Talk:Huntington's disease/Archive 2
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Discussion archive
Previous resolved or inactive discussion topics can be found in the archive feel free to reopen any issues you believe require further discussion.
Article Title - Huntington's Disease vs Huntington Disease
I was very surprised to see this page titled "Huntington's Disease", rather than "Huntington Disease". This is a significant error that should be addressed - the disease was named after George Huntington, but it does not 'belong' to him - therefore, the use of "'s" is incorrect. This is a fundamental principle of disease and syndrome nomenclature, not just my opinion (see [1] if you need convincing) - although this mistake is frequently made, even in scientific and medical publications (and not just on Wikipedia!).
I strongly recommend that the article is re-named "Huntington Disease" and that "Huntington's Disease", "Huntington's Chorea" and "Huntington Chorea" are all disambiguated to the new name. Cjones586 (talk) 14:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- Per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(medicine-related_articles)#Naming_conventions, we use ICD-10 in most cases, and the World Health Organization uses the possessive. --Arcadian (talk) 06:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- Unless otherwise will probably be fixed in ICD-11, but that isn't due out for a few more years yet. LeeVJ (talk) 12:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Usage of HTT for gene, HTT for protein and mHTT for mutant form of protein
Hi Lee- really nice work on the HD article by the way. I stopped by today to make some scattered revisions particularly on the genetics parts. One thing I noticed is the gene symbol/protein symbol issue (discussed here[2]). I switched the gene name to all-caps italics wherever I saw it and the protein name to all-caps non-italics. To my best knowledge, this is the "proper" way to distinguish gene names and protein names. What I don't know is how the mutant protein is designated (mHtt or mHTT). My guess is you can find examples of both usages, but probably mHTT is more consistent with the typical protein designations in humans (as opposed to mouse, where the gene is Htt and the protein is Htt).
- Thankyou :) When I looked into it a year ago, there didn't seem to be a concensus in journals etc, but what I did get the gist of was that genes where capitalised, and proteins they produced weren't i.e. HTT the gene, Htt the protein, seemed right so I stopped looking into it. As for mhtt makes sense to me that since it is actually a form of Htt it is just a lower case 'm' denoting 'essentiall htt but altered' also seems right - but I have been known to be wrong! LeeVJ (talk) 00:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Are there other sections that you think could benefit from additional work? I'd be happy to help you get this one GA status. Medical geneticist (talk) 22:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
- Great! Your copyedits and additions have already been magnificient! As for GA there are a couple of trickies - full details for the citations and some of the short sections. I've reduced the technical jargon over time to something readable and understandable (hopefully) but some of them now need expanding on! An essential piece mentioned yonks ago in peer review that would add help start rounding off the article is about DNA replication! Someone asked about how dna had problems replicating long sequences, ie.e cleavage points and such, but I got lost in translation ;( (sorry) I think they meant for the protein generation - initially I was looking at how the repeat expansion can change as it is passed on, but I think both would be an excellent addition...if there are two functions, like I said I got a bit lost which is why the other wiki articles still need some work! LeeVJ (talk) 00:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Capitalization of huntingtin
Huntingtin is inconsistently capitalized; I suspect it's appropriate to capitalize it, but wasn't sure, and there are a few instances where it is uncapitalized ( Maralia (talk) 03:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC) )
- As far as I know it seems if it's the gene its uppercase -'Huntingtin', if it's a product of the gene ( i.e. the protein) its lower-case -'huntingtin', I think I looked at before but could find no definate answer. L∴V 14:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I've applied the following rule for now 'for consistency - Capitalisaztion of Huntingtin gene, lower case for protein whilst avoiding 'huntingtin protein' which could be either'. On a cursory search got scared - [3] as when you say huntingtin protein you could mean 'protein product of Huntingtin' or simply 'the huntingtin protein', seems there are conventions vary for species too, then I briefly thought about the capitalisaztion of article titles, that's when I ran away. L∴V 14:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
HD Management - Nutrition
In this article, it is said, "Most HD sufferers need two to three times the calories of the average person to maintain body weight", yet I have never seen any source that validates this. The largest supplement I have come across suggested by any particular study is 473 kcal/d in the study by Trejo et al. Conorcosgrave (talk) 17:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- Part of answer: 24hr energy expenditure increased 11% due to movements. ( Gaba AM, Zhang K, Marder K, Moskowitz CB, Werner P, Boozer CN (2005). "Energy balance in early-stage Huntington disease". Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 81 (6): 1335–41. PMID 15941884.
{{cite journal}}
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ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) )LeeVJ (talk) 10:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Um, well, I found a site called omnimedical search that says they need high calorie diets, but I have not seen anything stating 2-3x the normal amount of calories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.147.23.130 (talk) 05:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- This information has been simplified to 'nutritional management' until such time as a review-type ref is found and deemed noteworthy. L∴V 13:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
deleted links
Commercial
Since there are many trials and companies performing trials, didn't seem right to pick one out or list them all in main article, so maybe a list of companies conducting HD research is needed - need to trawl through manuals of style to find out if this is the wikipedia way...and have removed following recent link from article; --Leevanjackson (talk) 23:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- 2008 Clinical Trials: Avicena's HD-02 to Proceed to NIH Sponsored Phase III Huntington's Disease Trial
lay organisations
There are a large number of lay organisations; initially some were removed as per 'wikipedia is not a link farm, these are listed here in case someone comes up with a genius idea of how to use them. L∴V 12:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Social Networking: Social Support Network for the HD Community!
- The International Huntington Association - Coordinates support organizations in 39 countries, and individual contacts in others.
- Hereditary Disease Foundation - Spearheaded Venezuela Collaborative Huntington's Disease Project.
- Huntington's Disease Lighthouse - Reports on the latest research and studies.
- Huntington's Disease Advocacy Center - Provides community support through shared stories and forums.
- Huntington's Disease Support Club
- European HD Network European research network
- Huntington's Disease Associations of New Zealand
- Australian Huntington's Disease Association (NSW) Inc.
- Huntington's Disease Society of America
- Huntington Society of Canada - Resource materials, latest in Canadian and International HD research and description of comprehensive services portfolio to help families struggling with HD
- Scottish Huntingtons Association - Provides expert care and information for people affected by Huntingtons Disease. Just as importantly, support is offered by families for families via a network of local family support groups.
- Huntington's Disease Association UK United Kingdom support group
- Huntington's Disease Drug Works - Website covering results and progress of clinical trials and alternative treatments for HD.
- WeAreHD.org - Online Community for those living with Huntington's Disease.
- Huntington's disease in the Swedish Rare Disease Database
Further deleted links (with reasoning)
- Huntington Project - worldwide umbrella organization for the clinical research efforts for HD
- It may be an interesting site for investigators; but wikipedia is not a link directory; and this site has no encyclopedic value
- Same as above
- Huntington's Disease Research - Research abstracts on HD.
- I do not think that an site where they put the most recent abstracts on HD is suitable for wikipedia; but in this case I am not as sure as in the others.
- They barely give any info. They comment what they have published as a group and some clinical trials.
- TRACK-HD, an international observational study of HD
- A link to an ongoing study has no encyclopedic value
- University California and San Francisco Memory and Aging Center - HD Info
- Our article has much more than what they give
Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 09:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Definition of aggregates and inclusions
I've copied this from /Archive_1#Accuracy_and_presentation_of_data by User:Matstuff: 'Uncleaved fragments of mHTT aren't called aggregates. The coalescence of mHTT fragments is thought to form 'protofilmanets' which further coalesce (aggregate) to form inclusions. Inclusions can be nuclear OR cytoplasmic (where they are sometimes called aggregates)' L∴V 23:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
St Vitus Dance
Having failed to find the original reference used for the following fact have moved from the article:
- c. 300: Along with other conditions with abnormal movements, it may have been referred to as St Vitus' dance. St Vitus is the patron saint of epileptics who was martyred in 303.
The only references I can find state St Vitus Dance as being Sydenham's chorea, but it is feasible that HD was also known in the past so I will leave here for future ref/ comment.LeeVJ (talk) 22:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think we should try to present the history of Huntington's, and not that of chorea. Sydenham's occurs specifically after streptococcal infections, while St Vitus' dance occurs after exposure to ergot-containing wheat. JFW | T@lk 16:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Gillick Competence
The law regarding Gillick competence is not a worldwide law. Wikipeida's own article on Gillick Competence only lists several countries in which the law applies, and in explicitly states that the law/standard should be contrasted with the "stricter age-limit approach used in the U.S." This article on Huntington's makes it seem that Gillick Competence is a law/standard that can be applied everywhere. I recommend rewording this section of this article to reflect the differing laws worldwide, or at least mention that Gillick Competence is only valid in certain countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhadjiosif22153 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Noted. As for laws, the recommended guidelines on testing aren't law anywhere (as far as I know), just the common good practice recommendations, will check wording reflects this... LeeVJ (talk) 21:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Previous GA Reviews
The order of GA reviews is a little complicated - so here's the explanation First GA review /GA0 was written before sub-pages were used. The second GA review is then found at GA1 (as transcluded below) Note: incorrect use of GAR resulted in /GA2 and /GA3 being created.
GA review
This article generally does a good job covering an important topic on which there is a ton of material, so kudos to the writers. However, I think it does need a thorough copy edit and needs many citations; there are a bunch of sections that are unreferenced. Here are my suggestions. This looks like an awful lot but it's really mostly quick, easy fixes.
The following sections have no citation: "Symptoms", "Cognitive", "Mechanism", "Pathophysiology", "Diagnosis", "Management", "Medication", "Social impact", and "Others".The following paragraphs have no citations: The first paragraph under "Genetics", the second and third under "Inheritance".- I
would leave the complicated epidemiology data out of the very first sentence, maybe put it in the second or third. Rather, I'd have the first sentence be about what the disease is like: "Huntington's is characterized by..." That way you could introduce the idea of the varied epidemiology at the beginning of a new sentence: "the number of people varies with ethnicity: 1 in 100,000..."Done LeeVJ (talk) 23:04, 23 May 2008 (UTC) "The disorder has been heavily researched in the last few decades" might be a problem per WP:DATEDDone LeeVJ (talk) 22:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)"late forties/early fifties" - I would write this out rather than using the slash, and make the spelled out number/numeral thing consistent.Done LeeVJ (talk) 15:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)- "
usually at around 40-50 years" Use en dashes (–) rather than hyphens (-) for number ranges per WP:DASH. This is a repetition of the 2nd paragraph, too.Done LeeVJ (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC) - "
psychiatric changes, which pre-empt the physical ones, are overlooked" what does this mean? What does it mean to pre-epmt a symptom? Is that how you spell pre-empt? (I really don't know)Done LeeVJ (talk) 17:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC) - "
Physical symptoms are almost always evident" Does this mean "almost everyone with Huntington's gets physical symptoms?" Or something about how obvious the symptoms are? Maybe reword for clarity.Done LeeVJ (talk) 17:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC) - "
cognitive symptoms which can lead to psychopathological problems exhibit differently from person to person." would have a different meaning from "cognitive symptoms, which can lead to psychopathological problems, ..." The former is a more specific type of cognitive problem. Which is it?Done LeeVJ (talk) 21:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC) - "
some uncontrollable movement of the lips, chewing and swallowing (Dysphagia) which commonly causes weight loss" Some can usually be dropped without changing the meaning (see User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a: redundancy exercises). Also, "uncontrollable movement of the lips, chewing and swallowing..." doesn't really make sense. Maybe "uncontrollable movement of the lips, problems with chewing and swallowing"?Done LeeVJ (talk) 22:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC) - "
Continence, eating and mobility are extremely difficult if not impossible." Impossible is a strong word. This would require a citation. Done LeeVJ (talk) 17:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC) - "
to date neither of this have been supported". Per WP:DATED, avoid "to date", replacing it with "As of [whenever]".Done LeeVJ (talk) 15:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC) I believe citation style calls for a capital letter after a colon in refs.Done LeeVJ (talk) 15:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)"The latter can cause or worsen addictions such as alcoholism and gambling, or hypersexuality."..5 Done cite is left tagged LeeVJ (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)is hypersexuality an addiction? If not, you could have "The latter can cause or worsen hypersexuality or addictions such as alcoholism and gambling." a cite would be good here tooMaking that table float to the right would reduce whitespace (e.g. in rotavirus).Done LeeVJ (talk) 15:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)Explain or at least wikilink "penetrance".{ Done LeeVJ (talk) 18:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)- "
to have an increased mortality, progressively interfering with their functioning." Yeah, I guess dying would interfere with their functioning. :P Also, is there a simpler way to reword this for laypeople?Done LeeVJ (talk) 17:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC) You can do et al. for >3 or 6 names in a ref per WP:MEDMOSDone LeeVJ (talk) 15:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)"Generally, but not always, the greater the number of CAG repeats..." doesn't really fit at the end of that paragraph, maybe you can fit it in the previous one.Done LeeVJ (talk) 18:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)Image:Autosomal Dominant Pedigree Chart.svg could stand to be smaller. I'd recommend cropping the image and increasing the size of the text so it's still legible if you make it smaller (it's an svg so this won't be hard. I can do it if you need me to, I like doing junk like that).- Done What do you think? Actually, I think I may have made the key box too big, I can shrink it and make the elements closer together if you think it's a good idea. delldot talk 07:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- Much better! Still not sure about it's understanability to anyone who doesn't know what it means ! e.g. (I,II,III?) but at least it can be read now ..LeeVJ (talk) 11:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it's a problem, but could add clarifications to the caption if necessary. delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- I can't put my finger on it, I think it's because each of the generations has differing number of possibilities, i.e. 1st gen has five offspring, 2nd then has 2,3,and 4, I think 1st gen have 4, then second have two sets off four one from an affected and one from a wild type, sounds like hassle though and not sure how pedigree charts are usually depicted .LeeVJ (talk) 21:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- User:Medical geneticist has added a description which improves the situation. LeeVJ (talk) 15:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- I can't put my finger on it, I think it's because each of the generations has differing number of possibilities, i.e. 1st gen has five offspring, 2nd then has 2,3,and 4, I think 1st gen have 4, then second have two sets off four one from an affected and one from a wild type, sounds like hassle though and not sure how pedigree charts are usually depicted .LeeVJ (talk) 21:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it's a problem, but could add clarifications to the caption if necessary. delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Much better! Still not sure about it's understanability to anyone who doesn't know what it means ! e.g. (I,II,III?) but at least it can be read now ..LeeVJ (talk) 11:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- Done What do you think? Actually, I think I may have made the key box too big, I can shrink it and make the elements closer together if you think it's a good idea. delldot talk 07:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
"and are finally cleared up in a process called degradation" cleared up?Done LeeVJ (talk) 17:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)"The exact mechanism in which mHtt causes or affects the biological processes of DNA replication and programmed cell death (apoptosis) remains unclear, so research is divided into identifying the functioning of Htt, how mHtt differs or interferes with it, and the proteopathic effects of remnants of the protein (known as aggregates) left after degradation." - long and hard to follow. Is there a simpler way to say proteopathic?Done LeeVJ (talk) 23:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)- " This loss of BDNF may contribute to striatal cell death, which does not follow apoptotic pathways as the neurons appear to die of starvation."
Can you reword into simpler terms for the layperson?This section could be fleshed out more anyway. Is this really all there is to say about their function? With mHtt, how are we supposed to deal with starting a sentence with a lower case letter? My instinct would be to reword so it doesn't come first (e.g. "The protein mHtt..." or "The erroneous protein mHtt" if there's an official thing known as an erroneous protein). You may want to look at featured protein articles if there are any to see how they handle the problem.Done LeeVJ (talk) 20:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)"polyQ dependent transcription" should probably be "polyQ-dependent transcription". Can you check?Done LeeVJ (talk) 20:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)"The aggregates also interact with SP1, thereby preventing it from binding to DNA,the normal functioning of these proteins" Unclear. Maybe "the way proteins normally do" or something.Done LeeVJ (talk) 20:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)- "Huntington mice models exposed to better husbandry techniques, especially better access to food and water, lived much longer than mice that were not well cared for."
Citation needed here.The sentence should say "in a 1998 study..." or some such, since these are findings from a particular study, not something general. A review article that discusses the study should be used, not the study itself.- This is OK, I think I was being too strict insisting on no primary sources. As I now understand it, some are ok. I think I was also wrong about using "in a 1998 study"; I've since been told that if the source is reliable you can state just the results. So this is fine. delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure about this one either , couldn't find a decent ref for it, aside from the fact it's pretty damned obvious that access to correct levels of food, water and ideal environment will positively affect longevity! LeeVJ (talk) 21:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, found a relevant study <ref name="pmid14999077">{{cite journal |author=Spires TL, Grote HE, Varshney NK, ''et al'' |title=Environmental enrichment rescues protein deficits in a mouse model of Huntington's disease, indicating a possible disease mechanism |journal=[[J. Neurosci.]] |volume=24 |issue=9 |pages=2270–6 |year=2004 |month=March |pmid=14999077 |doi=10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1658-03.2004 |url=http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=14999077 |issn=}}</ref> so could reinstate statement,maybe. LeeVJ (talk) 13:14, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure about this one either , couldn't find a decent ref for it, aside from the fact it's pretty damned obvious that access to correct levels of food, water and ideal environment will positively affect longevity! LeeVJ (talk) 21:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- This is OK, I think I was being too strict insisting on no primary sources. As I now understand it, some are ok. I think I was also wrong about using "in a 1998 study"; I've since been told that if the source is reliable you can state just the results. So this is fine. delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"This is a significant find for Huntington's." What is a "significant find"? This sounds like opinion, though it's good that there's a ref. Don't know if this sentence adds anything though, without further explanation.Done LeeVJ (talk) 17:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)I don't think the paragraph on Juvenile HD belongs in the prognosis section, it's more about symptoms or classification. Could merge with the mention under epidemiology as a last resort; at least this would cut down on repetition.Done LeeVJ (talk) 23:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)- Is there really only one sentence to be written about medication, in the treatment section? If so, this section should maybe be merged into another one. I would think, though, that more needs to be written here to adequately cover the subject.
- Still very short, is medication just not an important part of treatment? delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Hard to find huntington's specifically tested classical medicine, mostly broken down by health service as medicine per symptom as it would be treated on it's own, other's used don't seem to be official endorsed yet, but I am delving, should the drugs used just be listed e.g. drug for psychotic episode, apathy etc. or maybe better if I drag in a summary from each of the symptoms articles... LeeVJ (talk) 21:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Still very short, is medication just not an important part of treatment? delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- There are a number of very short paragraphs and sections. These are discouraged and should probably be merged or expanded.
- Improved, but still quite a few. delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- just started on this one...LeeVJ (talk) 21:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Improved, but still quite a few. delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
" An intracellularly expressed single-chain Fv against the amino-terminal end of mutant huntingtin (mHtt) has been shown to reduce mHtt aggregate formation and increase turnover of the mHtt fragments in tissue culture models of HD." Can the wording be simplified for the lay reader?Done LeeVJ (talk) 01:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)"Intensive therapy: A pilot study on July, 2007, of inpatient rehabilitation for the Italian Welfare system, of speech, mind and body showed no motor decline in the two-year study." This needs rewording.Done LeeVJ (talk) 17:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)The sentence under "Others" under "Research directions" needs a citation or citations.Any time you have a statistic, it requires a citation. For example, "The prevalence is, on average, between 5 and 8 per 100,000", and "...screening now make it possible (with 99 percent certainty) to have an HD-free child"- It looks like there are an awful lot of primary sources, not the best per WP:MEDRS. Be careful when citing trials to be clear that it's a specific study and not general results, and use review articles or other secondary or tertiary sources whenever possible instead.
find references for all 'citations needed'.
- I have incorporated all the above points regarding missing references here, having tagged sections with 'fact' where required. LeeVJ (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- Done LeeVJ (talk) 16:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm failing this for now because I think finding all the needed citations will take more than the week usually allotted for a hold. Please feel free to nominate it again once that has been dealt with, though. I'm glad to give it another look when you want me to to let you know if I think it's ready to go up again. Sorry to be so picky, it really is a very nice article, so I decided to use a very fine toothed comb with the prose. Most of my points are very minor, however the citation needed issues need to get dealt with first and foremost. I'd also recommend having a copy editor look over the article, because there were a bunch of minor wording things that made me think the whole article could use a copy edit. It also looks like some of the areas I pointed out need a little expanding. Please don't hesitate to drop me a note if you need any help or explanation. delldot on a public computer talk 07:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Get down with your bad self Leevanjackson! You're making great progress! delldot talk 07:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- thankyou! :) LeeVJ (talk) 21:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Rechecking for new GA review
- Update: Leevanjackson's done terrific work, addressing all my concerns from the earlier review. I came across a few more things while re-reviewing (very minor):
- This sentence is a fragment and too technical: Profound neuronal degeneration in the striatum with some additional atrophy of the frontal and temporal cortices. Done
- This sentence is confusing: Testing of a descendant of a person, who is 'at risk', has serious ethical implications because a positive result automatically diagnoses one of the parents. Who is at risk, the parent or the descendant? Everyone's a descendant. Possibly just a comma issue (Testing of a descendant of a person who is 'at risk') but the whole sentence should be reworded. Done
- Only the first word after periods and colons and proper nouns need to be capitalized in article titles.
- Not sure about this one, do you mean in the article content? LeeVJ (talk) 22:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
- Some refs need to be expanded, e.g. "Achievements of Hereditary Disease Foundation"--publisher needed, as well as date and author if available.
- Some of the refs just don't have this info - do I need to find new ones that do ? LeeVJ (talk) 22:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
- Confusion with its in the following sentence: The precise way it does this is unknown but a reduction in its level increases neuron cell death and creation, leading to atrophy of areas of the brain. - the first it is mHtt, and the second is BDNF, right? Done
- Under Social impact, This sentence needs rewriting: Whether or not to have the test for HD Genetic counseling may provide perspective for those at risk of the disease. Done
- Overall, looks great! delldot talk 04:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Update: Leevanjackson's done terrific work, addressing all my concerns from the earlier review. I came across a few more things while re-reviewing (very minor):
- Article as when this was written [[4]]. LeeVJ (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Categorisation - proteins category
A quick wiki search for 'huntingtin interacting' turns up a fair few proteins, many of which aren't categorised as proteins yet, possibly due to the comlpexity of the protein category structure, which at first look soesn't seem to be fully formed. It's desired structure semms to hinted at and I am just bookmarking the possible category/section for these proteins as Whole_proteome_analysis#protein_binding, requires more indepth investigation, I'm looking for images at the moment... LeeVJ (talk) 13:58, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
MCOTW
Welcome once again! Just a quick nudge / pointer to the GA Review which has a number of suggestions still to address, not to exclude any fresh perspectives / ideas of course, I'll try and sort out the images. LeeVJ (talk) 10:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Possible images
More images would be great. I have found 3 tangentially related images (Better than nothing): Tetrabenazine structure and 2 images on aspiration pneumonia (There are more on pneumonia in commons). Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 18:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
- I located another candidate in my travels, which shows a neuron with intranuclear inclusions (stained) amongst other neurons . (it's on a .gov site so I'm assuming is available to use - but think I have to email ninds to double check.) LeeVJ (talk) 01:24, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- I would add the MRI of pneumonia; but I do not know what can be seen in it... It would be great to be able to point out what is the important feature in the picture. I have also added the structure of tetrabenazine.--Garrondo (talk) 11:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure about the pneumonia either, I suppose an image of it would add by emphasising one of the most common cause of mortality. HAve added another possible image of a lab mouse possibly for research section. Another note George Huntington portrait would be better placed in history section when a better image to replace him is found ... L∴V 17:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- That was my intention; emphasising a cause of mortality however what I meant with my question is that the image has to mean something for a lay person who knows nothing of MRI (I know nothing); so we would have to point out what a radiologist sees; how does the image show it is an aspiration pneumonia.--Garrondo (talk) 08:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure about the pneumonia either, I suppose an image of it would add by emphasising one of the most common cause of mortality. HAve added another possible image of a lab mouse possibly for research section. Another note George Huntington portrait would be better placed in history section when a better image to replace him is found ... L∴V 17:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I would add the MRI of pneumonia; but I do not know what can be seen in it... It would be great to be able to point out what is the important feature in the picture. I have also added the structure of tetrabenazine.--Garrondo (talk) 11:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Re:image of neuron. Dr. Finkbeiner, has given permission to use the neuron image - I have to check that the release fits in with copyright for WP, but he also asked if there were any other images we wanted to use ! quote 'If you have specific ideas in mind of features you want to illustrate, let us know. Otherwise, members of my lab may send you images themselves, and you can see if any interest you. However, I suspect most of the images we have readily available are ones that were generated to demonstrate a very specific scientific point and therefore may be at a level of detail that is beyond your target for this article.' food for thought! L∴V 23:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- Wow, that's great. What kind of research do they make? Maybe a video of a Huntington mouse would be great (although I am not very sure of the symptomatoloy in mice) if they could give us one. I also agree with having a better lead image and moving Huntington to History.--Garrondo (talk) 08:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Slight delay while Dr Finkbeiner runs the license past his institution, seems WP requires part of licence to be 'free for commercial use', legal stuff eh! L∴V 13:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
- We now have permission to use the image, thanks to Dr. Steven Finkbeiner, Gladstone Institute of Neurological Disease, The Taube-Koret Center for Huntington's Disease Research, and the University of California San Francisco ! He also sends his compliments on our work to the article :) L∴V 00:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
- Slight delay while Dr Finkbeiner runs the license past his institution, seems WP requires part of licence to be 'free for commercial use', legal stuff eh! L∴V 13:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Another thing: Regarding the pubmed graph: I do not feel its a valid image: I suppose it was created to imply that much more research is being done right now; which I am sure its true; however in pubmed articles before its creation (in the nineteens I suppose) only appear when they have been cited; so if you made this graph in any other disease it would have the same form with less articles as you go back on time. I would say it is WP:Synth: "The graph shows more articles in pubmed so that means research is increasing"--Garrondo (talk) 08:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- That's interesting - I thought they were putting all papers up - hope this doesn't mean we miss any of those hidden gems that are uncited for years -as seems to happen so often in history! I ran a few tests on other conditions and it is the same graph - we'd better get all these articles written before the pubmed database so big we get lost travelling its corridors, so I have replaced the image with an image of Huntington's original paper as a stop-gap measure, top marks for diligence! L∴V 10:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Just spent the day learning svg editing / reinstalling computer to convert the basal ganglia diagram, now I notice it's not mentioned in the article - although looking at the structure of the brain there appear to be varying ways of describing it's groups of structures, I've added it to the gallery for now. (at least I'm better with svg, and basal ganglia has a cleaner image for the efforts!) L∴V 23:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe it could be of use: If you could eliminate all lines and letters, eliminate the superposition of the globus pallidus and maybe also convert the green of the cerebellum into yellow what would be left in pink would be the striatum; which is the main affected structure. I am not sure if I am explaining myself clearly enough; but maybe the image in this link may be of use: [5] (it is probably copyrighted). The globus pallidus is deeper in the brain (more centred) and that is why in the original file (File:Brain structure.gif) it appears with a dotted line so if you eliminate it from your drawing we will have a nice diagram of the affected structured (putamen and cuadate). Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 12:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Great, I'll get to it - will post up tomorrow - thanks Garrondo! L∴V 23:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Second draft - is this what you meant ? L∴V 20:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly: looks great. --Garrondo (talk) 08:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- I do not know much about image making; but the size of the image is quite small. I do not know if it could be made bigger from the start so when we put it in the article as "thumb" it is the same size as the others.--Garrondo (talk) 08:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Being svg, image size doesn't matter - it scales to whatever size you like, to change it's size we can just add |250px into the paramters ( 250 is an axample can be anything, (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IMGSIZE#Displayed_image_size manual of style allows resizing for diagrams and detailed images) note: the standard size for thumbs is 180. L∴V 10:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- I do not know much about image making; but the size of the image is quite small. I do not know if it could be made bigger from the start so when we put it in the article as "thumb" it is the same size as the others.--Garrondo (talk) 08:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly: looks great. --Garrondo (talk) 08:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Second draft - is this what you meant ? L∴V 20:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Great, I'll get to it - will post up tomorrow - thanks Garrondo! L∴V 23:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I found the first one and created the other two: it is not of high quality (a low resolution gif) but it is a nice picture. I plan to add the one with the arrows to the pathophisiology section; moving the striatum schema to the infobox and Huntington's portrait to history. If somebody believes the second one (no arrows) is better I do not really care. Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Coping With the Disease
Although dealing with death can be very difficult no matter what the situation, dealing with death due to Huntington's Disease is also hard. Dealing with death from Huntington's can be a challenge because the patient doesn't die only because of the disease, but because of other factors that contribute to the patients health due to the disease. Building a strong relationship with the person affected by Huntington's Disease while you still can always helps, also to make positive memories that a person can always remember. Learning about the disease and what will happen to the person affected while it is still early really helps the coping process and will in turn make it much easier (Mayo Clinic) (Clbratt (talk) 01:05, 26 March 2009 (UTC))
- I have been looking at the Caregiving and dementia article - I think it could be expanded to cover HD and would provide better coverage of these issues - not to mention it could then be linked to by other disorders with similar issues. L∴V 00:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
bibliography section clean up
There are too many external links: I am going to try to clean up the sections. In order to do so I will post here what I eliminate and why.
- Conomy, John P., M.D., J.D. "Dr. George Huntington and the Disease Bearing His Name". Retrieved 2008-08-15.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
- Is a very short biography: does not add anything
- Already in the article in the disease infobox
- Huntingtons disease-Like 2 is a different disease; so articles on it are not really relevant
- Stevenson, Charles S. (1934). "A Biography of George Huntington, M.D" (Microsoft Word). Bulletin of the Institute of the History of Medicine. II (2). Johns Hopkins University. Retrieved 2007-12-05.
{{cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter|month=
ignored (help)
- Another biography: this one is larger and of better quality. Additionally it was published in a peer-review journal and has historical importance. However this is the article about the disease and not about the person who gave name to it. The link is already in the George Huntington article; but since it is a document maybe it could be moved to wikisource. I doubt it will be copyrighted but we would have to make sure it is not. Nevertheless this one is the only one I am not really sure about eliminating it. More opinions would be welcomed.
Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 08:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- All good, if someone is interested in the material covered by the last reference they will find their way to the george huntington article and hence the ref. L∴V 00:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Is it time for GA??
The past weeks the article has received an important revamping: See before the begining of the MCOTW. Right now almost every sentence is referenced to reliable-sources: while the number of inline citations has multiplied the number of sources has been actually reduced from 140 to around 90. All sections have been converted to prose, there are images, and the lead covers the whole article... I believe that it should easily pass a good article nomination; and with the comments of the reviewer head towards a FAC in the short term. I believe its time of finishing the MCOTW and nominating the article. Comments??? --Garrondo (talk) 15:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to roll over the MCOTW article soon, but on a cursory review I think it is high time this article goes for GAC. I can't promise that I will review it, but at the moment there's only some really minor grammarcruft to deal with. Good luck! JFW | T@lk 20:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
- I believe it's ready - thanks to your hard work :) and I've been busy but have plenty of spare time in the coming week to address any issues. It would be nice to get the article to GA whilst being MCOTW as a feather in the collaborations cap. Feel free to nominate it Garrondo - I have had a little tidy up so we're ready for visitors, just need to do a an in-depth read / copyed of the article - but I'm sure it is in good shape - there are a couple of outstanding issues from the JFW's previous review which I'd like to address (listed below) - but they shouldn't be show stoppers . L∴V 01:49, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Genetics: Do we know why only paternal CAG repeats exhibit expansion and cause anticipation? If not, perhaps we should say that this is unknown -which I believe has something to do with the male gamete duplication of dna being more volatile.
- Done: I have added: This occurs because instability is greater in spermatogenesis than oogenesis (obtained from lancet seminar)--Garrondo (talk) 08:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Signs and symptoms - Physical: "slurring of speech" - can anything be said about the nature of the dysarthria? "Slurring" is nonspecific and could be bulbar, ataxic etc.
- The wording slurring of speech does not appear any more in the article. What is left is "any function that requires muscle control is affected, resulting in physical instability, abnormal facial expression, and difficulties chewing, swallowing and speaking" Is it enough?--Garrondo (talk) 08:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Done √ Sorry missed the question amongst the others - good point in that context I think it's ok L∴V 00:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- The wording slurring of speech does not appear any more in the article. What is left is "any function that requires muscle control is affected, resulting in physical instability, abnormal facial expression, and difficulties chewing, swallowing and speaking" Is it enough?--Garrondo (talk) 08:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Signs and symptoms - Physical: when do bradykinesia & dystonia occur? Instead of, or in addition to, the choreatiform movements? Can anything be said about their signifcance, or should they just be mentioned alongside the chorea?
- Done √ Explained a bit more detail,L∴V 00:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Request for new GA review
This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Huntington's disease/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment. I believe that, since "prior suggestions not implemented" isn't a quick-fail criterion, the page should have remained at GAC until reviewed.Bettering the Wiki (talk) 20:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- This is a misrepresentation of the facts. I reviewed this article in August 2008 and failed it when the editors were unable to implement all the recommendations in time. As is clear on your talkpage, Leevanjackson is not yet ready for another GAN. You are causing unnecessary chaos by insisting that your review is actioned. JFW | T@lk 21:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- "My review is actioned"? I think you misphrased your response, as there as obviously been little action here.Bettering the Wiki (talk) 21:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- To be clear, in Talk:Huntington's disease/GA2 I didn't quick fail the article. I regular failed it. I agree with JFW that this GAR is counterproductive, but I appreciate that the reverting has stopped. Goodone121, can you clarify which problems outlined in the second GAN review you don't feel are important to resolve and why? Thanks much, delldot on a public computer talk 03:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I listed.Bettering the Wiki (talk) 01:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Which you shouldn't have, because nobody has actually reviewed the article. You cannot list by default. Either conduct a proper review, or withdraw this request. I have left a message on your userpage clarifying why I have undone your actions. JFW | T@lk 19:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The template said that the initiating editor should close, and no, I am not using this as a "backdoor". I am simply adhering to policy. BTW, I reverted .Bettering the Wiki (talk) 19:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- GAR is for articles that are presently GA but need to be reassessed in view of major changes. It is not the way to get an article to GA status without due process. Your activities have been called "disruptive" by several editors and I would strongly counsel you to stop changing the status of this article. It puts contributors off making any significant contributions, and I believe you are thereby interfering with its improvement. JFW | T@lk 14:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- For the record, this GAR is now archived and Goodone121 has been blocked for using it as a tool in disruptive activities. The article is well on its way to becoming a good article, but that would be despite (rather than because of) this contributor's effort. JFW | T@lk 18:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I, again, have reverted. JFW, you may override me with a Community WP:GAR, which I reccomend. If you do, I will gladly back down.Bettering the Wiki (talk) 03:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm doing no such thing. You have been asked to leave this article alone, by myself and various previously uninvolved people. GAR, as has been explained to you, is not a way to have articles listed. It is a way to get articles delisted because they are listed as GA and shouldn't. JFW | T@lk 05:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Classification and Genetics Sections
I suggest
1. combining the Genetics section with the Classification section and
2. placing the result after the Signs and Symptoms section.
There is some repetition of material and I need help understanding the motives behind doing so. I understand the Medical Manual of Style suggests that we employ these specific headings (see WP:MEDMOS) I guess I'm questioning the MOS. How bold of me. I'm no expert, but the way I see it, the Classification is often based on etiology unless the cause is unknown. So I think it's redundant to have one section titled Classification and another called Cause or Genetics Again, I'm a layperson and new at this, so I have little regard for any established convention. But I do respect the need for convention, in general, especially if it aids the reader. If you wish to argue this way, I respect that. But I don't see the benefit in maintaining strict adherence to a convention that serves to muddle things. Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 06:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- I may agree with you; but lets see what other editors think. Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 07:39, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Never stop questioning DanglingDiagnosis, nothing is set in stone! As it happens the MOS does cover this, to quote: "Establishing the forms of the disease (Classification) can be an important first section. However, if such classification depends heavily on understanding the etiology, pathogenesis or symptoms, then that section may be better moved to later in the article.". Looking at the introduction of terminology and flow, your suggestion would be a great improvement... L∴V 13:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Afterthought, I wonder if the HDlike and genetic chorea information should be placed in the Diagnosis section? L∴V 14:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed; since it is differential diagnosis; and if classification dissapears it would better fit under that section.--Garrondo (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- I have given it a shot. I think no info has been lost.--Garrondo (talk) 07:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed; since it is differential diagnosis; and if classification dissapears it would better fit under that section.--Garrondo (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Afterthought, I wonder if the HDlike and genetic chorea information should be placed in the Diagnosis section? L∴V 14:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Never stop questioning DanglingDiagnosis, nothing is set in stone! As it happens the MOS does cover this, to quote: "Establishing the forms of the disease (Classification) can be an important first section. However, if such classification depends heavily on understanding the etiology, pathogenesis or symptoms, then that section may be better moved to later in the article.". Looking at the introduction of terminology and flow, your suggestion would be a great improvement... L∴V 13:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Senile chorea
Senile chorea exhibits the same movement symptoms as late-onset HD, but without any pyschological changes. PMID 8797208. The reference is a case study in a japanese journal: both reasons would be enough to eliminate the sentence from the article. On the other hand chorea is by itself a symptom, not a disease (i.e: it can appear with different diseases), so the sentence does not seem to really fit into the section. Comments?--Garrondo (talk) 07:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see it specifically in the ICD, so it should probably go. I was looking to cover any differential diagnosis - but chorea without pyschological changes is probably alrady inferred or should be cast into a more general statement. L∴V 11:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Ideas for further improvements towards attaining FA status
Following a successful GA promotion here are a few ideas that could be implemented to improve the article, I won't put them into the todo list yet as some will be a matter of opinion - that said a FA article should cover all opinions, feel free to add your own... L∴V 15:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Age of onset modifiers section, the link between CAG repeats and severity is there but doesn't follow on to age of onset concretely, in travels around the references there where plenty of references to the inability to predict from CAG accurately, but somewhere I saw a paper that said it accounted for 50%, and listed other potential genetic modifiers. Also inheritence of haplotypes could be explained here.L∴V
- Related: Merging of huntingtin protein and gene articles for a better support article. These have been merged by User:boghog2 today, but are still pending cleanup and a copyed.L∴V
- I don't feel the caregiving aspects and strains on family members are emphasised enough, although the references for these aspects may be harder to find than the current hard science ones we have for mechanism etc. L∴V
- Related: Caregiving and dementia might add support for above point - I am hoping to expand it to cover HD (and other degenerative conditions) L∴V
- Another look at possible relevant images (as always), possible including depictions of the movements / postures if that's appropriate. L∴V
- Possibly a chart of areas of brain affected / their general functions / maybe in order of prominence of damage. L∴V
- I would not do this: would be really hard to name all damaged areas or order them in order of prominence and I do not think that it will add much to the article.--Garrondo (talk) 16:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Similarly a chart for causes of mortality, if that's appropriate. L∴V
- I wanted to expand the epidemiology section, being one of my ideas to include a chart with different prevalences; however after searching for new references (pubmed, google scholar and google) I have not found any new data we could use. It seems we summarize most important findings regarding epidemiology, and that any missing gaps in the section are also in the scientific field. Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 12:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- HD third edition states that prevalence studies have found it cumbersome to perform classical epidemiology studies so most data is obtained using detailed family studies. It then goes on to summarize the ones available at the time. Regions covered (-d denotes more detailed) are US total, US white, US non-white, Venezuela-d, About 50% of Europe (Belgium, Denmark, England-d, Finland, France, Germany-d, Iceland, Italy=d, Malta, Norway, Poland, Sweden, Switzerland, Wales-d, and Yugoslavia), Ociana (Australia, New Zealand), Asia (India, Hong Kong, Japan-d), Africa and South Africa, the Pacific Islands, and Mauritius ( which is cited as an good example of the founder effect). It may be possible to integrate these but as you point out we have no really good source that gives a world view (aside from this book of course). Also noted that the book lists five areas of High prevalence = these are Lake Maracaibo, Tasmania, but also Moray Firth (Scotland - Lyon 1962),Gwent (South Wales - Walker et al 1981), and Northern Sweden (Sjorgen 1936).
- The book was published 2002 so there may be a few more gaps filled in, but it's a starting point. L∴V 14:33, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- I do not have access to the book but while I was searching several articles said it was one of the best sources at the moment. How did you get to the book? (Do you have it in paper or a accessed via web?). Maybe we could create a chart with some of the prevalence rates? The danger is that as we would have to select which countries to include in some way it would be a minor OR, but if we title the chart as "Examples of national prevalence rates" such danger would be partly diminished. Thoughts? --Garrondo (talk) 15:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Alas it is a hard copy (and was 200 miles away from me while we were in the process of GA)! L∴V 21:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- I have added the high prevalence areas and reworded the founder effect using the ref you give; however, could you add the pages for the epidemiology chapter? Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 16:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- √done L∴V 21:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- I do not have access to the book but while I was searching several articles said it was one of the best sources at the moment. How did you get to the book? (Do you have it in paper or a accessed via web?). Maybe we could create a chart with some of the prevalence rates? The danger is that as we would have to select which countries to include in some way it would be a minor OR, but if we title the chart as "Examples of national prevalence rates" such danger would be partly diminished. Thoughts? --Garrondo (talk) 15:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Can I get a decision on capitalization and text style for Htt and mHtt? Even if it turns out to be the 'wrong' way, it has to be better than inconsistency: I'm seeing allcaps, mixed case, all lowercase, plain text, and italics in various combinations. One way or another, I'm gonna standardize that formatting the next time I give this a full copyedit. Is it time for that copyedit yet? I don't want to tackle it too early, if significant content changes are still to come. Maralia (talk) 15:26, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- I propose we use HTT or huntingtin fot the gene, HTT or huntingtin for the protein, and mHTT or mutant huntingtin for the altered protein. I am also wondering if we should consider not using the abbreviation which might help with readability. As for differing styles for other species, I think we ignore that for now - there seems to be an understanding of these complications amongst experts, and it doesn't really matter to the article L∴V 00:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Reasoning::MedicalGeneticist suggested HTT for gene, HTT for protein and mHTT for mutant form of protein, I use Huntingtin for full gene and huntingtin for protein names, but that may be wrong. The official genenames [[6]] states HTT / huntingtin for the gene name. Some confusion may appear in papers since genes named after people are initially capitalized [7], but since it isn't exactly his name then it is not capitalized. Another line of confusion will be that the mouse gene is lowercase (htt) and a lot of research papers will be using this. The manual of style states that gene names should be italicized and takes http://www.genenames.org/guidelines.html as the authoritive source for any conventions - although it doesn't state explicitly that the full name is italicized too. As for the protein, all caps HTT, the genebank and omim etc use lowercase huntingtin for full name. Genenames cites [genome society] for nonclemanture of variations of these proteins which do have case of lower case suffixes describing the alteration so mHTT is probably correct.L∴V 00:03, 7 May 2009 (U
- AS for the copyedit, I'd leave it for a week or two, and we'll definitely take you up on the offer before nominating, p.s. if you find any areas that could be improved or expanded upon that would make copyeditting easier, just shout! L∴V 00:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Is it needed?
Is the following sentence really needed (Macroscopic changes due to mHTT)? it is unreferenced and does not really add much...: Depending on the precise distribution of damage, the intrusive behaviors may consist of complex patterns such as walking motions, simple movements such as twitching a limb, or many other combinations of motor elements. Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 14:08, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think I added that. The reason I did is because one thing that seems to be missing from this article is a sense of what chorea is like. Readers can of course look at chorea, but it would be nice to have at least a sketchy description in the article. It isn't just simple twitches and jerks, it's a lot more complicated than that. User:looie496
- Definitely need a comprehensive description of the chorea in the article somewhere, we might be able to use a less scientific reference for a more readable description ( the medical references are a little too clinical to form a mental image but will support this ref ). L∴V 00:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- If the intention was to describe chorea then its place is signs and symptoms; but references and rewriting are needed. On the other hand I am not completely sure on the comment regarding distribution of damage; since I do not think that the relationship location-symptoms is so straight-forward. Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 07:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- I was going beyond my level of knowledge there -- different parts of the striatum are associated with different motor behaviors, so the detailed symptoms pretty much are forced to depend on the distribution of damage; but I don't know the literature well enough to give sources to back that up. I won't object if this is removed. Looie496 (talk) 15:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- If the intention was to describe chorea then its place is signs and symptoms; but references and rewriting are needed. On the other hand I am not completely sure on the comment regarding distribution of damage; since I do not think that the relationship location-symptoms is so straight-forward. Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 07:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Definitely need a comprehensive description of the chorea in the article somewhere, we might be able to use a less scientific reference for a more readable description ( the medical references are a little too clinical to form a mental image but will support this ref ). L∴V 00:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Bates book
First of all; after reading the epidemiology section of the book I do not think we can improve much the section on epidemiology of the article. Most studies and prevalence figures that appear in the book are area specific so there is no point in naming them. I believe the section is Ok now as it is.
Secondly: The book is cited several times in different sections, and to become a FA we would have to give page numbers. The best option would be to give chapter citations as I have done in epidemiology; instead of only one citation for all the book. Lee; you would have to look for the chapter for every time we use the book and format it into the citation; as I do not have access to it.
Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 13:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- ...Will do, very busy at the mo, but hopefully will have some time to spare later this week, I need to look into citations of different pages from the same book, it seems a bit messy to have repeated citation entries in the reference section when it's just the page numbers changing , hopefully there's a way to have main info then subreferences for pages used, but it may be wishfull hopefullnes on my part. Good to know the epidemiology section is up to scratch according to the book. L∴V 13:39, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- As far as I know there are two possible ways of doing it: in social science wikipedia articles where a few books are used many times the most common thing is to create a citations section with only the author, title and page, and a second section with the full data on bibliography (See just as an example Structural history of the Roman military; featured in the main page this month). However I believe that for an article such as this one, with only a few books, and being scientific books with most times separate authors for each chapter it is better to cite the chapter with it is pages as part of a bigger collection (the book). Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 07:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, I looked into short footnotes, but as it stands fine at the moment and I have referenced to chapter-wide - is that enough or do we need to go into exact pages? Another note: when I first started editing I used the Bates book to beef the whole article up, but then realised it needed these 'reference' things. Unfortunately I took the book and dereferenced the information the primary reference the book got it from :( So you see we ended up with a number of primary refs and little refs to the bates/secondary sources. L∴V 10:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- This is perfect. Same as we do not cite the exact page in an article we do not need to do it in a book. Regarding the use of the book for creating the whole article: there is no problem with that since we have already fixed it using the lancet article to check and reference any unreferenced or primary referenced statements and right now there are very few primary refs (and most are due to historical interest). I also want to say that you have done a great work in the history section. One improvement might be to add some info on Gorman and Waters descriptions as there is for Lund. Apart from that the section from my point of view is finished.Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 11:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds perfect.--Garrondo (talk) 14:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thankyou! I'm pretty happy with it, but I think the last two paragraphs aren't complete, missing explicit discovery of the repeat expansion and the last paragraph seems a bit 'rushed' ... 15:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds perfect.--Garrondo (talk) 14:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- This is perfect. Same as we do not cite the exact page in an article we do not need to do it in a book. Regarding the use of the book for creating the whole article: there is no problem with that since we have already fixed it using the lancet article to check and reference any unreferenced or primary referenced statements and right now there are very few primary refs (and most are due to historical interest). I also want to say that you have done a great work in the history section. One improvement might be to add some info on Gorman and Waters descriptions as there is for Lund. Apart from that the section from my point of view is finished.Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 11:19, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, I looked into short footnotes, but as it stands fine at the moment and I have referenced to chapter-wide - is that enough or do we need to go into exact pages? Another note: when I first started editing I used the Bates book to beef the whole article up, but then realised it needed these 'reference' things. Unfortunately I took the book and dereferenced the information the primary reference the book got it from :( So you see we ended up with a number of primary refs and little refs to the bates/secondary sources. L∴V 10:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- As far as I know there are two possible ways of doing it: in social science wikipedia articles where a few books are used many times the most common thing is to create a citations section with only the author, title and page, and a second section with the full data on bibliography (See just as an example Structural history of the Roman military; featured in the main page this month). However I believe that for an article such as this one, with only a few books, and being scientific books with most times separate authors for each chapter it is better to cite the chapter with it is pages as part of a bigger collection (the book). Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 07:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
History
As this research became better known and accepted, the misdiagnosis of HD as alcoholism or manic depression reduced, and more appropriate care methods were applied, leading to a reduction in mortality due to starvation or dehydration.
This needs important back-up and has none...At no place we say that it was misdiagnosed with alcoholism (and I doubt it can ever be misdiagnosed with it since they have nothing in common) o manic depression. Additionally I also doubt that a correct diagnosis reduced mortality due to starvation or dehydration. Bests. --Garrondo (talk) 07:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I have finally eliminated it for the moment.--Garrondo (talk) 08:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- I believe the misdiagnosis part came from the woodie guthrie article, but as you point out we need a more general ref than one case (if it was generally misdiagnosed that-is). Whilst reading through Bates - history I did notice that one of the earliest papers on treatment was focused on nutritional management, so the starvation/dehydration may have been a major factor but this situation may have improved as healthcare improved irrespective of HD being descibed/diagnosed.L∴V 10:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- It seems possible to me that chorea could have been misidentified as delirium tremens. Looie496 (talk) 15:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Very important discovery
Although I'm generally against covering "news" in Wikipedia, it looks to me like the study described here, by Solomon Snyder's group at Johns Hopkins, is strong enough and important enough that it ought to be used in the article very soon. Looie496 (talk) 00:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Amazing, a landmark discovery if they're correct! It does seem to fill out a few holes in our knowledge doesn't it ? The Johns Hopkins press release studies a protein call Rhes, that is found almost exclusively in the same areas that are damaged by HD, and interacts with the mHTT clumps, breaking them up and reportedly causing cell death. It pases my own intuite test (although I suspect there will be modifiers to the process) but I think we need to find/wait for the full study first before fully integrating it, but we could include it in reasearch or mention it as one of the potential interacting proteins. L∴V 10:33, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure if this is what you meant, but the paper itself is here. Looie496 (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well its all over the popular press now, I also see Nancy Wexler has commented saying something like it looks like a promising pathway for treatment. So how long do we wait for it to be peer reviewed in the journal I wonder? L∴V 09:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- There's a positive commentary in Nature now too, so I've gone ahead and added a couple of sentences to the Cellular changes section, while simplifying the material there a bit. Please check the validity of my edits. Looie496 (talk) 17:46, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well its all over the popular press now, I also see Nancy Wexler has commented saying something like it looks like a promising pathway for treatment. So how long do we wait for it to be peer reviewed in the journal I wonder? L∴V 09:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure if this is what you meant, but the paper itself is here. Looie496 (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Lead
I think we need to simplify the lead a little bit, as it has to be the most accessible part of the article. Please let me know what you think of this version:
Huntington's disease, also known as Huntington's chorea, sometimes abbreviated as HD, is a neurodegenerative genetic disorder that is the most common genetic cause of abnormal repetitive movements. It is caused by a mutation in the Huntingtin gene, which normally provides the genetic code for the huntingtin protein. The mutation results in a different form of the protein, which gradually damages areas of the brain, although the exact way it does this is unknown. The first physical symptoms are usually noticed in patients between 35 and 44 years of age, but can begin at any age. The rare occasions when the disease begins before the age of 20 are classified as juvenile HD (also known as akinetic-rigid HD or Westphal variant HD), which progresses faster with slightly different symptoms. HD is much less common in people of Asian or African descent than in those of Western European. Genetic testing for HD has been possible since the discovery of the gene that causes the disease. The genetic test can be performed before the onset of symptoms and on embryos, raising heated ethical debates. Genetic counseling has developed to aid individuals address these issues and has become a model for other genetically dominant diseases.
Because it is inherited dominantly, an affected parent has a 50% chance of passing it to each child and the disease runs strongly in families, often affecting several generations. The exact way HD affects an individual varies, even between family members, but its symptoms progress similarly for most individuals. The earliest symptoms are a general lack of coordination and an unsteady gait. As the disease advances, uncoordinated, jerky body movements become more apparent, along with a decline in mental abilities and behavioral and psychiatric problems. Physical abilities are gradually impeded until coordinated movement becomes very difficult, and mental abilities generally decline into dementia. Although the disorder itself is not fatal, complications such as pneumonia, heart disease, and physical injury from falls reduce life expectancy to around twenty years after symptoms begin. There is no cure for HD, and full-time care is often required in the later stages of the disease, but there are emerging treatments to relieve some of its symptoms.
Lay organizations, first founded in the 1960s and increasing in number, have been working to increase public awareness, to provide support for individuals and their families, and to promote research. These organizations where instrumental in finding the gene in 1993. Since that time there have been important discoveries every few years and understanding of the disease is improving. Current research directions include determining the exact mechanism of the disease, improving animal models to expedite research, clinical trials of pharmaceuticals to treat symptoms or slow the progression of the disease, and studying procedures such as stem cell therapy with the goal of repairing damage caused by the disease.
I've also copyedited a bit. Awadewit (talk) 21:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the first para hope thats OK ϢereSpielChequers 22:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- That's better, yes. Awadewit (talk) 22:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- Any readability improvement is a boon, the lead has developed organically and was more an accumulation of facts strung together rather than a carefully planned intro. A little copyed myself. My thoughts for important facets are; maybe keep the note about genetic counselling/testing being used as a model since this has an impact that affects other disorders, maybe we should expand the mechanism section slightly ( possibly include the very recent #Very_important_discovery to give the sense of progress in research). One more note - there is talk in Cryptic C62s first comment about leaving out refs for the lead, any thoughts ...?L∴V 11:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds great to me.--Garrondo (talk) 11:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- I've added a sentence on the counselling, but I'm not really the best person to expand the mechanism section - perhaps someone else could do that? There is generally no need to reference items in the lead, since the lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, where everything would be sourced. Awadewit (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Thankyou and scratch the specifics of mechanism - which arent necessary in the intro. I am wondering about combining the last two paragraphs now. I think this could be incorporated into the article soon. L∴V 12:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- I've added a sentence on the counselling, but I'm not really the best person to expand the mechanism section - perhaps someone else could do that? There is generally no need to reference items in the lead, since the lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, where everything would be sourced. Awadewit (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds great to me.--Garrondo (talk) 11:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Aargh - got carried away..sorry! Have just split the third paragraph into the other three, added a couple of sentences and reworded others. Maybe a bit too much! Consider this a suggested edit and if it is too much revert to what it was keeping any bits you liked .. L∴V 14:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- I think it is fine. Does anyone else have any other improvements to suggest? Awadewit (talk) 18:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Shall we paste this into the article? Awadewit (talk) 14:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I can't see any major objects - can always be edited later. I was leaving the honour to yourself. L∴V 17:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Done. Awadewit (talk) 17:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I just did another copy-edit of the first paragraph, which I think had become a bit disjointed. Looie496 (talk) 18:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I've taken out the dance part - that is not really essential information that needs to be in the lead. If you have any ideas about how to structure the lead to make it flow better, I'm all ears. I realize that the first paragraph in particular has a lot of topics, but I haven't been able to come up with a way to present the material in a more coherent manner. Awadewit (talk) 18:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- It seems okay to me as written now. I put in the "dance" part because I believe there is great value in giving the reader a "mental picture", and not one reader in a hundred will know what chorea is without clicking the link; but I won't push it. Looie496 (talk) 19:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Currently 'abnormal repetitive movements' not quite right, how about 'random uncontrolled muscle contractions and postures' for starters ... L∴V 16:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
- It seems okay to me as written now. I put in the "dance" part because I believe there is great value in giving the reader a "mental picture", and not one reader in a hundred will know what chorea is without clicking the link; but I won't push it. Looie496 (talk) 19:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I've taken out the dance part - that is not really essential information that needs to be in the lead. If you have any ideas about how to structure the lead to make it flow better, I'm all ears. I realize that the first paragraph in particular has a lot of topics, but I haven't been able to come up with a way to present the material in a more coherent manner. Awadewit (talk) 18:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I just did another copy-edit of the first paragraph, which I think had become a bit disjointed. Looie496 (talk) 18:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Done. Awadewit (talk) 17:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I can't see any major objects - can always be edited later. I was leaving the honour to yourself. L∴V 17:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- Shall we paste this into the article? Awadewit (talk) 14:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
- I think it is fine. Does anyone else have any other improvements to suggest? Awadewit (talk) 18:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Any readability improvement is a boon, the lead has developed organically and was more an accumulation of facts strung together rather than a carefully planned intro. A little copyed myself. My thoughts for important facets are; maybe keep the note about genetic counselling/testing being used as a model since this has an impact that affects other disorders, maybe we should expand the mechanism section slightly ( possibly include the very recent #Very_important_discovery to give the sense of progress in research). One more note - there is talk in Cryptic C62s first comment about leaving out refs for the lead, any thoughts ...?L∴V 11:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Comments from Cryptic C62
Here are some comments regarding the article's prose:
Resolved issues
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Current comments
No more to come! --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- Are you sure! L∴V 00:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
- Aye, unless you'd like me to start again from the beginning... Eek! I think that, after nearly 4 months and more than 100 comments, I'm satisfied :) Good work, mate. Talk me if you'd like me to take a look at any of your future projects. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 19:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
- Are you insane! ... of course I can't stop you starting again, but I think you pointed out anything majorly amiss already! It would be a shame, given your exposure to the article, not to ask for any general comments you may have for enhancement of it. ( I already have anote to expand the care section from amongst your previous comments ). e.g. tone, terminology, prominance of topics covered, that sort of thing. Saying that if you have seen enough for now I wouldn't blame you - it's been a blast and many thanks for your thorough reviewing! L∴V 15:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks Cryptic for your review... I feel it is going to make the article much easier to read once it is finished. Best.--Garrondo (talk) 13:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
- It appears the combined recommendations and copyeds already applied have been good enough to gain FA status :) You have raised good points thus far, and I'll continue to address them of course. If you carry on at this rate the article will become bullet proof - many thanks! Flu and shock at passing a FA article are slowing me down at the moment but full speed will be resumed shortly ... L∴V 22:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, I plan to continue reviewing the article. Part of the reason I work on the talk page rather than the FAC is to allow the review to continue regardless of the outcome of the FAC. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 01:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
- It appears the combined recommendations and copyeds already applied have been good enough to gain FA status :) You have raised good points thus far, and I'll continue to address them of course. If you carry on at this rate the article will become bullet proof - many thanks! Flu and shock at passing a FA article are slowing me down at the moment but full speed will be resumed shortly ... L∴V 22:03, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to the reviewers
I'd just like to say a big THANKYOU to the editors who reviewed this article, who were very understanding of the copyediting needed and made the whole collaboration actually quite pleasant, most of whom also chipped in and applied a little copyediting of their own :) Peace and happiness to you all .. L∴V 00:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Archiving
I have archived all comments that led to FA as they are now obsolete. Since Cryptic C62 comments are quite long it would be a good idea to archive them once the review its finished. Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 10:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Garrondo! There's a few discussions which I think we should leave as recurring e.g. capitalization, italizisation and possibly the links to past GA/FA reviews, basically the bits that future editors can use.... L∴V 11:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- True: I did not remember those: Maybe we could copy those again here.--Garrondo (talk) 11:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- Done.--Garrondo (talk) 11:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
- True: I did not remember those: Maybe we could copy those again here.--Garrondo (talk) 11:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Archive of FA related leadup - and continuing review by Cryptic C62 is now completed.
This is an archive of past discussions about Huntington's disease. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |