Talk:Isolation tank/Archive 1

Archive 1

External Links

Float Center Directory - A list of U.S. businesses where you can use a floatation tank..

Isolation Tank Blog. a list of float tank manufacturers worldwide —Preceding unsigned comment added by Profstandwellback (talk • contribs) 12:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

floating stuff blog blog--Profstandwellback (talk) 12:03, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The last link is another flagrant promotion for the company floataway as is the floatation federation website - which is a front for Floataway - lets see these removed or do we have to make an official complaint? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.34.48.22 (talk) 23:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The image happens to be a floataway tank just as it might be a Ford car, Floataway has not taken over the article. The association is also run by a commercial company surely directory type sites are allowable when they contain useful information?Profstandwellback (talk) 15:31, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you check the rules regarding commercialism / product placement / advertizing on wikipedia, a complaint will be made forthwith, the words "Egg Shaped Flotation tank from Floataway with flip top lid opened" are an obvious attempt by the floataway company to hijack this page for their own shallow commercial gains. Professor Colin Standwell Smith is the CEO of floatway which leads us to the obvious conclusion that profstanwellback is one and the same. This is a complete violation of the terms and conditions that are agreed to in the sign up procedure for a wiki account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.186.91 (talk) 21:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

The article has been taken over by a commercial company Floataway - the picture breaks wikipedia rules as it clearly states the manufacturers name and goes against the Wikipedia ethos, against item No.2 under the reference section is again for the same company - These should removed and action should be taken against the individual responsible, wiki member profstandwellback. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.186.91 (talk • contribs) 08:56, 6 December 2010

Components and Materials

It seems relevant to include a section on how isolation tanks are constructed. I do not have this information myself, but I plan to explore this topic soon and will be glad to create a new section for it. Of course if anyone else happens to have info, please feel free to start it yourself. --FJ, 00:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The early commercial tanks used a plastic liner and simple construction and this is still viable for a DIY float tank. Then GRP became the norm. The long term use of water at body temperature requires the best materials and especially gel coats. Normal commercial gel coats will suffer osmosis after a while. The latest float tanks use acrylic plastic with GRP backing to improve the life of the product. Plastics are used for plumbing and filters. Mag drive pumps are to be preferred for both electrical safety and freedom from seals. Hot tub type pumps will develop salt around the seals when stopped, this can glue the seal to the shaft and destroy the seal when the pump starts. Attention must be paid to disinfection even though not much can live or at least thrive in the epsom salt solution. The disinfectant will also be aggressive (they are all oxidising agents) to any metals especially in the air near the float tank. Early and DIY designs use external heating which comes on when the circulation pump is running. This is still common in Scandinavia where float sessions are typically forty minutes because the water starts to cool too much after that. Advanced float tanks use heating under or around the tub so that the water is always at the right temperature. The design should take regular cleaning into account. The solution needs disinfectant but the areas above the water also can have bacteria or fungal colonies. The construction can be insulated to reduce heat loss but ventilation is always required and thus there is a basic minimum heat loss to the warm wet air which escapes. The whole room in which a float tank sits must have ventilation to reduce the humidity.

The simplest float tank can be a paddling pool large enough with an external pump such as a mag drive washing machine pump and external container such as a bucket with heater, but this should only be attempted by someone who understands electrical safety. The top could be a tent. At the other end of the scale there are float tanks made of glass and plastics with complex lighting and sound systems and automated pump systems. Despite the history of total isolation the floater can relax very well with some light and with music playing, and this is common in commercial float centres. Advice and specialist knowledge is available on some websites and at least one manufacturer will supply specialist items such as flat heaters and top entry filters and so on.

Control can be just a thermostat in a simple float tank, the digital ones are best, but modern float tanks have session control with timers, music faders, light control, automated disinfection, cyclic pump timers and so on, often with computer control and adjustable parameters for the operator. Commercial float tanks should have an alarm system and must comply with regulations which unfortunately vary from place to place.Profstandwellback (talk) 20:56, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The part about Joe Rogan commenting on this was definitely on a Loveline episode. Does anyone know if he spoke about it both on Loveline and Opie and Anthony, or is the Opie and Anthony comment incorrect?

Use of scientific terms

"The parasympathetic response is the mechanism by which the body naturally regenerates itself and maintains chemical and metabolic balance". This line is misinterpreting what the parasympathetic nervous system is; both the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems work together to maintain homeostasis (although it is true the parasympathetic in a lot of cases is associated with "rest and digest" but this is different from regeneration). The whole paragraph needs cleaning up as it contains inapropriate use of scientific terms (eg. elimination of gravity is rubbish) and has no references for these claims. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 40.0.96.2 (talk • contribs) 08:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 08:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

floateria merge

I think the info at floateria should be moved here (though I wasn't the one who added the tag...). The floateria page is terrible: in fact it only contains the word "floateria" in a header and title, so I cannot tell what the heck "floateria" is. Any other opinions? Doctormatt 04:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Tank temperature

The first paragraph states that the water in the tank is that of skin temperature. Were this true, the human body would overheat inside such tank. The basic temperature in the tank should be somewhere around 20-25 degrees Celsius (I cannot recall the exact temperature).

The correct temperature for most people is 35.4 C which is 95.7 F. Individual blood normal temperature does vary by as much as a degree up and down but for the majority this is comfortable in that there is the right margin to get rid of body heat. Some people can detect small variations but most tolerate the range 35.2 to 36 C. Above 36 is definitely uncomfortable unless it is an open style float pool where the air above is cooler and allows heat loss. |||| —Preceding unsigned comment added by Profback (talk • contribs) 15:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not know what "skin temperature" is, but I disagree about the temperature you mention. I have had a tank in my home for 7 years. I keep it set at 94.3 degrees F (35 Celsius). If it goes down a degree or so that is okay, but anything less than 93.0 degrees makes it too cold to stay in the tank. 138.88.218.95 03:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)Keith L

Lower temparature then 34.6 C the floater will feel cold. The variation between 34.8-35.4 C seems to be the best since over 35.5 C the body starts to sweat. This is my conclusion and I have had a tank for 5,5 years. People with a fever can even at 34.8 get a feeling that the water is cold. I like to see someone in a floatingtank at 20-25 C, They will run up from the tank within a few minutes.

potential dangers, hallucinations?

I'm surprised there is no mentioning of the potential dangers of using a flotation tank, especially in a badly or poorly supervised setting. People in early experiments were excessively cautioned, which often caused them to panic or have bizarre reactions to the tanks. There also isn't a single mention of hallucinatory responses in the entry, with the exception of one that mentions taking hallucinogenics in combination with using a tank. Even without the use of drugs, hallucinatory reactions are reported quite commonly. The article seems to read like a brochure. I'm not terribly familiar with editing, so I don't want to just jump in. I thought I'd leave my thoughts here, along with a couple of linked sources to support my comments. Sorry if there's any sloppiness here, this is my first time using the editor.

The Psychology of Religion: An Empirical Approach by Bernard Spilka

The Man Who Tasted Shapes by Richard E. Cytowic Motemeal (talk) 11:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There are no potential dangers - I have been running 9 tanks for 15 years - no one has had a bad experience or freaked out - have you used a floatation tank yourself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.90.117 (talk) 11:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

How long are these people in the tank for? What kind of supervision do they have? And are you charging money for this service? That itself would make your claims biased. I'm not denying there might be holistic benefits that come with use, but there is documented evidence that prolonged use and poor supervision can have potentially harmful results. I've already listed documentation to that effect below. Motemeal (talk) 20:02, September 2, 2009

Your cite of the tasting shapes book indicates no dangers of hallucination. Merely effects of sensory deprivation. The specified effects are not dangerous and if anything are merely amusing and benign. Unless you think seeing floaty geometric shapes with your eyes closed somehow indicates a person is deranged and mentally damaged. DMahalko (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

People can stay in a float tank for many hours but one hour is common in commercial float tanks. There are hundreds of these in regular use and there are no incidents of harmful effects. Of course anyone trying it for the first time must be trained but this takes a few minutes. Most people just relax, many fall asleep. A few do report interesting dreams and experiences but almost always pleasant ones. The effect of sensory deprivation is really a red herring. In a float tank you can hear for example your breathing and the music usually, and you can feel the water as you move until after a while you relax and the supporting water becomes "invisible" The benefits of floating have been experience by tens of thousands of people and researched in proper studies so it is time to move into the current phase of expansion and more general knowledge of the advantages. e.g drug free pain relief, excellent stress relief, resetting your internal clock in jet lag, improving fertility (when stress is a factor) treating insomnia without drugs, speeding healing of bruises, sprains, strains, swellings.Profstandwellback (talk) 21:11, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The article has been taken over by a commercial company Floataway - the picture breaks wikipedia rules as it clearly states the manufacturers name and goes against the Wikipedia ethos, against item No.2 under the reference section is again for the same company - These should removed and action should be taken against the individual responsible, Profstandwellback. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.186.91 (talk) 08:59, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Sink-in, dry, waterbed-like isolation tank?

I seem to recall hearing about a special type of waterbed for burn victims that uses a waterproof loose/elastic cover over the water, that functions very differently from what is commonly called a waterbed. The cover over the water is so loose and flexible that the user sinks deep into the pool of water to the normal buoyant floating height without pressure sores forming on the burn victim's body. Meanwhile they stay completely dry due to the cover isolating them from the water.

Has this found any application as a form of lower-maintenance isolation tank? Just think, no need to filter and change the water, just need to change the bedding which may be little more than a super-stretchy lycra sheeting. I am not involved in the float tank industry so I don't know if this has been explored as a float tank technology.

DMahalko (talk) 07:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The type of bed which is so flexible is also very expensive to make. Burn beds actually use air with flexible fingers of plastic to seal all round, again expensive. Simple water beds are OK but it does not feel like floating in the water where the support is spead over your whole immersed skin surface, allowing blood flow everywhere.Profstandwellback (talk) 21:14, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Salt recovery?

Is there any economic and ecological value in recovering and extracting the epsom salt from the water? An often quoted number is "800 pounds of epsom salt" for a typical float tank.

This site shows a 50 pound bag costs $42.99, which is therefore $687 for 800 pounds: http://www.saltworks.us/shop/product.asp?idProduct=255

If the water is to be changed every two months for a moderately-used pool, that is some $4127 per year. At what financial cost does salt recovery become viable? And is it even possible?

Mere drying through evaporation would not be sufficient to purify the salt, since oils and sediments would remain in the dried salt. The article for Magnesium sulfate says the melting point is 1124°C, so perhaps the dried, evaporated salt could be fired in a kiln to burn off organic pollutants without damaging the salt?

Any one know?

Floatation tank solution lass for up to two years without the need for change - through filtration and shock treatments all oils and sediments are filtered / burnt off. Water evaporates and needs to be topped up every couples of days, a small bag of salt being added every month or so.

Epsom salt's main use by far is fertilizing the ground in Magnesium poor areas e.g. where heavily cropped. Therefore good use of old solution would be to spead it on the ground where plants can grow Profback (talk) 17:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

edit link

removedProfstandwellback (talk) 10:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

tank size?

The picture in this article does not provide the reader with a very good idea of average tank size, because there is no other object in the picture to compare it to. To me, the tank in the picture does not look nearly big enough to fit a full-grown person. Any chance we could get a picture that allow for a relative size comparison? Tad Lincoln (talk) 03:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

There are several downloadable pictures with people in the shot at www.floataway.com/images. The tank in the picture is plenty big enough it's 8 feet long, more than 7ft 6 inside.Profstandwellback (talk) 21:18, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Once again profstandwellback of the floataway shows a total disregard for this page and wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.186.91 (talk) 09:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The tank is too small - I have tried one, you have to float with your legs closed - if you're over 5'6" you have no chance of having a decent nor comfortable floatation session. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.34.48.22 (talk) 19:02, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

floatation therapy

A suggested addition to emphasise the current use of the float tank: {{Floatation Therapy}} Floatation therapy alt. sp. "flotation therapy", "float therapy" , "floating therapy" is therapy that is undertaken by floating in a warm salt water in a float tank.

Floatation therapy developed from the research work of John Lilly although he was not primarily interested in therapy, rather in the effect of sensory deprivation on the human brain and mind.

People using early float tanks discovered that they enjoyed the experience and that the relaxed state was also a healing state for many conditions including stress, anxiety, pain, swelling, insomnia and jet lag. It was found that floating rapidly, e.g in 20 minutes, induced a meditative state equivalent to that of a skilled meditator with many years experience in meditation technique.

As a result float tanks were produced for commercial uses and commercial float centres offering floatation therapy opened in several countries during the period 1980 to the present day when there are hundreds of floatation centres in dozens of countries. In almost all cases these float centres offer wellness treatments and in particular the release of stress.

Research into floatation therapy (as opposed to just the effect of isolation) began in the USA at Ohio State University where floating was shown to improve creativity in Jazz musicians, accuracy in rifle shooting, focus before academic examinations and stress relief, among others.

Research in Sweden has demonstrated the therapeutic effect on stress and pain.

The technique takes advantage of an atavistic ability that seems to be common to all humans to relax when floating at a comfortable temperature. The temperature is that which allows natural heat generation to escape without the need for muscle action to raise body temperature inhomeostasis. The floating posture, usually the supine position (although the prone position with chin supported on elbows is recommended for pregnant women), allows all the postural muscles to relax. The water pressure on the immersed skin is lower than the blood pressure and thus blood flow continues in skin capillaries. This is in contrast to normal bed rest where local contact pressure inhibits blood flow requiring regular adjustment of posture. When people cannot adjust their posture in bed, e.g in some illnesses, bed sores can result. When floating there is no tendency to adjust posture and a person can float immobile for many hours.

The natural tendency of the body in the floating posture at the correct temperature is to dilate the blood vessels, reducing the blood pressure and maximising blood flow. The brain activity normally associated with postural muscles is reduced to a minimum. In this state, which we can call the floating state, natural endorphins are released reducing pain. Lactic acid removal is accelerated. Flow in the lymphatic system is increased.

The effect on stress: Perceived stress can be correlated with increased levels of cortisol and in floatation therapy there is a natural tendency for cortisol to be reduced. For this reason Floatation therapy is one of the few non invasive techniques available to manage stress when it is a factor in reducing a person's abilty to cope with normal life. Floatation therapy is a fast technique in this respect. The Swedish research was based on 40 minute float sessions. This compares well with other management techniques such as long vacations.

There are many similarities with the age old long hot bath, the differences being that in floatation therapy the temperature is maintained at the correct level and the bath is large enough to float without touching the sides of the bath.

The effect of the salt: most float tanks use epsom salt, Magnesium sulphate (sulfate), in high concentration so that the relative density of the solution is about 1.25. This assists floating particularly making the head buoyant so that the nose and mouth are well out of the water for breathing.

It has recently been discovered that there is a secondary effect which is important to floatation therapy. Magnesium is absorbed through the skin thanks to a natural skin transport mechanism. This tends to correct a common deficiency. Magnesium is absorbed from the diet but in many areas of the world over cropping without adequate replacement of magnesium makes the normal diet low in Magnesium ,

The body naturally optimises the levels of magnesium, so there is no over load effect from floating in the salts for extended periods.

It is noted that there is no "floatation therapist:, although there is a need to instruct the floater and need to maintain the equipment in a safe condition. However floatation therapy is compatible with other therapies as a preparation or conjuct activity. Examples include massage, osteopathy, homeopathy, talk therapy, hypnosis.

Examples of Floatation therapy:

fertility: Many women, after medical examination for physical causes, are advised to take significant lifestyle changes such as moving house or stopping work because stress is recognised as a factor in infertility. Floatation therapy is an ideal stress reduction technique in many cases.

insomnia: Loss of sleep or disturbed sleep patterns can exacerbate stress and floatation therapy is an ideal technique to reduce stress in anticipation of bed rest. Many floaters fall asleep in the float tank. This is completely safe because there is no tendency to roll over when floating. Long periods of sleep are not usually possible in a commercial float centre but the therapy has long lasting effects so the sufferer can go to bed after a float session and sleep naturally without drugs.

swellings: The improved blood flow and lymphatic flow experienced in floatation therapy are very effective in reducing swelling, for example in joints such as shoulder, elbow, knee and ankle.

Definition

Floatation therapy

A person floating with no contact with hard surfaces in a controlled environment, using salt solution with relative density between 1.2 and 1.3 at a temperature between 34 and 36 degrees celsius for periods longer than 30 minutes.Profstandwellback (talk) 10:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Dan Brown The Lost Symbol

In the new best seller by Dan Brown, the hero is tortured in an "isolation tank" featuring total submersion in a liquid which has dissolved oxygen allowing life to continue as also seen in the Abyss movie. Brown makes a distinction in the book between isolation tanks and float tanks and I suggest the two should now be separated into two subjects. The isolation tanks subject could be for history and research since that is the John Lilly origin. The float tank section could start with the commercial and private use of float tanks beginning with the early Samadhi tanks. The current widespread use of float tanks in commercial centres for relaxation is so different from the original research use (and the fictional use conjured by Dan Brown, he claims CIA provenance) that it is confusing to have them in one place. Does anyone object to this suggestion?--Profstandwellback (talk) 14:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The only objection we have is that you constantly trying to pimp your company Floataway on this page, be off with you scoundrel and try to find some morals whilst you're about it, as they say it's never too late.

Dan Brown writes fiction. It seems possible that sensory deprivation achieved with an isolation tank could be used as torture (as can any kind of confinement), but as far as I know this is a purely speculative use.151.203.226.138 (talk) 21:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the confusion. John Lilly created the concept to research the brain. When his research was done, he found that all it did was relax you which is what we now use them for. Not confusing at all. No need for two separate articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.78.159 (talk) 07:41, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed external links

• Floatation Tank Association
• List of Floatation Centres
• Information resource on floatation tanks

- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.34.48.22 (talk • contribs) 18:59, 6 December 2010

• German Floating Association
• List of Floatation Centres

- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.66.198 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 19 May 2011

File:FloatSPA isolation tank 3.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:FloatSPA isolation tank 3.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests May 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:FloatSPA isolation tank 3.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 02:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

External links section

I've removed the External links section twice now. The relevant policies/guidelines include WP:NOTLINK, WP:EL, and WP:SOAP.

WP:ELNO #14 identifies for exclusion: "Lists of links to manufacturers, suppliers or customers."

WP:ELNO #19 identifies for exclusion: "Links to websites of organizations mentioned in an article—unless they otherwise qualify as something that should be linked or considered."

If someone wants to make a case for any of the removed links, please do so here, or perhaps bring it up at WP:ELN. --Ronz (talk) 16:15, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

---

I'm not an editor so please forgive me if I don't understand the conventions on posting a rebuttal, but the system on Wikipedia is very complex.

WP:ELNO #14 edit. The link is not a list of links to manufacturers but rather a single link to an independent resource page which has information on all manufacturers, including product specifications. The listings on that page are free, not advertisements.

WP:ELNO #19 edit. None of those associations were listed in the article.

Other links were deleted and no evidence of violations was provided.

I think a case can be made for not linking to the Yahoo groups site since the Xbot does note like it. However, please see fit to include all of the floatation associations, the float for health resource site, and the free online float spa locator. I think these are the most important and least controversial.

Mark77210 (talk) 16:46, 21 May 2012 (UTC)Mark77210

Ronz' removals are in line with Wikipedia's policies on external links (follow his links above). If a not-for-profit site carries listings, discussions or directories of manufactured products, including specifications, it can't be linked from here. Wikipedia is not a directory, either directly or by proxy. Haploidavey (talk) 18:50, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Egregious POV in the lead

"Athletes and celebrities have been known to lean toward this natural healing alternative" - what the hell is this? — Kallikanzarid^talk 12:49, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. This needs to be made more specific and referenced, or it needs to be removed. Ashleyleia (talk) 16:05, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Removed. I don't see anything in the article justifying it at all, much less being highlighted in the lede. The "Notable users" section seems to be the only related material, which seems to be just trivia without an independent source. --Ronz (talk) 01:41, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Torture References?

There are no longer any references to the tank being used for torture, yet it's in the torture category. It used to have references to it, and they should probably be put back -- if no one has any objections after a few days I may either add it back in myself or remove the article from the torture category. StopTheFiling 16:07, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

• No objections. Ben ^T/_C 10:27, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

I do not beleive float tanks have never been used for torture - I defy anyone to prove me wrong! I've been running a floatation tank centre since 1993 and average around 1300 customers a month. I've yet to see any customer leave a float tank in any state other than relaxed. I certainly don't subscribe to the notion that there's a deep human need for an almost constant input of stimuli. User:bloobuoy

I don't think that they've had very long stays in a very good tank. In The Cardinal of the Kremlin, one is used as a torture device, but the sensory deprivation is complete. The victim is completely submerged, covered head to toe with a substance that cannot be felt when wet and has her voice muted using destructive interference with the sound waves. BioTube 02:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Cardinal of the Kremlin - is a work of FICTION!

Sorry, very sloppy comment I made before. I meant to say "remove the category." There is indeed very few on isolation tanks and torture or MKULTRA. Ben ^T/_C 19:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Please see Dan Brown below--Profstandwellback (talk) 15:10, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The article has been taken over by a commercial company Floataway - the picture breaks wikipedia rules as it clearly states the manufacturers name and goes against the Wikipedia ethos, against item No.2 under the reference section is again for the same company - These should removed and action should be taken against the individual responsible —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.34.48.22 (talk) 23:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Absorption of Mg through the skin

This unlikely proposition (Mg+ is charged and therefore is unlikely to cross skin cells) is referenced by one unpublished reference, which has several flaws. Firstly, the error ranges are wide, and there is no statistical analysis, which renders the conclusion dubious. Secondly, it reports a significant difference between male and female levels of magnesium, which flies in the face of established physiology - medical reference ranges for magnesium, indeed most electrolytes, do not specify different values for males and females. Together, these results suggest that either the chemical analysis was flawed, or there is such a large inter-individual variation in individual Mg levels, that a much larger sample is required before any conclusions can be drawn.

Finally, these Mg levels are paired values (each subject before and after floating) and should be analysed as such, not by averaging all the values before and after floating, and then comparing the averages.

No wonder this report is not published. It is a tiny trial, has flawed study methodology, and is biologically implausible. Unsurprisingly, its results have not been reproduced by anyone else.

Floating has many benefits, but absorption of magnesium is almost certainly not one of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.254.6 (talk) 11:19, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Altered State of Consciousness induced by Floating

Within the work of the WikiProject Altered States of Consciousness, we are working on improvements of Wikipedia Articles on Techniques that have the potential to induce Altered states of consciousness in humans. Sensory Deprivation achieved within a Floating tank is one of them. We attempted to edit the Isolation tank article, however our changes were removed and marked as "trim unreliable sources", while the references that we cite, are in most parts peer-reviewed scientific literature. Also several of the current references are from overlapping authors.

In order to find some agreement on what information should be included on typically experienced phenomena during floating, we would like to dicuss this here. Please feel free to openly criticise and suggest improvemtents on the most important parts of our changes:

collapse content

Subsection of "Effects of Floating": Altered State of Consciosness Commonly known effects of flotation REST are the feeling of well being and relaxation. Apart from this, flotation REST has also been indicated to be effective in stress management. Reduction of stress hormone level and blood pressure were found to occur as a result of flotation REST. Further, it was reported to alleviate pain symptoms such as in fibromyalgia, muscle tension and in whiplash related disorders. Several studies tested also for beneficial effects on mental health disorders such as burn-out syndrome, depression, anxiety and ADHD. Also in combination with psychotherapy there exist reports of enhancement of therapeutic success . Additionally, flotation REST has also been claimed to enhance the originality in problem solving, when participants were assessed immediately after a session of floating. Some studies also claim an improvement on learning and creativity after floatation REST. Nevertheless, it is important to note that conclusive studies to prove efficacy in all aforementioned applications are missing by now. References

Whether or not a process has the effect of causing an altered state of consciousness is within the field of biomedicine and requires WP:MEDRS. (Where can I find the discussion of this among Wikipedia:WikiProject Altered States of Consciousness members?) Alexbrn (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Could you be so nice and let us know how to find out, what falls under "field of biomedicine" according to Wikipedia guidelines? Titoschmi (talk) 15:30, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:Biomedical information might be helpful? Alexbrn (talk) 16:00, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much! We added this information to our Wikiproject page, which was previously only internally discussed. In practice, we will limit our references to Secondary references (peer-reviewed review articles and books), refine the paragraph correspondingly and insert it again.

One question remains: If we consider a Primary reference to be reliable and neccessary, should we first discuss it on the talk page, or directly edit the article and only discuss it on the talk page if the change was rejected? Is there good practice rules for this? (Note: Also the Isolation tank article contains primary references. E.g. )

References

Talking is always good, but PMID 11854763 is a small, old, primary study so it's hard to imagine anything in the realm of WP:Biomedical information it could be used for (though sometimes such sources can be carefully used to source other more mundane things). Alexbrn (talk) 09:07, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

unsourced 1

the following is almost entirely unsourced. moved here per WP:PRESERVE

Tank design and usage

Initial isolation tanks were uncomfortable. Users were entirely submerged in the tank, which required them to wear a breathing apparatus and tight clothing. Users complained that the discomfort from the mask and clothing distracted from the isolation experience and that complete submersion led to fear of drowning. In current tanks, users are not submerged; instead, they float. This is done with a solution of epsom salt that increases water density, allowing the human body to float. Users float face-up in a relaxed position, with the face above the water and the ears submerged. This reduces the user's hearing, particularly when using ear-plugs as protection against the salt water. Users are encouraged to let their arms float to the side to further reduce skin sensation. This occurs because the air and water are the same temperature as the skin, and the feeling of a body boundary fades. The user's sense of smell is also greatly reduced, especially if the water has not been treated with chlorine. The density of the water prevents rolling over, even if asleep.

Another difference between early designs and current tanks is that tanks now face increased regulation of disinfection. In America, different states have implemented different rules. Chlorine, bromine and peroxide disinfection have all been used successfully. Most isolation tanks use a surface skimmer, cartridge filtration as a means of disinfection, and ultraviolet sterilization and chemicals to keep the water free of microbes and sediment. These machines are usually turned off during a session to keep the isolation space as quiet as possible. A ring heating system can be used around the outer walls of the tank so that warm water rises around the edges of the pool, travels towards the center, and then sinks under the tank user. This very slow water convection flow helps to keep the user centered in the middle of the pool. The small waves caused by breathing also aid in centering the subject.

Isolation tank construction and plumbing is typically all plastic. In most cases, glass reinforced resins are used. High quality flotation tanks may use acrylic or medical stainless steel which is impervious to the high salt concentration and more importantly the disinfectants. Epsom salt is not corrosive in the way sodium chloride is, but unsealed stone and concrete surfaces outside the tank can be damaged by splashed or dripped salt water as the recrystallizing salt opens up cracks and fissures as it dries. Chlorine used as a disinfectant can attack some surfaces such as marble.

Having plumbing facilities immediately next to the tank is also helpful when the water must eventually be changed to prevent microbe growth. The plumbing, including the drain pipes, should be constructed of plastic to prevent deterioration from the salt. The salt concentration may need to be diluted when discarded, to prevent damage to small private wastewater plumbing systems.

Generally, users of isolation tanks enter the pool nude. Swimsuits are discouraged, as the elastic material can create uncomfortable compressed stress points on the skin during the session. Due to the high salt content, the water is rarely changed, and all users are expected to shower, wash with soap, and rinse clean prior to entering the tank to avoid getting oils from their skin into the tank. The user rinses again after a session to remove excess epsom salt from the skin. White vinegar can be used to remove excess salt from the ear canal and hair.

References

-- Jytdog (talk) 00:39, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

unsourced 2

the following is unsourced or sourced to primary scientific source, which cannot be used to make claims about what that paper meant or how it was used. need independent sources for such content

moved here per WP:PRESERVE

from the lead

In 1970’s, the effects of sensory deprivation was further investigated more rigorously by the team of Peter Suedfeld and Roderick Borrie from University of British Columbia, who renamed sensory deprivation to "Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy" (REST). However, in the literature it is often referred to as ‘flotation REST’ and has been academically studied in the United States and in Sweden with published results showing reduction of both pain and stress.

from the body

In neurophysiology, there had been an open question about what keeps the brain going and the origin of its energy sources. One hypothesis was that the energy sources are biological and internal and do not depend upon the outside environment. It was argued that if all stimuli are cut off to the brain then the brain would go to sleep. Lilly decided to test this hypothesis and, with this in mind, created an environment which isolated an individual from external stimulation. Peter Suedfeld and Roderick Borrie of the University of British Columbia began experimenting on the therapeutic benefits of isolation tanks in the late 1970s. They named their technique "Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy" (REST).

References

-- Jytdog (talk) 00:41, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

health claims

User: Ochengo - it is great that you moved to a review instead of popular media in this dif but you introduced an older source to "trump" the newer source that is already in the article and that is not OK per the MEDRS guideline. Jytdog (talk) 04:00, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

User: Jytdog - Valid point. Always good to see editors with strong standards for evidence in these matters. Good to see your ban was lifted.

It is sometimes hard to find recent studies, since it is often published under the term "Floatation-REST" (Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy) - though I am sure you are aware of this, owing to your extensive scientific background (very extensive editing history!). Here is a more recent source regarding anxiety, from 2015: http://bmccomplementalternmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12906-016-1089-x

I will change my edit to say that it has benefits for GAD, not stress management.

Hope that is well with you. If not, let's continue discussing or please tell me your reason for objection.

Alternatively, here is a review article from Health, Volume 7 No 1:

file.scirp.org/Html/9-8203215_53214.htm

Let me know your thoughts so we can reach a consensus.

-- ochengo — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ochengo (talk • contribs) 04:52, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for talking. Each of the BMJ alt med article and the "Health" article " is a "primary" source (please do read the definitions at WP:MEDDEF and if you don't understand them, please ask at your talk page where I left you the note about sourcing). Jytdog (talk) 05:38, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Most of the research about Float Tanks has been done under the term "Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy", and many positive studies of various size have been done. It has shown improvement in treating hypertension, pain, stress hormones, improved athletic performance and recovery. Small studies have even shown potential to enhance creativity, curb addictive behaviors and treat autism. Here is a small list:

Collapse huge list of unreliable sources

Physical Effects Relaxation, Reduced Blood Pressure, Flexibility, Reduced Pain from Variety of Causes and Improved Tolerance to Stress-related Pain 1. Health and therapeutic applications of chamber and flotation restricted environmental stimulation therapy (REST). Suedfeld, Peter, and Roderick A. Bow. "Health and thxrapeutic applications of chamber and flotation restricted environmental stimulation thxrapy (REST)."Psychology and Health 14.3 (1999): 545-566. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08870449908407346#.VMo8yGjF9SE 2. The effect of brief restricted environmental stimulation therapy in the treatment of essential hypertension. Fine, Thomas H., and John W. Turner Jr. "The effect of brief restricted environmental stimulation therapy in the treatment of essential hypertension."Behaviour Research and Therapy 20.6 (1982): 567-570. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0005796782900353 3. Restricted environmental stimulation therapy in the treatment of essential hypertension. Suedfeld, Peter, Chuni Roy, and P. Bruch Landon. "Restricted environmental stimulation therapy in the treatment of essential hypertension." Behaviour research and therapy 20.6 (1982): 553-559. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/000579678290033X 4. The use of restricted environmental stimulation therapy (REST) in the treatment of essential hypertension: Two case studies. Kristeller, Jean L., Gary E. Schwartz, and Henry Black. "The use of Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy (REST) in the treatment of essential hypertension: Two case studies." Behaviour research and therapy 20.6 (1982): 561-566. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0005796782900341 5. Effects of relaxation associated with brief restricted environmental stimulation therapy (REST) on plasma cortisol, ACTH, and LH. Turner Jr, John W., and Thomas H. Fine. "Effects of relaxation associated with brief restricted environmental stimulation therapy (REST) on plasma cortisol, ACTH, and LH." Biofeedback and Self-regulation 8.1 (1983): 115-126. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01000542#page-1 6. Effects of Flotation REST on Range of Motion, Grip Strength, and Pain in Rheumatoid Arthritics. Turner Jr, John, et al. "Effects of Flotation REST on Range of Motion, Grip Strength and Pain in Rheumatoid Arthritics." Clinical and Experimental Restricted Environmental Stimulation. Springer New York, 1993. 297-306. http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4684-8583-7_31#page-2 7. Hormonal Changes Associated with Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy. Turner Jr, John W., and Thomas H. Fine. "Hormonal changes associated with restricted environmental stimulation therapy." Restricted Environmental Stimulation. Springer New York, 1990. 71-92. http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4613-9701-4_6#page-1 8. The presence or absence of light during flotation restricted environmental stimulation: Effects on plasma cortisol, blood pressure, and mood. Turner Jr, John W., et al. "The presence or absence of light during flotation restricted environmental stimulation: Effects on plasma cortisol, blood pressure, and mood." Biofeedback and Self-regulation 14.4 (1989): 291-300. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00999120#page-1 9. Effects of biobehaviorally-assisted relaxation training on blood pressure, plasma renin, cortisol, and aldosterone levels in borderline essential hypertension. McGrady, Angele, et al. "Effects of biobehaviorally-assisted relaxation training on blood pressure, plasma renin, cortisol, and aldosterone levels in borderline essential hypertension." Clinical Biofeedback & Health: An International Journal(1987). http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1988-27070-001 Mental Effects Subjective Experience of Relaxation, Activation of Parasympathetic Nervous System, Improved Learning and Concentration Post-Session 10. Stimulus reduction as a technique in health psychology. Suedfeld, Peter, and Jean L. Kristeller. "Stimulus reduction as a technique in health psychology." Health Psychology 1.4 (1982): 337. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/hea/1/4/337/ 11. The effects of flotation restricted environmental stimulation therapy on learning: Subjective evaluation and EEG measurements. Taylor, Thomas. "The effects of flotation restricted environmental stimulation therapy on learning: Subjective evaluation and EEG measurements." Restricted Environmental Stimulation. Springer New York, 1990. 125-134. http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4613-9701-4_10#page-2 12. The effects of short term Flotation REST on relaxation: A controlled study. Jacobs, Gregg D., Robert L. Heilbronner, and John M. Stanley. "The effects of short term flotation REST on relaxation: a controlled study." Health Psychology3.2 (1984): 99. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/hea/3/2/99/ 13. Memory effects of restricted environmental stimulation therapy (REST) and possible applications to ECT. Suedfeld, Peter, et al. "Memory effects of restricted environmental stimulation therapy (REST) and possible applications to ECT." Progress in Neuro-Psychopharmacology and Biological Psychiatry 11.2 (1987): 179-184. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0278584687900571 14. Water immersion and flotation: From stress experiment to stress treatment. Suedfeld, Peter, Elizabeth J. Ballard, and Margaux Murphy. "Water immersion and flotation: From stress experiment to stress treatment." Journal of Environmental Psychology 3.2 (1983): 147-155. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272494405801537 15. Eliciting the relaxation response with the help of flotation-rest (restricted environmental stimulation technique) in patients with stress-related ailments. Bood, Sven Å., et al. "Eliciting the relaxation response with the help of flotation-rest (restricted environmental stimulation technique) in patients with stress-related ailments." International Journal of Stress Management 13.2 (2006): 154. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/str/13/2/154/ 16. A controlled investigation of right hemispheric processing enhancement after restricted environmental stimulation (REST) with floatation. Raab, Jody, and John Gruzelier. "A controlled investigation of right hemispheric processing enhancement after restricted environmental stimulation (REST) with floatation." Psychological Medicine 24.02 (1994): 457-462. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstractfromPage=online&aid=5209976&fileId=S0033291700027422 17. Bending and Mending the Neurosignature Frameworks of Influence by Flotation-REST (Restricted Environmental Stimulation Technique) upon Well-Being in Patients with Stress Related Ailments. Bood, Sven Åke. "Bending and Mending the Neurosignature: Frameworks of influence by flotation-REST (Restricted Environmental Stimulation Technique) upon well-being in patients with stress related ailments." (2007). http://www.roga.org.il/files/products/float-for-fibromyalgia.pdf 18. Flow of Consciousness in Restricted Environmental Stimulation. Suedfeld, Peter, et al. "Flow of consciousness in restricted environmental stimulation." Imagination, Cognition and Personality 5.3 (1985): 219-230. http://baywood.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,3,7;journal,112,128;linkingpublicationresults,1:300311,1 Athletic Performance 19. Flotation REST and Imagery in the Improvement of Athletic Performance. Suedfeld, Peter, and Talino Bruno. "Flotation REST and imagery in the improvement of athletic performance." Journal of Sport & Exercise Psychology12.1 (1990): 82-85. http://www.floating-verband.de/pdf/Suedfeld-1990-athletic-performance.pdf 20. Flotation REST and Imagery In The Improvement of Collegiate Basketball Performance. Wagaman, Jeffrey D., Arreed F. Barabasz, and Marianne Barabasz. "Flotation REST and imagery in the improvement of collegiate basketball performance."Perceptual and Motor Skills 72.1 (1991): 119-122. http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pms.1991.72.1.119?journalCode=pms 21. Restricted Environmental Stimulation Technique Improves Human Performance: Rifle Marksmanship. Barabasz, Arreed, Marianne Barabasz, and James Bauman. "Restricted environmental stimulation technique improves human performance: Rifle marksmanship." Perceptual and motor skills 76.3 (1993): 867-873. http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pms.1993.76.3.867?journalCode=pms 22. Primary process in competitive archery performance: Effects of flotation REST. Norlander, Torsten, Henrik Bergman, and Trevor Archer. "Primary process in competitive archery performance: Effects of flotation REST." Journal of Applied sport psychology 11.2 (1999): 194-209. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10413209908404200#.VMpKFmjF9SE 23. Effects of Flotation Restricted Environmental Stimulation on Intercollegiate Tennis Performance. MCALENEY, PATRICK, Arreed Barabasz, and Marianne Barabasz. "Effects of flotation restricted environmental stimulation on intercollegiate tennis performance." Perceptual and Motor Skills 71.3 (1990): 1023-1028.   http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pms.1990.71.3.1023?journalCode=pms 24. The Acute Effects of Flotation Restricted Environmental Stimulation Technique on Recovery From Maximal Eccentric Exercise. Morgan, Paul M., Amanda J. Salacinski, and Matthew A. Stults-Kolehmainen. "The Acute Effects of Flotation Restricted Environmental Stimulation Technique on Recovery From Maximal Eccentric Exercise." The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research 27.12 (2013): 3467-3474. http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2013/12000/The_Acute_Effects_of_Flotation_Restricted.30.aspx Creativity, Art and Music, Visualization Positive Effects on Mood and Creativity, Enhances Visualization Techniques 25. Effects of Flotation REST on Creative Problem Solving and Originality. Norlander, Torsten, Henrik Bergman, and Trevor Archer. "Effects of flotation REST on creative problem solving and originality." Journal of Environmental Psychology 18.4 (1998): 399-408. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272494498901128 26. Creativity enhancement through flotation isolation. Forgays, Donald G., and Deborah K. Forgays. "Creativity enhancement through flotation isolation." Journal of Environmental Psychology 12.4 (1992): 329-335. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272494405800817 27. Effects of Flotation-versus chamber-restricted environmental stimulation technique (REST) on creativity and realism under stress and non-stress conditions. Norlander, Torsten, Anette Kjellgren, and Trevor Archer. "Effects of flotation-versus chamber-restricted environmental stimulation technique (REST) on creativity and realism under stress and non-stress conditions." Imagination, Cognition and Personality 22.4 (2002): 343-359. http://baywood.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,3,7;journal,43,128;linkingpublicationresults,1:300311,1 28. Effects of guided imagery and music (GIM) therapy on mood and cortisol in healthy adults. McKinney, Cathy H., et al. "Effects of guided imagery and music (GIM) therapy on mood and cortisol in healthy adults." Health Psychology 16.4 (1997): 390. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/hea/16/4/390/ 29. The Experience of Flotation-REST as a Function of Setting and Previous Experience of Altered State of Consciousness. Norlander, Torsten, Anette Kjellgren, and Trevor Archer. "The experience of flotation-REST as a function of setting and previous experience of altered state of consciousness." Imagination Cognition and Personality 20.2 (2001): 161-178. http://baywood.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,5,7;journal,53,128;linkingpublicationresults,1:300311,1 Behavior Modification/Addiction Treatment Treatment Option for Autism, Addiction Cessation 30. Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy (REST) as a Treatment for Autistic Children. Suedfeld, Peter, and Geraldine Schwartz. "Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy (REST) as a treatment for autistic children." Journal of Developmental & Behavioral Pediatrics 4.3 (1983): 196-201. http://journals.lww.com/jrnldbp/Abstract/1983/09000/Restricted_Environmental_Stimulation_Therapy.9.aspx 31. The Use of Restricted Environmental Stimulation Therapy in Treating Addictive Behaviors. Borrie, Roderick A. "The use of restricted environmental stimulation therapy in treating addictive behaviors." Substance Use & Misuse 25.S7-S8 (1991): 995-1015. http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10826089109071031 32. Restricted environmental stimulation therapy of smoking: A parametric study. Suedfeld, Peter, and Gloria Baker-Brown. "Restricted environmental stimulation therapy of smoking: A parametric study." Addictive behaviors 12.3 (1987): 263-267. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0306460387900372 33. Restricted Environmental Stimulation and Smoking Cessation: A 15-Year Progress Report. Suedfeld, Peter. "Restricted environmental stimulation and smoking cessation: a 15-year progress report." Substance Use & Misuse 25.8 (1990): 861-888. http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10826089009058861

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C54E:5DD0:70A7:5051:D142:618E (talk) 13:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Material for WP:Biomedical information must be sources to WP:MEDRS. Alexbrn (talk) 14:12, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Croald (talk) 18:16, 12 December 2016 (UTC) There appears to be difference of understanding about what the Jonsson & Kjellgren (2014) paper actually says. I admit I cannot at the moment get access to the actual article (citations behind paywalls are incredibly frustrating) but the title says "How relaxation in flotation tanks is advertised on the Internet", which seems to me to be very different from saying "How relaxation in flotation tanks actually works". It strikes me as terribly prejudicial to use an article about advertising excesses as a reason to reject citations to an actual systematic meta-analysis (Dierendonck 2005) that says what claims are actually supportable.

Croald (talk) 18:43, 12 December 2016 (UTC) I found the abstract for the "supermen" article, and it says "Method The Google search engine was used to localize web-sites hosting private floating center entrepreneurs. Described effects resulting from floating on these sites were systematically gathered and analyzed thematically. In addition, advertisements were compared to scientific studies on flotation-REST." This is a study of the commercial industry (which I absolutely agree frequently goes overboard), but it is not a review of what science says is or is not supportable. The conclusion is the relatively mild "Although the advertisements described many evidence-based effects resulting from floating, information tended to be exaggerated, could be misleading to consumers, and was not always substantiated by published scientific studies." Van Dierendonck 2005 appears to still be the most recent systematic meta-analysis, and my understanding is that it should therefore be cited.

please see WP:NOABSTRACT. I looked again at the 2005 meta-analysis brought by Ochengo and the refs we have and it actually is OK. The journal is poor and the article is not pubmed indexed but the article is responsibly written so I reckon we can use it. Jytdog (talk) 18:48, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. I have dug up the full text of the "supermen" article and could quote from it instead, but I think we've basically come to agreement so no need. Thank you for your diligence. (Incidentally, the acronym "REST" is widely used without there quite being agreement over whether the "T" stands for "therapy" or "technique". I've got articles using either.) Croald (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

OK. The "r" appears to mean restricted, not reduced. Jytdog (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Gotcha, yes. Croald (talk) 19:54, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

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