Talk:Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56 discography

Attribution

This article was split from Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: My suggestion is to add the names of the solo obliggato oboists, possibly as another column or in the same column as the bass-baritone soloist. They are usually well known, e.g. Marcel Ponseele, Albrecht Mayer, etc. (Similarly for BWV 82.)

I'm preparing 5 YouTube videos for the 1992 recording of William Parker and McGegan on the Nightingale/Harmonia Mundi label (Parker died of AIDS shortly after the recording, hence the Nightingale charity connection and the Shanti Project). The image for BWV 56/i will be "Winter Landscape" by Caspar David Friedrich in the National Gallery, London[1]: the NG curators write,

"A man, having cast aside his crutches, lies against a large boulder in a snowy landscape as he prays in front of a shining crucifix protected by three fir trees—a trinity that recalls the Christian Trinity of God the Father, Christ and the Holy Ghost. The silhouette of a German Gothic cathedral or church looms in the mist, its facade and spires echoing the shapes of the trees." In the companion picture now in Schwerin, "a similar tiny figure, leaning on a crutch, stares at a deserted snow-covered landscape under a grey-black sky as he wanders among dead or dying oak trees. If that picture is one of desolation and despair, the National Gallery painting offers the hope of resurrection through Christian faith."

Mathsci (talk) 14:11, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Good idea. Possibly in the same column.

The image is a good addition - although not from the period - but would need more text first.

I suggest - for the present sound files, to give the full description once, for the first, and drop it for the others, too avoid repetition and win the space for something better, such as that image.

Once upon a time, the article had a historic photo of boat on the Sea of Galilee. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:22, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

The images refer to five future YouTube videos; all will use paintings of Friedrich. The videos can hopefully be used as external links as happened in Organ concertos, Op. 4 (Handel). Mathsci (talk) 21:23, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Info in the box

@Gerda Arendt: @Mathsci: Good idea to put the instrumentalists in the box. BTW I am sorry I didn't get this discography off the ground myself. I was rather busy.--Thoughtfortheday (talk) 16:18, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Bach's solo cantata for bass, Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, was recorded twice by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, Matthias Goerne and Dominik Wörner? Source: several
• reviewed: The Evolution of Atheism

5* expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk), Mathsci (talk) and Thoughtfortheday (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 21:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC).

• Comment. Unfortunately the statement here is completely inaccurate. Two recordings were made by Mack Harrell (van Beinum, Shaw); Gérard Souzay (Winschermann, Geraint Jones); Barry McDaniel (Werner, Hochreiter); Peter Kooy (Herreweghe, Suzuki); Klaus Mertens (Lutz, Koopman [three recordings]); and others (see discogs). For example, a recording was made with Stephan McLeod in 2007 and a second will be released on 29 April 2022. More interesting is the story behind Mack Harrell (b. Texas) and Barry McDaniel (b. Kansas). I therefore suggest this alternative: did you know

• ALT1 ... that Bach's solo cantata, Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, was recorded first in 1939 by American bass-baritone Mack Harrell and later in 1964 by his student Barry McDaniel, who became a Berliner? Source: several

This is at least accurate. Mathsci (talk) 23:38, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Concertgebouw, 1931

• ALT2 ... that Bach's solo cantata, Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, was first recorded at the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam, in February 1939 by American bass-baritone Mack Harrell? Source: several

Mathsci (talk) 06:07, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for helping. I wanted to add you as author but hit submit too soon, sorry, and now corrected. My hook: I picked the first thing obvious, because it was the last day to nominate, and I was tired. The recordings you mention are not yet in the article (unless it happened overnight), so could not yet be used. Discogs is not regarded as a reliable source, so when adding them please use other references. The hook is not "completely inaccurate" because it nowhere says that these were the only ones. We could add "among others" if that helps. I am no friend of ALT2 because it provides no hint at how many singers were attracted to this particular piece, and the pretty image is not picturing "recording". It's "quirky", though, that this very German piece was first recorded by an American in the Netherlands (an then not again for decade) The teacher-son relationship could also be used for DFD and Goerne, btw. I also find interesting that these two both did it again a decade or two later. Just DYK has this limit of 200 chars and I don't now how to say so without mentioning only quantities and years. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Potential recordings for the Kreuzstab cantata can be hunted down off-wiki on "authority control" links, bach-cantatas.com, Allmusic, Muziekweb, discogs, google, spotify, archive.org, etc; after that, refs in gramophone, diapason, jstor, etc, can be pinned down. But the list so for is inadequate. On archive.org, it was easy to find Harrell's recording with Robert Shaw; Harrell was one of the greatest singers of his generation. The events of 1939 are fairly well known. Nowadays, Bach's music is regarded as universal, not "German music". You write: I am no friend of ALT2 because it provides no hint at how many singers were attracted to this particular piece, and the pretty image is not picturing "recording". The so-called "pretty image" is a routine photograph of the Concertgebouw, prior to Nazi occupation. The interior of the main hall of the Concertgebouw is unaltered; the performance can be heard on archive.org, YouTube, etc.

For the 1939 recording, the citation is already in the article.[2] For the second recording of Harrell in 1958, Jonathan Woolf writes: "Mack was seemingly the most instinctively noble of singers. There is an unselfconscious gravity in his singing but never one that elides into the statuesque. He is careful to ensure clarity and rigorous attention to the text and his noble seriousness works outstandingly in the recitatives."

The recording of Barry McDaniel is already cited.[3] John Quinn writes: "Mention must also be made of Barry McDaniel’s splendid performance of the solo cantata, Ich will den Kreuzstab gerne tragen, BWV 56. He offers a dignified and elevated account of this moving cantata, as does Werner. McDaniel’s tone is even and full throughout the compass of his voice and he sings with sensitivity and intelligence, making the most of the words. In the great aria 'Endlich, endlich wird mein Joch' he has the inestimable benefit of a partnership with Pierre Pierlot. Pierlot’s playing is sprightly and stylish while McDaniel’s divisions are excellently clean. The performance of this cantata is one of the highlights of the collection." Mathsci (talk) 13:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I wonder why you don't say so on the article talk, or in the article. We know it's a work in progress, and we should admit that it will not be complete. - This template is for a reviewer to check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

It's already happened in the article; that affected the choice of external link for BWV 56. There are more than 70 recordings but only 22 in the table. Schreier and Bär are missing. According to Jonathan Freeman-Attwood on Gramophone, Barry McDaniel and Fritz Werner are still rated as being in a league of its own. The first recording of Goerne and Norrington receives high praise; but the later one with Goerne, not so. The Peter Wollny's pdf commentary, however, is useful and new. Mathsci (talk) 15:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

• Full review needed. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
• Article was expanded 5x just within the seven-day requirement, and I did not find any close paraphrasing. The article's sources are either not in English or largely offline so I am assuming good faith for those. A QPQ has been done. The issue here is the hooks. The original hook and ALT2 do not appear to appeal to non-specialists (although I think there is some promise in the teacher-student relationship in ALT1). And speaking of ALT1, I'm not exactly sure how the mention of "Berliner" adds to the hook (it doesn't even appear explicitly in he article). I think we can go with some version of ALT1 if the teacher-student relationship is emphasized and the mention of "Berliner" is deleted. Finally, as much as ALT1 appears to be the best option here, the fact that McDaniel was Harrell's student is not mentioned in the article at all, so that will need to be addressed. @MathSci: Can you address the article issues and propose a revised hook? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Mathsci: Fixed ping because I misspelled your username in the previous comment. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: thanks for the update and correcting my (2006 vintage!) username. The sourcing is from Gramophone (if I remember correctly – see the references above); I can update the discography article and the hook ALT 1, in consultation with Gerda Arendt, if you can provide me with a time frame. The recording by Barry McDaniel now occurs as an "external audio" in the main article, the Kreuzstab cantata (Kreuzstabkantate). Regards, Mathsci (talk) 12:12, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Mathsci: Given that the nomination has been going on for a while, I think a week would be a reasonable deadline. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:16, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Mathsci (talk) 10:48, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

• ALT 4: ... that the first recording of Bach's Kreuzstab cantata was a 1939 Dutch live broadcast by Mack Harrell, 25 years before the 1964 recording by his protégé Barry McDaniel, who had settled in West Berlin and acquired Albert Speer's former villa? Sources: several Mathsci (talk) 15:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

ALT4 is way too long (it's above 200 characters) and is a bit on the complicated side. On the other hand, perhaps the following wording may be more suitable:

ALT5 ... that the first recording of Bach's Kreuzstab cantata was a 1939 Dutch live broadcast by Mack Harrell, 25 years before the 1964 recording by his protégé Barry McDaniel?

Thoughts on this? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps just this small tweak:

ALT6 ... that the first recording of Bach's Kreuzstab cantata was a 1939 Dutch live broadcast by Mack Harrell, 25 years before the 1964 German recording by his protégé Barry McDaniel?

(The recording was in West Germany.) Mathsci (talk) 23:56, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. This is almost ready to go; the only issue is that the hook fact sentences lack footnotes (the footnotes citing them are at the end of their respective paragraphs, when for DYK purposes they also need to be duplicated in the actual sentences too). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi. I've added the in-line references for each sentence as requested. I hope it's OK. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 01:23, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you. ALT6 is the only hook that is approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:29, 28 May 2022 (UTC)