Talk:Isaac Bitton (boxer)

Corrcted D.O.B

Corrected from 1777 to 79. Earlier year wrongly posted before due to his parents' first-born son b.1777 (also called Isaac) dying in infancy. The famous Isaac was in fact born 29.06.1779. - given the same name of his late older brother. As mentioned in Who Do You Think You Are, currently aring tonight one BBC 1 (England), due to being 3x Great Grandfather of the recently deceased June Brown. Barney1995 (talk) 22:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

P.S. ref 2 on mainspace vouches for this. Barney1995 (talk) 22:10, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

'Famous' vs 'Notable'

Some of the text in the lead paragraph used to say that Bitton is 'most famous for a fight with George Maddox that lasted 74 rounds'.

Realistically, Bitton is not a famous fighter (even in the context of bare-knuckle boxing). Ditto for George Maddox. If 100,000 boxing fans were asked 'which boxer beat George Maddox in 74 rounds?' very few would know the answer. Few would have heard of either Bitton or Maddox, let alone having been aware that they fought each other, or that the fight lasted for 74 rounds.

I've changed the text to say that Bitton is 'most notable for a fight with George Maddox that lasted for 74 rounds', which seems like a fairer description. Axad12 (talk) 08:58, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Validity of Sources

Unfortunately this article suffers from an over-reliance on poor sources.

For example, 'Famous Fights' is a source used here. It was a 1904 magazine which featured long two page articles on early fights for which only very basic details were known. The writers embellished the known information until the descriptions were essentially just works of imagination. Or, as they say in relation to some films, 'based on a true story'.

A couple of examples:

In Bitton vs Jones, it is claimed in the article here that Daniel Mendoza acted as Bitton's second. Is there really any contemporary evidence for this claim (I've not been able to locate any) or is it what it seems to be, an invention of the 'Famous Fights' staffers, presumably based on the fact that both Bitton and Mendoza were Jewish.

Similarly, it is claimed in the Wikipedia article here (on the strength of a 1914 article in the Cedar Rapids Gazette!) that at the end of the Bitton-Jones fight a riot broke out between Jews (supporters of Bitton) and Christians (supporters of Jones). This claimed riot definitely does not appear in any contemporary account of this fight. Fair enough the article here does preface the claim by saying 'According to one account' (i.e that in the Cedar Rapids Gazette), but as there is little reason to assume that the account is anything other than complete invention (by a source which is clearly non-notable under Wikipedia's own rules), it surely has no place in a Wikipedia article.

Similarly we have a citation in the text to a very brief blog post in the 'Jewish Boxing Blog' where it is claimed that 'Isaac was a fencer before he took up boxing at 22'. Again, is there really any credible first-hand evidence to this effect?

Similarly there is an unsubstantiated claim in the article here that Bitton 'was a student of [...] Daniel Mendoza'. The only reference I can find to even vaguely support this claim is in Pugilistica vol 1, p231 where it says that Bitton employed a style of boxing reminiscent of that of Mendoza in the 15th round of his 1804 fight vs Wood. But this isn't really the same thing as evidence that he was Mendoza's student.

Also, at the end of the section on Bitton's career it says that Bitton 'along with his friend Daniel Mendoza' served as bottle holder and second respectively to Dutch Sam. The reference given (Pugilistica) does record that they worked in those roles for Dutch Sam in two fights, but it doesn't mention anything about Mendoza and Bitton being friends.

I can see that there is an attraction in stating that two approximately contemporary Jewish boxers had a teacher-student relationship and were friends, but realistically is there any actual contemporary evidence for any of this?

There is plenty of contemporary evidence about Bitton in sources such as Boxiana, Pugilistica, etc., all of which are easily accessible online. I'm sure this article would be much improved if all of the material in the article was referenced to the relevant sections in the original first-hand sources, rather than working from second or third-hand sources that incorporate a large amount of inaccuracy and invention. Axad12 (talk) 06:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)