comments they left as an IP to give their username, but at the end of the day anyone reading this thread has a right to know what happened here. Theknightwho (talk) 16:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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