Talk:Italian irredentism in Nice

A very funny article

It's amazing to see someone write an entire pseudo-historical article based on a few propaganda pamphlets published under Mussolini, and justified with a passing mention in a highly subjective article from a XIXth century issue of the NY Times by a condescending francophobic and germanophobic journalist... Even funnier is to see the author quote several academic studies on regional linguistics that actually totally contradict his article. Obviously hasn't read/understood them. Or begin with an irrelevant discussion of the unrelated ancient Ligurians and the Roman invasion to give a semblance of historicity. Worst of the worst is to see a "panel of peers" give their seal of approval to this. One can only hope that Mister/Missus Whoever who reads the article will not take it fo cash... It goes on to show that the slanderers have more power over Wikipedia in the end.

Who invented this

"Nizzardo Italians are the Italian speaking populations of the County of Nice (Nizza)." What??? Who invented this? Nizzardi are mostly of Italian background anyways... period. Most now speak French, but they are still Nizzardi (in Italian language, anyway). This is like saying "Corsican Italians" where "Corsicans" suffices... somewhat redundant. What is the purpose of this drivel? Mariokempes (talk) 00:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

On the book of Gray, Ezio Le terre nostre ritornano... Malta, Corsica, Nizza. De Agostini Editoriale can be read that "...Since 1861, after a sustained process of Frenchification, only in the coast around Mentone and in the mountains around Tenda there are still some Nizzardo Italians..."

That means that actually nearly 98% of the people living in the County of Nice do not speak the Italian language or the Ligurian dialect and so they are NOT "Nizzardo Italians", but French people. B.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.200.245 (talk) 03:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello Brunodam (I assume it is you? Glad to see you are back editing). The book you quote is, unfortunately, a biased piece of irredentist propaganda... le terre nostre ritornono!!!? The population of the the county of Nice IS primarily of Italian descent. The fact they no longer speak Italian or Ligure- but are french-speaking, French citizens- does NOT make them non-Italian. There is no need to distinguish those who may still speak Italian from those who do not. To say anything otherwise makes this article a vehicle for 19th C style nationalism which, quite frankly, has no room in modern european society. You know very well the ridiculous nationalist discussions that are happening at Talk:Dalmatian Italians... please don't start that again. Mariokempes (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Even if I am not B.D., I want to pinpoint that your tag is wrong, dear Mario. The irredentist book about "le nostre terre ritornano" is a scholar book (even if written in fascist times) and so it is not "original research".

Furthermore, the term Nizzardo Italians appears on pag 16 and 34 of the book of Holt, Edgar "The Making of Italy 1815–1870". The term is translated in English from the "Memorie" of Giuseppe Garibaldi, who created the italian term "Nizzardi Italiani" when writed about the 11000 persons from his Nizza forced to take refuge in Italy after France annexed in 1861 his native region. Garibaldi wanted to differentiate the "real" Nizzardi Italiani from the others who voted in 1861 for France, mainly in the interior mountanous areas of the County of Nice where most spoke the Occitan dialect. Indeed, as I have written "Immediately after 1861, the French government closed all the newspapers in Italian and more than 11,000 Nizzardo Italians moved to the Kingdom of Italy. The dimension of the "exodus" can be deducted by the fact that in the Savoy census of 1858, Nizza had only 44,000 inhabitants".....but nearly 20000 of those 44000 were Occitan speaking people (immigrated from the mountains to the city area for work) and used to call themselves French Provenzals. Regards.--Brunodam (talk) 02:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I never stated "le nostre terre ritornano" is "original research". I do emphatically state that it is irredentist fascist propaganda [For those that don't understand Italian, "le nostre terre ritornano" translates as "our lands return to us"]. The biggest issue that I have with this article is that it is removed from the historical context- there is not contemporary notion of a nizzardo italiano and to suggest so IS original research. Mariokempes (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting article; However, I agree this article seems somewhat fabricated and is clearly designed to emphasize historical content. It is not about an Italian people per se. As such, I think the people of the region of Nice that supported Italian unification cannot really be called "Nizzard Italians", and the fact that many in the area are of possible Italian (Ligurian?) descent- or at least Italian-like Provencal- makes this even more questionable. Without getting into linguistics, let me point out the Nizzard dialect may have been Italian and not Occitan, but keep in mind Occitan is very similar to the Piedmontese dialects. In essence, pointing to language here becomes irrelevant (although shameful that the dialect is essentially lost to French). Dionix (talk) 04:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that the information presented in this article is 100% misinterpreted or squarely invented, I want to emphasize the fact that there was NO such exodus of Italians after the reunion with France. It is not recorded anywhere but in some irredentist rag. Also, take note of a few basic facts: Italian at the time (1860's) was not a spoken language anywhere, except in its region of origin which is from Florence to Sienna. No one spoke it in the entire kingdom of Piemont-Sardaigne, where it was a written standard and no more. However, everybody did learn it if they were to learn to read and write, though many Nissart did study in France as well. Secondly, the Nissart from the city and the countryside were the same people and were never ethnic Italians/Ligurians at any point in history. Of course, there came Ligurian migrants among them (such as the Garibaldi's), who immediately adopted the local occitanic language. Nissa was indeed part of Provence until 1388 where it passed under the rule of Savoy, which was not itself to enter the Italian sphere of influence until the acquisition of Piemonte in the 1500's. The initial population of Nissa was and remained occitanic. In fact, the first book ever printed in Occitanic was written and printed in Nice : "Compendion de l’Abaco", by Francés Pellos, in 1492. Oh, one correction: there was an "exodus" after 1860 - a part of the aristocracy, which remained strongly attached to the Savoys. That would be a few dozens people, not 11,000. Even a few very basic readings in history could tell you these things, what have you been reading ?? Philippe de Nice —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.84.109.31 (talk) 10:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Italian irredentism POV

This article is full of Italian irredentism POV, so I have put a POV alert. Nice region was always Occitan-speaking (before recent francization) and all sspecialists in Romance linguistics consider that Niçard is an Occitan dialect. There is the same kind of POV in Niçard article.--Nil Blau (talk) 00:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Please let me intervene to support Nil Blau's claim. This article is some kind of a very strange mixture, with nationalistic and pseudolinguistic statements. As far as I can tell Niça's area has never spoken Ligurian except in some small enclaves (whose language is commonly known as figon/figoun) linked apparently to some migrations. I think we can refer to some old texts and documents if it should need to be proved that the native language of most of the County has always been Occitan and that it actually suffered some influence from Italian recently because of its geopolitical situation. Does the fact that your region was under Italian rule make you Italian, I really doubt it! Have a great summer! Capsot (talk) 21:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the two users above, this article is heavily biased towards an Italian-irredentist viewpoint. It presents history in a biased perspective, and its claims about linguistics are alien to the generally accepted modern linguistic theories. JdeJ (talk) 18:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed regarding the bias and, most of all, the lack of a basis for this article. While it is interesting, it contorts history and presents a background as if to substantiate a claim which really doesn't exixt. What the heck is a "Nizzardo Italian"?? I'm not too quick to discard the linguistic elements, however, but this is not the place to discuss that aspect (maybe the Niçard article is a better place?). I won't pretend to be a linguist, but it seems the regional dialect is very similar to Ligurian and Gallo-Italian languages, even if it is classified as Occitan by linguists. Some writings do refer to it as an "Italian" dialect, even if scholarly works in linguistic studies do not. Another simplistic reason I won't completely ignore the linguistic aspect is the abundance of Italian place and people names (Garibaldi himself). As part of the Kingdom of Savoy for many years, the official language for this region may have been Italian and that must have left some legacy as well... Just some thoughts and I welcome some enlightenment by those who know more about this. Dionix (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree too. The article is one of a series created by (the now sadly departed) Brunodam and his multiple socks to promote his own irredentist POV. They all display the same bias, historical contortions and attempts to substantiate nationalist claims to some kind of Greater Italy. If you are interested, the remainder of the series is Corfiot Italians, Corsican Italians, Dalmatian Italians, Libyan Italians, Maltese Italians and Tunisian Italians. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 07:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

So the question is asked : how do we delete an entire article ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.84.109.31 (talk) 18:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Historical evidences/sources of the existence of the Nizzardo Italians

There are many historical evidences/sources about the existence of the Nizzardo Italians.

The New York Times of March 29,1881 -for example- is a reliable source. It is not italian or french (and nobody can blame it to be irredentist). Please read [1]. It clearly states that "The Nizzards were quite as much Italians as the Genoese and their dialect was, if anything, nearer the Tuscan than is the harsh dialect of Genoa".

Another - quite simple - is that 27,003 people voted in 1861 to join France, but 345 to join Italy: so, the Nizzardo Italians existed, like the same Giuseppe Garibaldi.

Indeed it is historically proven that 11.000 of Garibaldi followers in his "Nizza" went to Italy in the 1860s as refugees. On pag 16 and 34 of the book of Edgar Holt, "The Making of Italy 1815–1870", there it is written (translated in English from the "Memorie" of Giuseppe Garibaldi) that 11.000 Italian speaking persons - from the Nizzardo of the Savoy dominions - were forced to take refuge in Italy after revolts against the France annexation of the region in 1861 --Againstantism (talk) 03:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion Bruno.-- AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

---

Very funny. You consider an obscure article in an American newspaper by a unidentified journalist as a reliable source?? And two passing mentions in an English book ? Would you not prefer to consult actual historical knowledge ? There are plenty of books available on the various subjects that you massacre in this article. For instance, the Republic of Genova did not exist before the year 1000. Also, the region of Nice was part of the County of Provence until it gave itself to Savoy in the 13th century, not part of the Genovese State.

Please read the Edgar Holt book "The Making of Italy 1815–1870". There it is written (translated in English from the "Memorie" of Giuseppe Garibaldi) that 11.000 Italian speaking persons - from the Nizzardo of the Savoy dominions - were forced to take refuge in Italy after revolts against the France annexation of the region in 1861. That's history, you like it or not.

Please read history books an essays. Serious ones, based on scholarly research, not the sayings of one man, however prestigious his name may be. Garibaldi, whose family, incidentally, is not from Nice (they are from Genova and settled in Nice during the French revolutionaty occupation of Nice), was Ligurian-speaking by birth, occitanic-speaking for having grown up in Nice, and educated in Italian, a written language used only as such in the Savoy States. There was indeed an "exodus" shortly after the annexation, by a part of the aristocracy who remained truthful to their former monarch... so a few dozen people. Also (it remains to be proven) some lawyers who had been educated in Savoy Law and basically lost their job. Again a handful of individuals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.69.91.125 (talk) 10:21, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous IP, where do you get the information about "a few dozen people" and a "handful of individuals"? Sources please. I am afraid you are the one pushing a POV without references here. Holt is a serious historian: some French nationalists should accept historical reality.

Who said that Nice was part of tnhe county of Provence, until 1388, when entered to be part of the Savoy dominions?Nice was under the provenzal rule only in a few times since the XXII and XIV century.In roman era Nice was part of Italay (IX regio Liguria) the ligurian region arrived untill to Varo river.The peoples of the county of Nice in roman era were the same lygurians living in Liguria, and not the gauls! In middle age Nice was part of the lygurian ligue in the seventh century and later offen participated to the italian history in alliance with the towns of Pise and Gene(THE SEA REPUBLICS!).Because the life and tRades of Nice were projected to the sea and not to the poor provencal hills.And the dialect was a mix of western lygurian and occitan.See also the typical nissard surnames, in majority are italians and not provancals(es. Alberti,Baldacci,Paolini etc), so it's imposible not recognize the italian and ligurian influence in the nissart people and culture, and of course language! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.31.70.124 (talk) 02:14, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion: move this article to the article on Italia Irredenta?

I think it's important to note that some Italian nationalists in Italy did have irredentist designs on Nice after 1860, as they did on the South Tyrol/Trentino, Dalmatia, and Istrian peninsula. However, as others have pointed out, there was no "mass exodus" of 11,000 Niçois to Italy after the annexation of 1860. Of course some inhabitants chose Italian nationality over French nationality and yes, some did leave for Italy, but the VAST majority remained in France and over time--as with the rest of France's provinces--became increasingly Gallicized through the spread of universal literacy. But the idea of a mass, French-induced diaspora is pure fiction. I have never encountered the expression "Nizzardo Italians" before, at least not in reputable sources. One of the sources cited for this article, the 1939 book entitled Nizza è l'Italia, is very clearly a work of fascist propaganda and citations from that source should be suppressed. In my view, this article belongs as a subsection of the article about Italian irredentism, not as a stand-alone article. I would welcome others' comments on this.Mole2 (talk) 05:57, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

My comment is that the article is well referenced and should be kept as it is, as officially ruled on January 1999. Garibaldi and his Italians of 'Niza-la-bela' were not a POV, but a reality well documented. French nationalists should accept this historical reality.--Everyreason1 (talk) 04:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The article is NOT well referenced. It s mostly written using Italian irredentist sources published in the late 19th century or under the Mussolini dictatorship. Beware: Everyreason1 is the sock puppet account of Bruno.--Mole2 (talk) 18:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The discussion about the article has been going on for years and the only official result has been the KEEP approval on January 1999. No additional evidence (or bibliography) has been added on the side of those who believe it is a POV article. IMHO this article is well referenced and written. Consequently I erase the tag. Sincerely, --Everyreason1 (talk) 04:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I have added a google book in Italian about the riots pro-Italy, that happened in Nice in 1872 and that were called Vespri Nizzardi (in relation to the historical 'Vespri Siciliani').If somebody has difficulty understanding it, I advise him to translate with " http://translate.google.com ". Sincerely.--Everyreason1 (talk) 05:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

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Weird proxy war

The article frames it as if the classification of Niçard into Occitan was a french nationalist position, despite french nationalist positions usually denying the existence of occitan altogether. --ΟυώρντΑρτ (talk) 10:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)