Talk:Ionian school (painting)

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On 22 April 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Heptanese school (painting) to Ionian school (painting). The result of the discussion was moved.

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Requested move 22 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move as proposed; those in support have slightly stronger arguments and are slightly more numerous. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 07:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– The term Ionian seems to be more than 10X more common than Heptanese for these topics. Dicklyon (talk) 03:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 03:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 04:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

-I have written mostly every article on Wikipedia about these specific painters and paintings. I also have extensive knowledge about the school which is hardly written about anywhere outside of Greece. In the beginning, I thought Ionion School was a better choice but it conflicted with the very popular philosophical school the Ionian school (philosophy) which represents an entirely different region. I also had a hard time spelling Heptanese School. I did not find any references to the Ionion School in the Greek literature. Not once have I used the term Ionion School on wikipedia, if you do a simple Google search you will never find the term Ionion School referring to any of the paintings, icons or artists. The term is rarely used in the English because of the region.

Do a simple search in these books, The links to the books are available in the references I provided. The books are in the Greek language search the books using the Greek terms I provided. You can also search the internet for the terms in the Greek language.

Heptanese school Επτανησιακή Σχολή

These are the three possible choices:

Three different ways to say Ionian school in Greek. Σχολή της Ιωνίας, Ιόνιο Σχολή, Ιωνική σχολή. Not one of these terms discusses the painting school nor can it be found in the most extensive collection of encyclopedias which are below. Please click the links to search the encyclopedias below.

Ionian school Ιωνική σχολή

The next term you will encounter is Heptanese school Επτανησιακή Σχολή, which is referenced in all of the books as the correct term by Greek academics for the specific school in that region.

Hatzidakis, Manolis (1987). Έλληνες Ζωγράφοι μετά την Άλωση (1450-1830). Τόμος 1: Αβέρκιος - Ιωσήφ [Greek Painters after the Fall of Constantinople (1450-1830). Volume 1: Averkios - Iosif]. Athens: Center for Modern Greek Studies, National Research Foundation. hdl:10442/14844. ISBN 960-7916-01-8.
Hatzidakis, Manolis; Drakopoulou, Evgenia (1997). Έλληνες Ζωγράφοι μετά την Άλωση (1450-1830). Τόμος 2: Καβαλλάρος - Ψαθόπουλος [Greek Painters after the Fall of Constantinople (1450-1830). Volume 2: Kavallaros - Psathopoulos]. Athens: Center for Modern Greek Studies, National Research Foundation. hdl:10442/14088. ISBN 960-7916-00-X.
Drakopoulou, Evgenia (2010). Έλληνες Ζωγράφοι μετά την Άλωση (1450–1830). Τόμος 3: Αβέρκιος - Ιωσήφ [Greek Painters after the Fall of Constantinople (1450–1830). Volume 3: Averkios - Joseph]. Athens, Greece: Center for Modern Greek Studies, National Research Foundation. ISBN 978-960-7916-94-5.
Tselenti-Papadopoulou, Niki G. (2002). Οι Εικονες της Ελληνικης Αδελφοτητας της Βενετιας απο το 16ο εως το Πρωτο Μισο του 20ου Αιωνα: Αρχειακη Τεκμηριωση [The Icons of the Greek Brotherhood of Venice from 1600 to the First Half of the 20th Century] (PDF). Athens: Ministry of Culture Publication of the Archaeological Bulletin No. 81. ISBN 960-214-221-9.

Cheers

Tzim78 (talk) 13:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore historically: Zeuxis, Timanthes and Parrhasius were painters who belonged to the Ionian School of painting. The Ionian School flourished during the 4th-century BCE. The school also featured literature and philosophy.^[1]^[2]^[3]

Tzim78 (talk) 16:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cheerio

References

^ Clement, Clara Erskine (2024). A History of Art for Beginners and Students: Painting, Sculpture, Architecture Painting: An Artistic Journey Through Time. New Delhi, India: Namasakr Books. p. 14. ISBN 9782023122518.
^ Dyer, Thomas Henry (1882). On Imitative Art, with Preliminary Remarks on Beauty, Sublimity and Taste. London, England: George Bell and Sons. p. 280-281.
^ Gilman, Daniel Coit; Peck, Harry Thurston; Colby, Frank Moore, eds. (1906). "Ionian". The New International Encyclopaedia. Vol. 10. New York, NY: Dood, Mead and Company. p. 734. Retrieved September 10, 2023.

Alternatively, if "Ionian school" refers to the ancient (BCE) schools of painting and literature, and Heptanese to the more modern (even though it's hard to find support for this is English-language sources), then we ought to sort out the disambigs and redirects. We've had Ionian School (painting) redirecting the Heptanese page since 2010, and no articles on the classic Ionian schools. Would that be a better path to a fix? Dicklyon (talk) 17:01, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, The National Gallery of Greece uses "Ionian" in its English version, but "Heptanese" in the Greek version. So I'm not inclined to believe "...if you do a simple Google search you will never find the term Ionion School referring to any of the paintings, icons or artists". WP:COMMONNAME refers to terms in the English language; there are all sorts of things for which we do not translate the local term - eg Early Netherlandish painting, not "Flemish Primitives" . But more evidence is needed. It is ridiculous that "Ionian school (painting)", which redirects here, is not even mentioned in the lead. Is that you, Tzim78? Johnbod (talk) 16:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I put that back in the lead (Ionian Islands school or Ionian school); I see both in sources, but haven't sorted out their relative usage for this and the ancient topics. Dicklyon (talk) 17:16, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note – Looking at the Greek Wikipedia via Google Translate, I find Heptanisian, Iptanesian, Heptanian, and Ionian (presumably because these terms have been found in parallel texts); no Heptanese. It's still Greek to me. Dicklyon (talk) 17:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What the terms in Greek are just isn't the point. Here's a catalogue entry from Bonham's, "a skilled hagiographer and portrait painter of the Ionian School" from another Greek museum, and so on. Johnbod (talk) 17:55, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that these are terms that Google Translate thinks make OK English. I don't know for sure if it's just transliterating, or if these are because they've been encountered in parallel (English–Greek) texts. But I certainly agree that Ionian is the much more common term. Do they distinguish the ancient vs more modern Ionian schools in works such as you found? I think we need to represent both here eventually. Dicklyon (talk) 20:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, they should be kept apart. The classical school (of vase painting, right?) is pretty minor. What "Google Translate thinks make OK English" is no argument at all. Johnbod (talk) 23:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the literature at least, I also find "the Eptanesian (Ionian Islands) school". Maybe "Ionian Islands" is the best way in English to distinguish from ancient Ionia. Dicklyon (talk) 19:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Support per above. Johnbod (talk) 23:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose A page should be created for the Ionian School of painting which flourished during the 4th century BCE. Zeuxis, Timanthes and Parrhasius belonged to the Ionian School of painting and there were probably more painters. Two schools of painting with the same name would confuse readers.Tzim78 (talk) 20:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's why the proposed name is disambiguated! If needed, more specific disam could be adopted. What would the proposed new page on ancient painters actually say - not a single work by any artist in it survives. A redirect to Ancient Greek painting is enough. Johnbod (talk) 12:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Greece and WikiProject Visual arts have been notified of this discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 05:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Final relist, to allow for additional participation BilledMammal (talk) 05:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Clement, Clara Erskine (2024). A History of Art for Beginners and Students: Painting, Sculpture, Architecture Painting: An Artistic Journey Through Time. New Delhi, India: Namasakr Books. p. 14. ISBN 9782023122518.

[2] Dyer, Thomas Henry (1882). On Imitative Art, with Preliminary Remarks on Beauty, Sublimity and Taste. London, England: George Bell and Sons. p. 280-281.

[3] Gilman, Daniel Coit; Peck, Harry Thurston; Colby, Frank Moore, eds. (1906). "Ionian". The New International Encyclopaedia. Vol. 10. New York, NY: Dood, Mead and Company. p. 734. Retrieved September 10, 2023.

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