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Oak Park,Michgan

Oak Park Michgan is not gang infested. There is not that much crime in Oak Park

It does not say that Oak Park was gang infested, it says "a poor, crime-ridden suburb", and according to Joseph Bruce's book, when he lived in Oak Park in the 1980's, that was the case.Juggalobrink (talk) 17:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Oak Park is not "a poor, crime-ridden suburb" and I think that statement is really inaccurate. Certain parts of it are poor but it's kind of an equivocal thing. Detroit is poor compared to Oak Park but Oak Park is located in Oakland County which is the richest county in Michigan and it borders Huntington Woods which is also one of the richest cities in Oakland County. I really think that Joeseph Bruce is just trying to exaggerate things in his book. Tall Midget (talk) 10:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Oak Park is nice, always has been, in the 80s it was a jewish community. There are no gangs in Oakland County except for Pontiac, Oak park is actually one of the nicest cities to border Detroit. This article really needs to be revised. It casts a bad image of the citizens who raise thier families there.

Article rehaul

There's a lot more work to be done. There should be some stuff about the Eminem/ICP feud added, and if anyone has any books about the group, they should look through them and see if any of the citations to ICP's online biography can be replaced with citations to those books. Citing printed sources is very important if you want to see this article listed as a featured article at some point. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 19:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC))

GAN on hold

  • General practice is to name the band members as early as possible.
  • Free infobox image would be needed for FA.
  • "Although the duo has been criticized for the violent content and perceived immaturity of their lyrics,[6] they have earned one platinum album and four gold albums." - I don't get the although; one of these shouldn't affect the other
  • "work with the group" --> work with them would sound better
  • "and the Insane Clown Posse formed the record label Psychopathic Records, and released " - doesn't read well with lots of "and"
  • "Disney had stopped production of The Great Milenko to avoid further controversy, Disney denied" - repetition?
  • "In David Browne's review of the album for Entertainment Weekly, Browne writes" - keep tense consistent and just use "he" the second time
  • "During the 20 August 1999 episode of The Howard Stern Show, Bruce and Utsler clashed with fellow guest Sharon Osbourne, a rift that emerged from an earlier incident in which Coal Chamber, whom Osbourne managed at the time, were fired by the Insane Clown Posse two shows into their tour with Biohazard, due to poor ticket sales, leading Coal Chamber to try and sue Bruce and Utsler for breach of contract" - eek, long painful sentence
  • You should say how much their albums sold after that Osbourne bet.
  • Newspapers in italics (I noticed The Onion) need italics.

And leave me a note when done. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 11:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I've completed all tasks but the free image, and the albums sold. King iMatthew 2008 21:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The last one (album sales following the Osbourne bet) was tough, but I finally found something. GaryColemanFan (talk) 23:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
And passed! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Good job guys, and MCL. Now get this to FA. :) - Merzbow (talk) 19:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

wrong information

just so you know, the Insane Clown Posse have two (2) platinum albums —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.72.215 (talk) 19:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

  • At the time this article was written, The Amazing Jeckel Brothers had not been certified platinum by the RIAA, whose website states that the album was certified on May 14th. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 08:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC))

The following isn't entirely correct, as Ringmaster did not go gold until years later, after island re-released it (i.e. - national touring in 1994 did not make the album go gold) - 'The group's second studio album, The Ringmaster, was released on March 8, 1994 and resulted in the selling out of larger clubs in Detroit, allowing the group to tour nationwide, which resulted in increased sales[13] and The Ringmaster was certified gold.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.119.10.10 (talk) 17:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Image

I took a tip from the Radiohead article, which uses a Photomontage of bandmember photos, and combined the individual photos of ICP into one file so that they can be used in the Infobox. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 08:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC))

That looks really good! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Clever. Can I suggest that you play around with the gamma in Photoshop to lighten the background on Shaggy's? - Merzbow (talk) 17:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Copyedit

Hi guys, I'll be checking the language for the next hour or less. In Use tag going up :) -Samuel tan85 (talk) 03:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Only managed to go through half the article; details below.-Samuel tan85 (talk) 04:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Copyedit - June 2008

I made some very minor language improvements, for example overuse of commas,superfluous words and over-convoluted sentences. Language-wise, the authors need to use a lot less commas, which is rendering many sentences meaningless (so I have no idea how to edit them). Also, some portions need to be re-written for non-expert readers.

I am listing here some examples of awkward phrases which are better left to other experts to handle:

(1)"Insane Clown Posse has dedicated followers, known as Juggalos and Juggalettes."

This sentence is confusing because it makes a non-expert reader wonder why these followers are called these odd names. Consider changing it to something like "...followers, whom the band calls Juggalos..."

(2)"The group starred in their own feature film, Big Money Hustlas, formed their own wrestling federation..."

The use of "their own" is too ambiguous. Consider changing it to something like "... starred in a film they produced..."

(3)"Bruce and Utsler began listening to hip hop, performed at local clubs, along with Utsler's brother, John Kickjazz, as a group under the same name, and released the self-produced EP Dog Beats in 1991."

I personally don't mind a lot of commas, but in this case the convulated structure of the sentence kills the meaning. Someone who knows that topic should consider paraphrasing this.

(4)"... spirits resembling a travelling carnival..."

Now, maybe my imagination is not good enough, but I can't see how spirits can resemble a travelling carnival. Do you mean that he saw a dream of spirits travelling in a carnival?

(5)"...resulted in the selling out of larger clubs in Detroit, allowing the group to tour nationwide..."

Once again, ambiguous to non-expert readers. Are you trying to say that the fact that those clubs had capacity crowds allowed the group to tour nationwide? Should rephrase.

(6)"Two of its members, Jamie Spaniolo and Paul Robert Methric, formed the group Twiztid, with Spaniolo performing under the name "Jamie Madrox" and Methric performing under the name "Monoxide Child", and eventually signed with Psychopathic."

Another convoluted sentence. Who exactly signed with Psychopathic?

These are all the examples I will show here, to save space. Experts in this topic should consider re-reading the whole article from a non-expert point of view to rephrase points like these.

That's all for now :)

-Samuel tan85 (talk) 04:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Copy edit - July 2008

I agree with Samuel tan85's comments, where an expert on this subject is needed. I have reworded a few things here and there, and have done some general article clean-up. Here are some examples of edits I've made:

  • Moving punctuation inside quotations
  • Creating wikilinks for terms, people, and dates in the article text
  • Spelling out some numbers (e.g., "14" as "fourteen")
  • Removing informal language
    • hard → difficult
    • show up → attend / appear
    • since → because (when not used in a time-relation context)
    • high on → favored
  • Created subsections for major sections to make the article easier to read

The Calm

The CD the calm is not discussed at all in this article, it was the first release after the jokers card's making it seem important to me. Anyone want to edit this and add the Calm. thanks MCL MACK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.40.67.87 (talk) 06:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The article doesn't have to discuss every single little thing that the group puts out. It discusses all of the main LPs to date and a few of the EPs. There's really no need to write about every single release. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC))

totally missing the eye of the storm >.< —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.11.14.82 (talk) 22:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

More wrong info

ICP is not from Del ray. Even there personal pages say they are from diferent parts of Mi.--1WickedClown (talk) 10:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

This is referring to where the band Insane Clown Posse was formed, not where each member was born. Juggalobrink (talk) 15:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Your still wrong, you need to read Behind the Paint, a lil closer, ICP was not formed in Del Ray, sigh....must I cite the pages that say where they got started? or can you do more research besides for half a page of wrasslin info?--1WickedClown (talk) 06:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The Insane Clown Posse formed in Alex Abbiss' basement. Alex Abbiss lived in Del Ray. Hence, Insane Clown Posse was formed in Del Ray.Juggalobrink (talk) 14:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong again, the Insane Clown Posse, was formed in a dream that Violent J had about the Dark Carnival approaching, now if you are speaking about the "Inner city posse" they did hang in Del Ray quite a bit, but ICP was not formed in Del Ray.--1WickedClown (talk) 05:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me help you here, you say you have Behind the Paint? Read pages 173-181. Inner City Posse held a meeting in Alex Abbiss' basement, where they decided to change into Insane Clown Posse. After they made the change, Violent J had the dream of the Dark Carnival. They were Insane Clown Posse before he had the dream.Juggalobrink (talk) 16:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


ICP hip hop?

Plus the rest of the Psychopathic Family on here has been labeled as "hip hop" are ya,ll so sure that hip hop is ICPs style of music? ICP is far from being hip hop, can this be changed? Violent J has stated before, such as on the Shockumentary, that what they do is rap mixed in with rock & roll. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1WickedClown (talk • contribs) 05:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

  • While horrorcore/acid rap is a form of hip hop that fuses the lyrical content of heavy metal with a hip hop attitude and beats, I don't think ICP would generally be considered to be a rap rock/rapcore band. They don't tour with a live band, for example. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 20:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC))
  • I think that the easiest way to explain what Ibaranoff24 is trying to say is that according to Wikipedia's rules, "Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop)." So while ICP are horrorcore/rap rock/Midwest hip hop/everything else, Hip hop is what all of those categories fall under. Juggalobrink (talk) 21:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

So why not just call them rap artists? Hip hop they are not, I have seen many bands on wiki that are under different sub labels of genres of music, why you guys are so anal I will never know.--1WickedClown (talk) 04:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

So for the sake of being "featured" you will call ICP a hip hop band? Now theres an oscar waiting to happen. Here is my advise, start your own Psychopathic related website, and stop worrying about being "featured" on wiki so much. Juggalos in the future will see this and say "what the fuck?" ICP a hip hop band, and just laugh at the amount of thought that went into that.--65.202.85.12 (talk) 09:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

  • You said it yourself that ICP is a rap band, and even listen to "Play My Song" off The Tempest, they call themselves a rap band. So we can agree they are a rap band yes? Ok, now type in "rap music" in wikipedia, what comes up? Hip Hop. That is why they are label as hip hop.Juggalobrink (talk) 11:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Type in Wicked shit, and it takes you to Horrorcore, where in the article it says Psychopathic is representitives of it.--1WickedClown (talk) 05:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

End your own story, dick. In the header it says, and I will quote "Genre(s)" So my question is if you have to be as "general" as possible, why does it say "Genre(s)"? Just asking. I also see you have not answered my question about jacob rodoba below.--65.198.207.11 (talk) 02:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

  • I did not create wikipedia, so I do not know. I already showed you the rule where it states to say Hip Hop rather than Horrorcore or Wicked Shit. I'm sorry you refuse to acknowledge that.Juggalobrink (talk) 03:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Story of Tim McLean

I think this story should be added to the page. Tim was a Juggalo. Show some love. R.I.P Tim.--1WickedClown (talk) 02:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

  • That would actually belong in the Juggalo page, under the "Alleged Juggalo crimes" section (even though it was of an attack on a juggalo). The only thing is that the press has to relate this attack to being a juggalo. It's getting international coverage, but I haven't seen anything yet that lists Tim being a juggalo as a reason for the attack. So while he is a juggalo, the press has yet to use that information, so for now nothing should be written. If they change the motive from a random attack to an attack on Tim because he was a juggalo, then it would be appropriate to add.Juggalobrink (talk) 18:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Would not also the jacob roboda story, or whatever the loons name was, story also belong under the Juggalo page, rather then under the Tempest headline? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1WickedClown (talk • contribs) 05:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

  • It is already in the Juggalo page. And I'm not the one who put it in this page.Juggalobrink (talk) 03:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
  • 1WickedClown, the section about Jacob D. Robida is on this page because it is relevant for two reasons, the first being that the story appeared in many major newspapers, and the second being that Psychopathic Records acknowledged the story on the Insane Clown Posse website. I find it interesting that you say that it's "speculation" to "Say his actions had anything to do with ICP", but you have no problem with those events being included in the Juggalo page being that Robida was not, in fact, a juggalo, but simply a scumbag that just happened to listen to Insane Clown Posse's music. The official denouncement of his actions by Psychopathic and ICP is enough of a reason to include this story here. If Tim McClean's story is acknowledged on the Insane Clown Posse website, it can be included here. And it would add a good balance to the article if ICP acknowledged McClean's death. There's absolutely no assertion of notability without any official publicized connection to Insane Clown Posse. The only official reports of the story don't mention the fact that McClean enjoyed ICP's music. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 16:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC))

I went ahead and removed it. No way it belonged under the Tempest headline. Plus it was already in the Juggalo page. Maybe some more info on the Tempest can be added? Such as, the album was supposed to be the storm.

Tims funeral went off without a hitch yesterday, all those lunatic baptists decided they did not want to deal with the Juggalos.--1WickedClown (talk) 08:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

  • You are right about the Robida paragraph being unrelated to The Tempest. I corrected this by moving the Hell's Pit into into a new section covering both albums and the controversy. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 16:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC))

If you are not going to have the story of Tim McLean, then there is no need to have the story of this idiot, who was not a Juggalo on ICPs main page. I would like to see where it states, that robida was a Juggalo, I heard he had some ICP things on his computer, but that does not classify him as a fan. Do we have citations where it says he was a Juggalo?--1WickedClown (talk) 04:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Firstly, we've been over the reasons why Robida is mentioned here. Secondly, Wikipedia does not refer to Robida as a juggalo on this or any other page. I updated the references. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 06:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC))

As a matter of fact Twiztid did acknowledge Tim at the Gathering this year, I thought all ya,ll who ran this page were wiki buffs? Why have the information under an ICP release? why have it on the ICP page at all? Something better for the page would be talking about Psychopathic giving away free turkeys to homeless shelters in Detroit on Thanksgiving, at least that pretains to ICP, unlike the nazi loving P.O.S you have to have on there main page. No wonder ya,ll cant get this page nominated.--1WickedClown (talk) 08:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

  • It's all related to references. If good sources cannot be found, we cannot add anything to the article. I've searched Google News and did not turn up one result for the Tim McClean story that mentioned that he enjoyed Insane Clown Posse's music. Saying that his death was acknowledged at the Gathering is not good enough. We need a verifiable source. If McClean was acknowledged on the official website, we could add the information. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 17:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC))

Also, what is a ICP "fan" commonly called? A JUGGALO. Exzactly how you refer to robida.--1WickedClown (talk) 08:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Well, no, a juggalo isn't a person who simply listens to ICP. I'm surprised that you claim to be a juggalo, but you do not get this. Here's what Shaggy has to say: "A Juggalo is a frame of mind and what not. And I was a Juggalo before we started with ICP." "You don't even to have to fuckin' neccessarily listen to Hatchet shit to be a Juggalo. I mean, that's bullshit. Juggalos are Juggalos." (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 17:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC))

Shaggy also talks outta his ass a lot, like the rest of us. If you read, "behind the paint" Bruce said before the Juggalos there were Floobs. He also states, that the first time he used the word "Juggalo" was at an Insane Clown Posse show during Ringmaster era I believe. Shaggy may have had a Juggalo like complex to him, but before the Juggalos there were Floobs, get it straight.--1WickedClown (talk) 06:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I,m done talking on this message, it was posed to be about Tim McLean! If you do not want to acknowledge him here thats fine, just so you know, you claim Juggalo I suppose, so just keep wallowing in the fact you want that piece of shit robida on the main page (when the piece of shit is already on the Juggalo page) but yet you lack to even mention an even more heinous case involving a murdered Juggalo. REMEMBER THAT.--1WickedClown (talk) 06:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

  • I don't want Robida's story on the page. I want any properly sourced, relevant information related to the group to be included here. Yes, the story is negative, but per NPOV, we are not supposed to only include positive news stories related to ICP. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 08:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC))

Remove story of robida

It does not even fit where it is put. Here is the info on the release of the Tempest, then all of a sudden you break to the story of the fag...oops mean "fan" of ICP, who just so happend to go into a gay bar with a hatchet and attacks. Where is the song that ICP denounces homosexuals? Matter of fact I dont think they ever have, they have used the word 'fag' before, but not in a way of saying "go out to a gay bar and murder gays with a hatchet" I propose the story be taken down, and the story of Tim McLean be added. Tim was a Juggalo, you can see that on his myspace. --1WickedClown (talk) 06:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

  • No one's saying that ICP denounced homosexuals. What the article actually says is that a nutcase, who just happened to listen to the group's music, did something that was well-publicized to the point where this case is relevant enough to be mentioned on this page. There are no verifiable sources that mention the fact that McLean enjoyed ICP's music. No one has a problem with McClean's story being added. But we don't have any verifiable sources for that story to be added! Do you not understand this? (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 08:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC))

Is myspace not a verifiable source? Or how about the video Faygoluvers.net posted on the Twiztid seminar this year? They give an R.I.P to Tim McLean.--1WickedClown (talk) 09:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

  • MySpace is not a verifiable source. Faygoluvers is a fan site. And McLean's death still needs to be mentioned on ICP's official website for it to be mentioned on the Insane Clown Posse article. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 09:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC))

wrong

violent j had a panic attack, yes, many of them. but about the scissors meeting his dreadlocks..... it was not just random.... he tried to strangle himself with his dreads and by order of the doctors cut them off. i'm reading through you're page and seeing many things that you have quoted wrong... as a true juggalo, i'd like to see you go through and correct yourself. people read your page because they're curious, give them the right info —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.209.233.47 (talk) 20:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Page 382 reads:

"In the chaos, Rob and Billy had to leave me in the dressing room for a minute. I grabbed a pair of scissors on the counter, and went in the bathroom. I started cutting all my dreadlocks off. It's a wonder I didn't kill myself, actually. I guess what I was thinking was that if I cut my dreadlocks off, the tour would be over with, and my brother would make me go home until my hair grew back. Fifteen minutes later, I realized that made no sense, but by then, all my hair way laying in little ropes all over the bathroom flood."

So please refrain from pretending that you are reading the book and telling false information.Juggalobrink (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


Bruce does say before the Juggalos there was Floobs, can this be added?--1WickedClown (talk) 05:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm going to add it to Joe Bruce's page when I add all the info from Behind the Paint, which should be within the next few days. The only reasons it won't be in this article is because 1) the Floobs were only Joe and Rob Bruce, so it wasn't the Insane Clown Posse, and 2) being Floobs are actually pretty irrelivent. Floobs are basicly scrubs, and it's only relevant toward the Bruces' because it helps describe their outcast/scrubby style, as well as being a semi-basis for the Juggalo.Juggalobrink (talk) 13:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
    • I think that this would be relevant in the Juggalo article, also, as it would provide some important back story and details that would help readers that are unfamiliar with the subject matter better understand what a juggalo is. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 11:03, 23 August 2008 (UTC))

Wrong, I am a Floob, as are many other, and it being "irrelivent" is your POV. So is, "semi-basis for the Juggalo" as Joe states, before they were Juggalos, they were Floobs, now a days I would much rather claim Floob, with all the fake ass posers runnin around claiming Juggalo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.198.207.11 (talk) 03:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Irrelivent is not my POV. A Floop is completely irrelivent toward Insane Clown Posse as a whole. It's relivent toward Joe Bruce, it's relivent toward Juggalo, but it has nothing to do with the group Insane Clown Posse. As a group, they have not mentioned the word, alluded to the word, or shown any care for the word. Juggalo is relivent toward ICP, Floop is not.Juggalobrink (talk) 16:12, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually if you look at the definition that Joe gives of a Floob, Joey was also a Floob. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.198.207.11 (talk) 03:09, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

FLOOB, get it right floop.--1WickedClown (talk) 03:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Filmography?

I think with ICP appearing in both Big money hustlas, and Rustlas and they have also appeared in, Backstage sluts. Should this be added to the page?--1WickedClown (talk) 04:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Very good young padawan, but what the hell is Road Rage? I am on the internet quite a bit, and have heard nothing of this. Where did this information come from?--1WickedClown (talk) 03:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

And where is the citation?(needed)--1WickedClown (talk) 09:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

  • If you are on the internet so much, and you know so much about ICP, then I don't know why you've never heard of WFKO or the Weekly Freekly Weekly. Anyway, the citation is clearly there. The information is stated at 10:47 at the news bar on the bottom in the video. Please stop trying to cause trouble. Thank you.Juggalobrink (talk) 15:11, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I watched the freekly, and it said Road Rage????? It was a working title at the time, wich became Death Racers, dam get a clue. 

Plus I will cause all I like, silly lil you. Go find a playground with kids your age, K?
  • Your first comment will be taken care of. As for the second, I've already asked you to refrain causing trouble. If you continue to post incivil comments, then you will be blocked from wikipedia.Juggalobrink (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Comics and RPG

I do not believe there is much if anything on wikipedia about the comics or RPG spawned from the dark carnival, should I add them, or are they up there (I couldn't find them at least).-- Shurikenfreak (talk) 20:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

WCW and TNA

If there are any reliable sources on ICP's tenure in both WCW and TNA, I think it should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.190.26.140 (talk) 09:27, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ya, I've added the stuff to Joseph Bruce's page, but I have no time really to add all the stuff relevant to ICP as a whole to this page. Hopefully somebody else who has the time can.Juggalobrink (talk) 19:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Pertaining to early history

Does anyone have information about bassment cuts? or Intelligence and violence? Or for thaty matter, Enter the ghetto zone and ghetto territory? I think it should be included in the early history but i really dont know much about the EP's, just the order they were released... and that intelligence and violence/bassment cuts were done on karaoke machines. Mastermarth (talk) 08:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

A Photo of ICP without Face Paint

This is a mugshot collection of Insane Clown Posse and some other bands after a fight at a Waffle House.

http://www.goofball.com/mugshots/INC20000824180017

This photo should be in the article

Yeah it should Portillo (talk) 09:40, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

the template

the template doess not show up properly on all of the pages, why is this?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.23.30 (talk) 02:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

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