Talk:Progress

Social development

For now, social development redirects here, as this term is sometimes used to mean social progress. However I think that 'social dev.' may have a different meaning as well - i.e. the development of individuals, not societies. However I was unable to find a clear definition of any of 'soc. dev.', so until sb finds it and corrects it, I think the current redirect is a better solution then red link. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:35, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, I discoverd that social development is not necesarilly positive, and is divided into social progress and social regress. Changed the articles accordingly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:09, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I've added a bibliographical reference from J. B. Bury, who seems to me the best authority on the subject. It seems to me on reflection, that this article could be productively merged with Philosophical Progress and Progress (History) and even the Myth of Progress (other entries on wikipedia). I agree with Piotr that there is progress and there is regress -- the "myth" is that either one is inevitable (or alternatively that history moves necessarily in either a unitary direction or in cycles -- both beliefs having long histories).Mballen (talk) 04:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Merge from Progress (history) and Idea of Progress

I do not believe there is much difference between notion of progress in social science in general and historiography in particular. Compare the leads of the two articles:

“ In historiography, progress (from Latin progressus, "an advance") is the study of how specific societies improved over time in terms of science, technology, modernization, liberty, democracy, longevity, quality of life, freedom from pollution and so on. Specific indicators can range from economic data, technical innovations, change in the political or legal system, and questions bearing on individual life chances, such as life expectancy and risk of disease and disability.

Many high-level theories, such as the Idea of Progress are available, such as the Western notion of monotonic change in a straight, linear fashion. Alternative conceptions exist, such as the cyclic theory of eternal return, or the "spiral-shaped" dialectic progress of Hegel, Marx, et al.

”

“ Social progress is the idea that societies can or do improve in terms of their social, political, and economic structures. This may happen as a result of direct human action, as in social enterprise or through activism, or as a natural part of sociocultural evolution. The concept of social progress was introduced in the early 19th century social theories, especially social evolution as described by Auguste Comte and Herbert Spencer. It was present in the Enlightenment's philosophies of history. As a goal, social progress has been advocated by varying realms of political ideologies with different theories on how it is to be achieved ”

If we were to remove "In historiography" opening of the first one, they'd be pretty much interexchangable. Further, I am also thinking that Idea of Progress may be worth merging in too. Consider that lead, just remove "idea of" from it:

“ In intellectual history, the Idea of Progress is the idea that advances in technology, science, and social organization can produce an improvement in the human condition. That is, people can become better in terms of quality of life (social progress) through economic development (modernization), and the application of science and technology (scientific progress). The assumption is that the process will happen once people apply their reason and skills, for it is not divinely foreordained. The role of the expert is to identify hindrances that slow or neutralize progress.

The Idea of Progress emerged primarily in the Enlightenment in the 18th century.[1][2] Significant movements in this period were Diderot's Encyclopedia, which carried on the campaign against authority and superstition, and the French Revolution. Some scholars consider the idea of progress that was affirmed with the Enlightenment, as a secularization of ideas from early Christianity, and a reworking of ideas from ancient Greece.[3][4][5] In the nineteenth century, the idea of progress was united by Charles Darwin and Herbert Spencer to their theories of evolution. The Spencerian version of it, called Social Darwinism, was very widely influential among intellectuals in many fields in the late nineteenth century.[6] By the 1920s, however, Social Darwinism had generally lost favor with intellectuals, especially because World War I had shown that modern technology could cause horrible negative impacts on human affairs.[7]

”

I believe we again get the very same lead, replicated for the third time. Progress is progress is progress.

There was a past discussion few years back at Talk:Progress_(history)#Mass_merger_proposal, which ended with the merger of [[Myth of Progress] to Idea of Progress#Myth of Progress. I do think we should finish the merger. While the articles are not fully identical, this is simply because they are both incomplete - but they seem to cover the same basic concept: sociocultural progress in historical context, i.e. just "progress" as commonly understood. If anyone disagrees, please cite an academic work which distinguishes those three concepts, i.e talks of "idea of progress" vs. "social progreess" vs. "progress in history/historiography". I'll ping participants of past discussions I was able to ID: Userr:fhorrest, User:Rjensen, User:Maziotis, User:Sunrise.

PS. I am open to what may be the best name for this article - frankly, I think we should move progress to progress (disambiguation) and move the merged article to just progress. And I chose social progress as a merge destination more or less at random, all three articles seem to be about as well developed (and IMHO are three forks of the same concept). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

FYI, I didn't receive your ping, but I saw this comment on my watchlist (pinging Pfhorrest, Rjensen, Maziotis). I agree that additional merges need to take place, and that there should be a main article at Progress summarizing the pages currently being disambiguated there. Also, based on this discussion, I'm not convinced that the "idea of progress" and "progress" are independent concepts. Sunrise (talk) 08:10, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with everything as you've stated it, Piotrus. --Pfhorrest (talk) 16:39, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

@Pfhorrest, Sunrise, and Piotrus: There seems to be agreement for a merge here; perhaps someone with a subject interest could complete the merge? This one looks a little more complex and distinct from my field of specialism for me to attempt it in an ideal manner. Klbrain (talk) 10:18, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Since it appears we have consensus, I'll see what I can do about merging / renaming this topic. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:24, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Merge done - I've merged all referenced content. I've also redirected scientific progress and philosophical progress here, without merging anything, those two were essentially unreferenced OR essays. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:20, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

@Red Slash and Necrothesp: I'd be happy to learn more about any concerns you may have about the mergers. I do think it is possible some of those articles might be plausible subarticles, but as they were, they were either content forks or original research/essays, IMHO.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 3 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Unanimous support. Move was largely procedural after the merge discussion above. (non-admin closure) — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 12:44, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

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Social progress → Progress – Following the merge discussion above, it is now time to move this to progress, and move that disambig to progress (disambiguation). Related category rename is at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_July_3#Category:Progress_(history). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:15, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

• I disagree with the merge, but that ship sailed, so support Red Slash 13:03, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support, clear primary topic (basically a WP:DABCONCEPT) among all remaining meanings of the term. bd2412 T 15:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support. No, I'm not sure I agree with the merger either, but given it has happened then it's an obvious primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:07, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support for the record, as per my previous comments on the subject. Sunrise (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support Lead sentence says it all. IWI (chat) 11:21, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• Moving. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 12:34, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
• removed the redirect at progress (disambiguation)
• moved Progress to progress (disambiguation)
• moved Social progress to Progress

— Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 12:44, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Social progress

I wish to include this paragraph in the sub-section, Social Progress:

Social progress According to the World Economic Forum (Agenda 2015), social progress counts because the human development model anchored on economic progress alone is not complete. Societies must also address fundamental needs of human beings, empower citizens to promote quality of life, safeguard the environment, and provide opportunities for citizens to succeed. Growth entails a combination of social and economic progress. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/04/why-social-progress-matters/

ThanksLOBOSKYJOJO (talk) 00:24, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Added some content based on this source. Sunrise (talk) 21:34, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

"The Progress of Civilizing" section

Some sort of fringe writing is represented in that section - 1 citation to an author who lacks enough prominence to have a Wikipedia article but seems to be positing a "grand theory" of everything human. Should probably be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.230.136.207 (talk) 02:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Alain de benoist

Would anyone care to explain why this article from a white nationalist magazine (the occidental quarterly) needs to be in the “further reading” section? Seems like a marginal and harmful viewpoint that Wikipedia should not be guiding readers towards. 72.95.130.125 (talk) 01:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

"Progress (philosophy" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Progress (philosophy and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 27#Progress (philosophy until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Awful section on postmodernism

The part of this article about postmodernism is very clearly written by someone with no idea of what they're talking about. It has no citations. I would be extremely curious which "postmodernist" thinkers argue for the value of "inner peace." There are genuine postmodern critiques of the concept of progress, but whoever wrote this clearly did not read them. Mbarcy (talk) 12:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)