Talk:Idris (prophet)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 10:59, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

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Idris (Islamic Prophet) → Idris (prophet) — or Idris (Muslim prophet) or Islamic view of Enoch. The main problem is that "prophet" should not be capitalized. 155.33.172.164 (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Support the simplest solution: Idris (prophet).--Kotniski (talk) 12:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

idris was the first ever prophet to write — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.129.65 (talk) 19:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Greek Origin?

Someone should research whether Idris is the Arabization of a Grekization of Hidhr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.179.95.7 (talk) 13:43, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

According to some scholars, Idris is the Arabicized version of Greek Andreus, a character in the Alexander romance. The [n] disappears in Arabic and the original Greek name becomes Idris, the same way it has turned to Idri in Maltese which is derived from Arabic. This is significant, because many passages of the Koran have striking similarities to the (fictional) Alexander romance. That also includes the legend of Al-Khiḍr ("The Green One") which is almost certainly copied from the Alexander romance, as well as Ḏū l-Qarnain ("He with the Two Horns") which is a Quranic surname given to Emperor Heraclius, inspired by the description of Alexander the Great in the Alexander romance. See also: Alexander the Great in the Qur'an

And you could mention the flood story of the Sumerians and compare it to the story of Noah whether Biblical or Quranic. History does not always document events right away, some times an event can happen and by the time it is documented it becomes a case of "broken telephone". Islam asserts that the story in the Quran is the true story. If you're a Muslim that is what you believe. Whether Dhul Qarnain was Heraclius or not is definitely an interesting scholarly topic but ultimately irrelevant in this case. You cannot confirm or deny at this point that the Alexander Romances was or was not based on fiction. BrYounus (talk) 17:45, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Well idris is an actual Greek word, which can mean wise. (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=idris&la=greek#lexicon). It's at least as old as Homeric Greek; it was in Od.6.233. I don't know if there's just a lack of scholarship on this etymology or what but this should obviously be a candidate.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.13.104.206 (talk)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Islamic views on Abraham which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Abraham in Islam which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Ezra

An editor hopping around the 39.47.207. IP range has been adding unsourced original research about Esdras. I don't know if they're getting my messages, but the content does not cite a reliable source (or any source) and goes against WP:No original research. Ian.thomson (talk) 07:37, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

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Sentence structure revisions that will allow encompassing unanimous agreement about the Prophets (Raswl and Nabiy)

Respectfully requesting that it be put forth for consideration to slightly modify the first paragraph of the article on Prophet Idris, upon him peace, to leave room for knowledge which might not be popularly known in mainstream English written texts as of this date August 2017, however, will make sense. Simplifying the sentence and making them shorter, in this case, might actually encompass a broader amount of knowledge.

As a historical point, according to a tradition of Prophet Muhammad (prayers upon him and peace), at one time he said paraphrased as to the number of Prophets, 'there were 88,000 prophets and at another 124,000'. At the same time of presentment here, is the Wikipedia page that sights 25 Prophets in the Quran. Confer the section on Prophets at 'List of people mentioned by name in the Quran' at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_mentioned_by_name_in_the_Quran>, wherein Seth/Sheeth is not mentioned in the article at all.

This conflict of consistency, protuberant, as of today, August 22, 2017, is accentuated a second instance in the Wikipedia article 'Prophets and messengers in Islam' at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_and_messengers_in_Islam>, which also does not have Seth (transliteration), on the chart list of the 25 under the heading 'Prophets and messengers in the Qur'an'. According to the chart, Prophet Idris is number 2 in the chronology; inconsistencies like that can pose a source of questioning by those studying the subject within Wikipedia pages, especially when referring back and forth between those pages. The Wikipedia article writes 'Seth (Sheeth)' in the list of Prophets in Islamic literature, 'Numerous other prophets have been mentioned by scholars in the Hadith, exegesis, commentary as well as in the famous collections of Qisas Al-Anbiya (Stories of the Prophets). These prophets include: ...Seth (Sheeth)' Depending on which list is used, and whether there is full agreement as to them, Prophet Idris is listed as second in chronology, and third in chronology, per those lists.

Therefore, 25 Prophets is information set forth as 'known' and presented as validated in the framework of Wikipedia articles on the Prophets.

An article that states that it discusses numbers of Prophets is 'Number of Prophets', at <https://www.al-islam.org/prophethood-and-prophet-islam-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/number-prophets>

Some scholars might advise to simply leave the chronology aspect alone.

A wider agreement of the content of the first paragraph might occur, if it had revisions that result in wording along the lines of:

ʾIdrīs (Arabic: إدريس) is an ancient prophet and patriarch mentioned in the Qur'an. Some Muslims and scholars of studies on the history of Islam, believe he was a Prophet after Adam and Seth.[5] Islamic tradition has unanimously identified Idris with the biblical Enoch.[6][7] Many Muslim scholars of the classical and medieval periods also held that Idris and Hermes Trismegistus were the same person.'

-Note, the word 'third' has been omitted. The reason for this is two; if the article is going to say 'third prophet', then there should be a substantiating source, or source, such as, book 'Name, Author name' saying he was the third Prophet. Secondly, there can be a process of deducing and logic basing from the list of 25 Prophets using the Wikipedia page 'Prophets and messengers in Islam', that because those 25 are mentioned, and other names are not mentioned between, that some might come to a conclusion (whether right or wrong is another discussion) it must mean as a fact he is likely a third; however, on the point of 88,000 or 124,000 Prophets, what the count of Prophets were from Adam to Idris deserves to have a viable source. (There are accounts that there were numerous people that were living when Prophet Idris was delivering the messages he was given the responsibility.)

For those that uphold a disagreement as to other names of Prophet Idris or him being referred to by them, reference Enoch and Hermes Trismegistus, by shortening the sentence, it leaves room for the different positions on the subject.

Using the 'third prophet', if it is going to be used, might be found to be more comfortable when placed in an arrangement that is not tightly restrictive, such as, ...third of popularly known Prophets in a timeline or chronology of Prophets based on year of birth, or order of pedigree. (Keep in mind there are many miracles in connection to the many Prophets, which include miracles of time, and events of resurrections, or awakening. A famous man, Uzair, for instance is said to have rested and then awoke after 100 years. (Source 'Uzair (Ezra) - Ezra Sleeps For 100 Years' http://www.alim.org/library/biography/stories/content/SOP/1/26/Uzair%20%28Ezra%29/Ezra%20%20Sleeps%20For%20100%20Years%20)

Also, [the following portion might be moved to a separate 'talk' entry,] it might be an action to capitalize 'Prophets', to distinguish them from the simple word of prophet which could be used to refer to knowledgeable persons of any given field, prophet of science, prophet of novel writing, etc. When Prophet is capitalized, it is then clearer, and perhaps more respectful, that Prophet refers to 'Prophets of Allah', or 'Prophets as mentioned in the Quran', or 'Prophets of Islam', 'Prophets in Holy Books' like Injeel, sometimes referred to as Bible, Torah/Toreh, and so forth. This although understanding that prophet lower case is readily understood because of the context in Wikipedia article.

This talk page comment was quickly written, and might be edited with sources for substantiation.

Note: There are differing transliterations for the LughatalArabiya (Arabic Language) words for Raswl and Nabiy, including Rasool, Rasul, and so on.

Notes added September 5th, 2017: Those that have an interest in revising the Prophet Idris article, may want to consider a Wikipedia article on the same subject, originally written in Dutch titled Idris (profeet)at https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idris_(profeet). This could refer to the idea of integrating the content from each into the respective other.

The original Dutch text of the first 2 paragraphs [as of September 5, 2017]: "Idris (profeet) Zijn werkelijk naam zou Ahnoeh (Hanoeh) zijn en zou de Koran hem de bijnaam Idris hebben gegeven omdat hij veel boeken las en veel kennis opdeed. Idris is één van de achterkleinkinderen van de profeet Sheeth en zou hij in Babylonië of in Egypte hebben geleefd. Binnen de islamitische traditie wordt in het algemeen Idris, na Adam en Sheeth, als de derde profeet gezien die door God is gezonden.

Idris is zes generaties na de eerste profeet Adam geboren. Zijn lijn is: Idris bin Jared bin Mahalalel bin Kenan bin Anush bin Sheeth bin Adam. Zijn moeder zou Berra of Asvad heten. Idris had vele zonen waarvan Metusalem in de islamitische traditie de belangrijkste is, omdat het teken van profetie naar hem zou zijn overgegaan als voorvader van Mohammed. Idris zou rond zijn 40ste als profeet geroepen zijn door God en zou vier keer een openbaring van de aartsengel Gabriël hebben ontvangen en deze gedurende 105 of 120 jaar gepreekt hebben aan de mensen. Zijn optreden viel in de tijd toen mensen het vuur begonnen te aanbidden. Hij kende 72 talen en benaderde elke stam in zijn eigen taal. Hij deelde zijn tijd in tweeën, zodat hij drie dagen van de week bij zijn volk predikte en vier dagen uitsluitend besteedde aan de aanbidding van God. Slechts zeer weinig mensen zouden in hem geloven. Verder zou Idris 100 steden hebben gebouwd."

Using Google translation, the content of the webpage translated from Dutch to English says: "His real name would be Ahnoeh (Hanoeh) and the Qur'an would have given him the nickname Idris because he read a lot of books and gained a lot of knowledge. Idris is one of the great-grandchildren of the prophet Sheeth, and he would have lived in Babylon or in Egypt . Within the Islamic tradition, Idris, after Adam and Sheeth, is generally seen as the third prophet sent by God.

Idris was born six generations after the first prophet Adam. His line is: Idris bin Jared bin Mahalalel bin Kenan bin Anush bin Sheeth bin Adam . His mother would be called Berra or Asvad. Idris had many sons of which Metusalem in the Islamic tradition is the most important because the sign of prophecy had passed to him as Muhammad's ancestor. Idris would be called 40th as a prophet by God and would have received a revelation of Archangel Gabriel four times and have spoken to them for 105 or 120 years. His performance fell in time when people began to worship the fire . He knew 72 languages ​​and approached each tribe in his own language. He divided his time in two, so he preached to his people three days a week and spent four days exclusively on the worship of God. Only very few people would believe in him. Furthermore, Idris would have built 100 cities."

Note the last two paragraphs and the listing of 'Prophets in Islam , named in the Qur'an': Original Dutch: "Sommige wonderen van Idris waren het voorspellen van toekomstige profeten en hun kenmerken, de zondvloed, het weten van het aantal bladeren aan een boom en wolken op laten komen of weg laten varen. In de Koran zijn er in totaal vier aya's over Idris geopenbaard en wordt hij door God samen met de profeten Ismail en Zulkifl geloofd. Idris zou op een Asjoera-dag ten hemel zijn gevaren en is daarmee samen met Ilyas en Isa een van de drie profeten die niet gestorven zijn.

Volgens een Hadith zou Mohammed hebben gezegd: Tijdens de hemelvaart ben ik op de vierde hemel Idris tegengekomen. Gabriël zei tegen mij: "Hij die jij nu ziet, is Idris. Groet hem." Daarop groette ik hem. Hij reageerde op mijn groet en zei dan "Gegroet, rechtvaardig vriend, rechtvaardig profeet." (Overgeleverd in Bukhari en Muslim.)"

Google English translation of the webpage: "Some miracles of Idris were predicting future prophets and their characteristics, the flood , knowing the number of leaves on a tree and clouds letting go or dropping away. In the Qur'an, a total of four aya 's about Idris are revealed and he is believed by God together with the prophets Ismail and Zulkifl . Idris would be in heaven on an Asjoera day and, with Ilyas and Isa, would be one of the three prophets who did not die.

According to a Hadith , Mohammed would have said: During the ascension, I came across Idris on the fourth heaven. Gabriel said to me, "He who sees you now is Idris, greet him." Then I greeted him. He responded to my greeting and said, "Greetings, righteous friend, righteous prophet." (Delivered in Bukhari and Muslim .)"

In the list of 'Prophets in Islam , named in the Qur'an', these are the first two in the boxed section: Adam آدم Adam

Idris ادريس Henoch

Note this spelling of Henoch respective Idris. Evident is it similar to Enoch (confer 'Enoch', ipso facto in the Prophet Idris Wikipedia article in English), excepting the letter 'H'.

There is more content online using the verbatim spelling Henoch, such as 'Henoch' at https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henoch, in Dutch language. Translated into English, the entry discusses King Kaju... '(the Biblical Methusalah)' and 'in de Bijbel' translated 'in the Bible'.

Considering the both Dutch language Wikipedia entries discuss Idris/Henoch as a Prophet that 'prophets who did not die' or 'that he might not see death' (Henoch), this perhaps can be set forth in the discussion about aspects of the timeline of orders of Prophets, whether applicable or not is another discussion.

Change "the Prophet Adimun" to "the Prophet Adam?"

The first line under the "Hermes Trismegistus" sub-section of the "Identification" section reads: "A late Arabic writer wrote of the Sabaeans that their religion had a sect of star worshipers who held their doctrine to come from Hermes Trismegistus through the prophet Adimun.[29]" As far as I know, (I speak some Arabic, and am half Arab), the "un" at the end of "Adimun" is a grammatical suffix which would be removed in this case. This would turn "Adimun" into a name sounding very similar to "Adam." As far as I know, there is no prophet in Islam named Adimun, though Adam is considered the first prophet. Unless someone else has proof that "Adimun" refers to another prophet, I want to change "Adimun" to "Adam" -(العمصوني & البطنيج) — Preceding unsigned comment added by العمصوني & البطنيج (talk • contribs) 02:07, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by AenglscriptEnlight (talk • contribs) 05:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC) 

translation into Chinese Wikipedia

The version 11:23, 17 November 2020 103.195.0.118 of this article is translated into Chinese Wikipedia to expand an existing article.--Wing (talk) 07:06, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 8 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Withdrawing requested move. Sahaib3005 (talk) 06:08, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

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• Idris (prophet) → Idris
• Idris → Idris (disambiguation)

– Primary topic and the one with the most long term significance. I don’t see any other article that is more notable (with the exact title of "Idris") listed at the disambiguation page. Sahaib3005 (talk) 20:41, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Note: The relevant page view numbers, to save people a few clicks: [1] -- Fyrael (talk) 13:49, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: Keep in mind that sometimes the right answer is to keep it as a disambiguation page. I'm looking at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Is it much more likely that someone searching for Idris is looking for Idris (prophet) than e.g. Idris of Libya? Falsifian (talk) 01:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: I don't agree the prophet is the primary topic. If I search for the word "Idris" on JSTOR, Google Scholar and Google Books, I see lots of results about other things called Idris, but little or nothing about the prophet. Also, the prophet is not a central figure in Islam; obviously far less significance than Muhammad, but arguably even less significance than other pre-Islamic prophets such as Isa/Jesus or Musa/Moses. So I don't believe that either the usage or the long-term significance criteria of WP:PTOPIC are met here. Mr248 (talk) 05:14, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Doesn't appear to be the primary topic, particularly given the existence of Idris of Libya. BilledMammal (talk) 05:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
• Here's the clickstream data for March (showing the number of times each link on the dab page was followed, excluding link with <10 clicks):

Idris	Idris_Elba	other	66
Idris	Idris_Elba	other	66
Idris	Idris_Gawr	link	30
Idris	Idris_I_of_Morocco	link	11
Idris	Idris_(name)	link	231
Idris	Idris_of_Libya	link	17
Idris	Idris_(programming_language)	link	139
Idris	Idris_(prophet)	link	80

So there doesn't appear to be a primary topic with respect to usage. – Uanfala (talk) 23:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.