Talk:Ilomilo (song)

ilomilo discussion from userpage

What made you delete the article on ilomilo. It explained on why the song was created and how it charted in multiple countries Beatleswillneverdie (talk) 13:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

every song on dont smile at me has an article. Why can’t this one too? Beatleswillneverdie (talk) 13:19, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Beatleswillneverdie: Fantastic logic. "Every song on this artist's other release has an article, this should too". Basically every song off of Don't Smile at Me is a single. "Ilomilo" isn't on that EP, and it's just an album track. Not every Billie Eilish song needs its own article. And even after @Davidwr: telling you so below, you go and reinstate the link to Ilomilo (Billie Eilish song) on When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?, copying Sulfurboy's edit summary. I don't think you even know what you're doing. Ss112 17:16, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Additional information: This was recently accepted as an Articles for creation submission, see Ilomilo (Billie Eilish song) and its page history. This means it has been reviewed. After you changed the page to a redirect, the same editor who created the song article, Beatleswillneverdie, created a new AFC submission that is substantially identical at Draft:ilomilo (song). I've requested a history merge. The end result is that both versions will live at Draft:ilomilo (song) for now, leaving the redirect you created intact.

After the history merge is complete, consider working with the original AFC reviewer, Sulfurboy, to determine if this should be accepted or not. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 14:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you (talk). Ssr said the article didn’t have enough information when it explained on why it was created and where it charted. I created the new article because I thought the other one was deleted. I added more info on that one. I’m still new to writing articles, so forgive me if I mess up. Beatleswillneverdie (talk) 15:26, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Davidwr: Then I believe you should redirect Ilomilo (Billie Eilish song) while Draft:Ilomilo (song) exists. We don't need two copies of the same thing to exist even now. Sulfurboy reinstated the article for Ilomilo, and seems to feel slighted that I redirected something that they accepted through AfC, when it never should have been accepted in the first place. Sulfurboy believes the article passes WP:NSONGS as is when it clearly does not. There is not substantial independent coverage of the song, and the only criteria it may meet is "Has been ranked on national or significant music or sales charts. (Note again that this indicates only that a song may be notable, not that it is notable.)" (emphasis added) Three low chart positions is not clear notability, and that's all this has going for it. The song is an album track, not a single, and has not achieved anything outside of the album. It doesn't need an article. Ss112 17:23, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Ss112, I've copied over this discussion to the page's talk page for purpose of record keeping. There looks to be quite a bit of coverage surrounding the song, particularly around the fact that it's named after an apparently popular game. Again, issues on whether this page should exist or not should be hashed out in an AfD if you feel it is needed. Sulfurboy (talk) 17:35, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Sulfurboy: Where is this substantial coverage you claim exists on the song? Because it's not demonstrated on the song article, and it should be. You claim it passes WP:NSONGS, and it clearly does not—which of the three listed criteria at NSONGS does it apparently meet? The song has not acheieved independent coverage outside of the context of the album, nor has it achieved anything on its own in terms of chart positions, so you should not have accepted the song as an article in the first place. I certainly will be taking it to AfD if it remains as a mainspace article, which it should not be as Draft:Ilomilo (song) also now exists. We don't need two articles on Wikipedia for this unnotable song, so you should consider undoing yourself at Ilomilo (Billie Eilish song), because it's clear at this point you'd revert me if I tried to redirect it again. In future, I suggest if you're reviewing a draft song article with this amount of demonstrated "coverage", you not accept it as an article then suggest other users go through AfD when they shouldn't have to. Please learn to discern what are album tracks that have not acheieved independent coverage and only charted when the album was released versus what isn't. Ss112 17:41, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Ss112, Again, take it to AfD if you have issue with it. I'm not sure what the existence of a draft article about it has to do with anything, it would just be rejected as it currently exisits in mainspace as is typical procedure. It should also be noted that something concretely passing notability guidelines via sources in the article is not a standard used in the AfC process. The standard is simply whether the article is likely to survive an AfD, your opinion that it wouldn't is countered by a couple of us saying it would, so it's something best hashed out in an AfD. Cheers. Sulfurboy (talk) 17:51, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Sulfurboy: Did you copy this discussion over from my talk page only to continue to tell me to take it to AfD? Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to this discussion, aside from your astoundingly stubborn approach to having your assessment questioned, in accepting yet another non-notable music article from an editor with very little to no knowledge of what makes a song notable (so your point that "a couple of us saying it would" survive an AfD holds basically no weight). Perhaps you should stay away from assessing music articles in future, so other users don't have to go through this pointless "take it to AfD because I'm an experienced new article partroller and I think it's notable" back-and-forth with you, yeah? You're clearly not an authority on what's notable in terms of music here—also because you still haven't actually gone through which of the criteria of WP:NSONGS it apparently meets, which is none. Cheers. Ss112 17:58, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Ss112, Not sure why you're taking this personally or being overly sensitive about it. Standard procedure if you feel an article doesn't belong in mainspace is to take it to AfD, not to undo a page creation, particularly one published out of AfC. I posted this on the page's talk page, because a conversation about the page should be had on the talk page for preservation. My recommendation of taking it to AfD is two-fold, 1) it's the pretty standard procedure if multiple editors disagree about whether a page should exist and 2) your hostility from the get go towards me and Beatleswillneverdie has made it nearly impossible to have hopes of having a rationale conversation with you. Sulfurboy (talk) 18:06, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Sulfurboy: I'm not "taking it personally", I'm annoyed that another AfC patroller like yourself seems to believe they're the gatekeeper of notability on Wikipedia and accepts piss-poor articles that now have to be dragged through an extensive AfD process when they never should have been accepted and saved us all time. Also, thanks a million for continuing to ignore my repeated request to explain which of the NSONGS criteria it apparently meets. It doesn't satisfy WP:SONGS at all. Please stop pinging me to this pointless discussion. The AfD will be filed if this stays in mainspace. Ss112 18:11, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Ss112, If this is bothering you so much, I'll stop making articles just so you don't give everyone this attitude. Beatleswillneverdie (talk) 16:25, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Beatleswillneverdie: I don't particularly care what you choose to do based on my attitude. That's on you. I just asked the other user to not ping me, so please don't ping me here either using Template:U. Thank you. Ss112 18:18, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

is the article going to be merged with the other draft

davidwr, I'm just wondering if the article will be merged with the other article I created. Beatleswillneverdie (talk) 17:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ilomilo (song)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Paparazzzi (talk · contribs) 21:15, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Expect a review soon. --Paparazzzi (talk) 21:15, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm going to fail this nomination for the following reasons:

• The artwork seems to be a fan-art. Its description does not feature any source proving it's official
• The lead section does not feature all the important content about this article, which should include reviews from critics, commercial performance, live performances...
• Music notes is not a reliable source for genres. Genres are taken from music reviews
• Ref. 4 is unreliable because it is a Twitter fan account, it's not even Billie's. Also, the source is not formatted properly
• Video games titles must be italicized, so ilomilo the video game should be written in italics
• Incorrect spelling of YouTube
• Hot Ones is not a YouTube creator, is a YouTube series by a channel called First We Feast
• "genre of the song is Alternative Pop/Rock and Indie Pop." Music genres should be written all in lowercase
• When talking about the meaning of the track, you should mention who said those comments, if it was the singer herself or some music reviewers. With that being said, it is not really good to rely on one single source
• More sources from multiple reviewers are needed to describe the composition of the song
• Release and Reception → Release and reception
• The "Release and reception" does not give much details about the song's release as a single, it does not states in which country was it release, or in which format
• The information about the release should be at the beginning of the first paragraph, that's why it's called Release and reception
• debuted at number 62 on the US Billboard Hot 100 for a week during the beginning of April 2019. → mention the exact date
• It also topped the charts in multiple countries, including: Australia, Canada, Germany, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Besides the fact that this is not referenced, it is not accurate
• "It was certified gold in Canada, Australia and the United States." Again, no sources backing this up
• ""Ilomilo" was met with critical appraise upon release." This is WP:SYNTH. You should remove it unless you find a source stating that the song was indeed "met with critical appraise"
• Only three reviews? I'm pretty sure that more can de added, given how big the album was
• Add reviews from articles dedicated to the song itself, not only album reviews (if you are able to find some)
• Remove the "Various" row from the Release history section, because that's the album's release date
• Some of the titles from the references are written in upper-case, which is not correct.
• A Live performances section should be added

• With all of those points, I'm failing this nomination. There's still work to be done to this article, it could easily be a GA in the future but not at this point. It needs many changes and additions which can't be completed in a few days. I would highly recommend to nominate this article later at WP:GOCE to review the prose. And I really hope the nominator does not feel discouraged with this result. I would also recommend him to ask a more experienced user in these topics to review the article before he nominates it again for GA. Paparazzzi (talk) 17:20, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

@Paparazzzi: Hi there! Note that I've rewritten the entire article and nominated it for GAN again. All the best; Cartoon network freak (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Review

@DarklyShadows:I'm going to start a review of this article as I promised you before.

Lead and infobox

• "Ilomilo" is a song by American singer Billie Eilish. It was released on her debut studio album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?, through Darkroom and Interscope Records on March 29, 2019. → "Ilomilo" is a song by American singer Billie Eilish, from her debut studio album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? (2019).
• It later was released as the seventh single from the album on April 10, 2020 through Universal Music and impacted contemporary hit radio in Italy.[1] Eilish and her brother Finneas O'Connell co-wrote the song, with the latter producing it. → The singer wrote the track with its producer, Finneas O'Connell. Universal Music sent the song to Italian contemporary hit radio on April 10, 2020, as the album's seventh single.
• "It is preceded by "Bury a Friend" on its parent album, and the beginning instrumental of "Ilomilo" is featured at the end of its preceding track." Move this to the beginning of the second paragraph of the Background section
• Upon its release, "Ilomilo" was a commercial success, reaching number 62 on the US Billboard Hot 100, as well as on the charts in Australia, Canada, Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands. →→ Upon its release, "Ilomilo" reached number 62 on the US Billboard Hot 100, and entered the charts in Australia, Canada, Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands.
• "In April 2020, it reached number one on the Shazam chart in Italy.[2]" Move this to the Reception section
• There's no mention of the music video later on the body of the article; besides that, its mention in the lead is unsourced

Background

• "The song was inspired by the computer game ilomilo, which is a 2010 puzzle game where the goal is to reunite two characters named "Ilo" and "Milo".[3] In an interview, Eilish states: "I used to play ilomilo a lot. I loved ilomilo, that was like my favorite game in the world. It's this game where it's these two little creatures – one is named ilo and the other's named milo. It's this sort of anti-gravity world where there's all these little blocks and they start apart from each other. The idea is you just get to each other and when they get to each other they just hug, there's no prize"→ remove what's in bold, because it is already explained in the previous sentence

Lyrics

• "According to MTV..." what's written in the first paragraph does not come from the MTV source, but the Popbuzz source
• "She is afraid that her loved one will depart and never return. She believes that the love they share is incomparable to what she will find in the outside world. Ultimately, the song finishes with the chorus, where she realizes that she is alone and her loved one is gone. She is unaware of where they are and wonders if they'll ever return" this is not supported by any source
• There's a lack of information regarding the composition of the song. You should mention the length, genre, what critics have said the song is about, a comment by the singer about the meaning of the song...

Release and reception

• I would consider to move the information about the song's release to the Background section. It seems really weird to be mixed with the reception
• ""Ilomilo" quickly became viral and reached number one on the Shazam chart." → After its release as a single, "Ilomilo" reached number one on the Shazam chart in Italy
• B-sides & Reel seems to be a blog to me. Unless you can prove they are experienced editors who have worked in other publications, remove the reference
• Something that I remember I suggested you in the GA review was to add more reviews about the song. I can understand songs about Albanian or Romanian artists having only three or less reviews because they are not that well-known, but we are talking about a Billie Eilish song from her most successful album to date. Find more reviews and add them

Live performances

• If it's possible, describe something about each performance of the song, including clothes Eilish used, what she did on stage while performing the track, any review from each performance

References

• If I'm not wrong, I remember I told you in the GA review that the titles of the sources should not be written all in caps. For example, " "BILLIE EILISH'S WHEN WE ALL FALL ASLEEP: A COMPLETE BREAKDOWN FROM FINNEAS O'CONNELL" is wrong, but "Billie Eilish's When We All Fall Asleep: A Complete Breakdown from Finneas O'Connell" is correct.

Overall commentary

• I think there's still a lot to do with this article before it can be re-nominated for GA. I would suggest you to read other music articles to get an idea of how this article can be structured (for example, Bad Guy (Billie Eilish song), Fix a Heart, Mr. Saxobeat, Drake Would Love Me, Diamonds (Rihanna song), to name a few). Regards, Paparazzzi (talk) 04:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Paparazzzi:Thank you so much for the review! I really do appreciate it!! DarklyShadows (talk)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ilomilo (song)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kyle Peake (talk · contribs) 07:49, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Coming later today --Kyle Peake (talk) 07:49, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Infobox and lead

• Remove source used to verify the length
• Should just be O'Connell under producer since we already know his forename
• "The track was sent to" → "The song was sent to"
• "Universal Music Group as the record's seventh" → "Universal Music Group, as the album's seventh"
• "co-wrote "Ilomilo"," → "co-wrote it,"
• "handled its production" → "handled the production"
• "instrumentation, "Ilomilo" was heavily" → "instrumentation, the song was heavily"
• Put the target to the puzzle video game on the four words "of the same name"
• "It also references" → "The former also references"
• "predecessor on the album" → "predecessor on the track list" to avoid re-instating the album in this para
• "addresses several lyrical topics" → "addresses several lyrical topics within "Ilomilo""
• "whilst her distorted and stuttering" → "while her distorted and stuttering"
• ""Ilomilo" was performed live" → "the song was performed live"
• "Eilish's 2019 When We All Fall Asleep Tour and 2020 Where Do We Go? World Tour," → "Eilish's When We All Fall Asleep Tour and Where Do We Go? World Tour in 2019 and 2020, respectively."
• "as well as released an animated visualizer for on April 24, 2020." → "On April 24, 2020, an animated visualizer was released for the song."
• Are you sure higher chart positions shouldn't be mentioned in the lead?
• "Canada and the United States" → "Canada, and the United States"

 Done

Background

• Retitle to Background and release
• Img needs alt text
• ""Ilomilo" is the eleventh track on Eilish's debut studio album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?, released for digital download and streaming on March 29, 2019 by Darkroom and Interscope Records." → "On March 29, 2019, "Ilomilo" was released as the eleventh track on Eilish's debut studio album When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?."
• "was eventually sent to" → "was later sent to"
• "as the record's seventh" → "as the album's seventh"
• "brother Finneas O'Connell; the latter solely" → "brother Finneas O'Connell, the latter of which solely"
• Target mastering and mixing to Mastering (audio) and Audio mixing (recorded music), respectively
• "credited as a studio personnel" → "credited as studio personnel"

 Done

Composition and lyrical interpretation

• AllMusic should not have a space within it
• It is Jon Pareles not John Pareles and use the appropriate wikilink
• "to sound like she" → "to sound as if she"
• "and is played over" → "and it is played over"
• Put the wikilink to the video game on "of the same name"
• "is to reunite two" → "is reuniting two" since to and two close together doesn't read well in prose
• "have associated the text" → "have associated the lyrical content" to specify what text you are referring to
• "and to suicidal thoughts" → "and suicidal thoughts"
• "reference "Bury a Friend" (2019)" → "reference the single "Bury a Friend" (2019)"
• "its predecessor on" → "the song's predecessor on"
• ""Bury a Friend" in turn ends → "the former in turn ends" to avoid stating the title too much
• "in an MTV interview" → "in an interview with MTV"
• "who called it" → "who called the track"
• "With the availability of" → "Following the availability of"
• "On the same occasion" → "At the same time"
• "The song also reached modest peaks..." too many refs at the end of this sentence, so add them after each country: "Australia,[15] Canada,[16]" etc.
• "It has notably been awarded gold certifications" → "It has since been certified gold"
• "was released on Eilish's" → "was released to Eilish's"
• "in June" → "in June of that year"
• "Whilst performed at" → "While it was performed by her at"
• "in August" → "in August 2019"
• "the singer further performed" → "Eilish further performed"
• "In April 2020" → "In April of that year"

 Done

Credits and personnel

• Any specific order here?

 Done Sorted by last names. Cartoon network freak (talk) 16:29, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Charts

• Good

Certifications

• Good

References

• May want to run the tool again as some refs appear to not be archived
• Copyvio score looks fairly good
• Remove Tidal from ref 3's title since it is cited as the publisher
• Ref 5 should cite Pareles, Jon as author instead
• PopBuzz should not be italicised on ref 9
• The author for ref 12 is not formatted in the consistent manner with the rest of the article
• Remove ref 14 per WP:RSP
• Missing accessdate for ref 22
• Refs 24 and 26 are from an unreliable source

Final comments and verdict

 On hold for a week, as you will be able to fix the changes in that time. --Kyle Peake (talk) 15:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake: Thank you very much for the review! Your comments have been solved. Greets; Cartoon network freak (talk) 17:27, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cartoon network freak: You still have not removed the unreliable Forbes ref --Kyle Peake (talk) 05:11, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake: My bad, I forgot to. I found a better source (Insider) now. Greets; Cartoon network freak (talk) 05:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

@Cartoon network freak: ✓ Pass on this now, thanks for co-operating and good to hear from you again! --Kyle Peake (talk) 05:58, 6 May 2020 (UTC)