Talk:Hunter's Home
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File:Jagerswoning Rijksmuseum SK-A-1157.jpeg to appear as POTD soon
[edit]Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Jagerswoning Rijksmuseum SK-A-1157.jpeg will be appearing as picture of the day on August 17, 2018. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2018-08-17. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 02:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Hunter's Home is an oil painting by Henry Voordecker held by the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. A typical genre painting, it depicts a hunter at home, surrounded by animals and members of his family. The work is in a Biedermeier style, and its themes are characterized by the reinforced feelings of security, gemütlichkeit, and traditional simplicity, portraying a sentimental view of the world.Painting: Henry Voordecker
Dog next to hunter in doorway
[edit]This dog is potentially a dutch partridge dog.74.38.73.235 (talk) 13:03, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
- Good spot. That seems likely. Do you have a source confirming it? And what is the breed of the other dog, and the cow, and what is that the red flowered plant? Are the vine and the plant symbolic of domesticism and marriage? And why a magpie? 213.205.240.133 (talk) 09:40, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'd suggest a red pelargonium e.g. one like this. As for the magpie, I think it was often used in Northern European art as a symbol of death e.g. by Bosch and Breugel (see this entry). So I'd suggest it's the closest that Voordecker would allow this pretty sentimental picture to come to the realities of "hunting". I'd be more interested to ask "what type of gun?"(carefully placed just between dog and child), but again it's all just cosy Gemütlichkeit here. Hardly the blood-dripping hunting prizes that the title might suggest (perhaps partly because the translated English title is ambiguous, suggesting "the hunter is home" as well as the possessive "hunter's". I see that the Rijksmuseum itself translates it as "Home of the Hunter"). Martinevans123 (talk) 10:15, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Pelargonium: yes, that seems likely. I just noticed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hunter's Home, where someone suggested a geranium.
- Magpie as a symbol of death? As in Magpie on the Gallows? Perhaps. Is it a symbol of death in The Magpie (Monet)? Magpies in art are not common, but then they are seldom kept as a caged pets.
- Gun: given the date, probably a hunting rifle, but
there is little of it visible andsources are thin. Scratch that - now I look more closely, it looks like a percussion cap. Probably rifled, if for hunting.
- Gun: given the date, probably a hunting rifle, but
- Title: yes, the Rijksmuseum gives this work the English title "The Home of a Hunter". I can't find a good source calling it "Hunter's Home", so does it need to be moved? On the other hand "Hunter's Home" seems a better translation of "Jagerswoning". It seeems to have been known by other titles in Dutch over the years, such as "Jagers-huishouding".
- Sources: More generally, it would be nice to add some good scholarly sources for the work, not just the Rijksmusuem catalogue: some in Dutch are mentioned at the AFD. 213.205.240.133 (talk) 10:46, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- I was assuming that the magpie has been trapped, not really a pet. There's one in The Poulterer's Shop by Willem van Mieris in the Louvre: [1] (allegedly, but I can't find a image of that paiting anywhere). "Hunter's Home" is an ambiguous translation of "Jagerswoning" or "Jagers-huishouding". I'd be happy to use the original title. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:53, 18 August 2018 (UTC) p.s. I think "geranium" is often the common name for "pelargonium" (although we would probably benefit from the expert advice of an eminent plantsman).
- What/which original title? The current one seems ok to me. Of course, if we followed the closing of the AfD & merged to the artist, this would be less of an issue. I'm not against that. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Jagerswoning. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:31, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- As the title? No, we normally translate, and rightly so. Johnbod (talk) 14:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Not sure if that's always rightly from an educational perspective. But translations provide a mixed benefit, I feel. Just a suggestion. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:33, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- From WP:VAMOS "Foreign language titles are generally only to be used if they are used by most art historians or critics writing in English – e.g. Las Meninas or Les Demoiselles d'Avignon." Johnbod (talk) 14:38, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. So, what's the balance for this work? Is it even well-known by English-speaking historians or critics? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:42, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- No, clearly it isn't. You & I might be able to work out what most Italian/German/Dutch titles mean, but what about Russian or Polish? And most readers won't even get far with French or Spanish. The translations into English by foreign museums, done pretty casually by interns etc in many cases I'd expect, are often inappropriate (or downright ungrammatical), but the Rijksmuseum's The Home of a Hunter for this seems ok. Johnbod (talk) 14:57, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'd argue that for a painting by a Belgian artist, painted in Belgium in 1826, a Flemish title (or maybe a Dutch one) should take precedence, unless better known by an English (or perhaps other language) title. If we went to the gallery in Amsterdam, I think we might find Jagerswoning as a title on the frame of that work, but we'd also see The Home of a Hunter given (in parentheses) on the description panel on the wall next to it. I would have thought that a gallery with the reputation of the Rijksmuseum would have a whole team of professionally-qualified specialists to do that kind of work. Just my guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- The Rijksmuseum is probably better than most, but that last is not a hypothesis that survives much time spent in Continental museums, or reading their own publications. I've always assumed that the job of translating for the Louvre is given by tradition to the mistress of the deputy Minister of Culture. Johnbod (talk) 15:41, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Ah ha. Maybe I could get a discount if I said I knew you? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- The Rijksmuseum is probably better than most, but that last is not a hypothesis that survives much time spent in Continental museums, or reading their own publications. I've always assumed that the job of translating for the Louvre is given by tradition to the mistress of the deputy Minister of Culture. Johnbod (talk) 15:41, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'd argue that for a painting by a Belgian artist, painted in Belgium in 1826, a Flemish title (or maybe a Dutch one) should take precedence, unless better known by an English (or perhaps other language) title. If we went to the gallery in Amsterdam, I think we might find Jagerswoning as a title on the frame of that work, but we'd also see The Home of a Hunter given (in parentheses) on the description panel on the wall next to it. I would have thought that a gallery with the reputation of the Rijksmuseum would have a whole team of professionally-qualified specialists to do that kind of work. Just my guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- No, clearly it isn't. You & I might be able to work out what most Italian/German/Dutch titles mean, but what about Russian or Polish? And most readers won't even get far with French or Spanish. The translations into English by foreign museums, done pretty casually by interns etc in many cases I'd expect, are often inappropriate (or downright ungrammatical), but the Rijksmuseum's The Home of a Hunter for this seems ok. Johnbod (talk) 14:57, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. So, what's the balance for this work? Is it even well-known by English-speaking historians or critics? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:42, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- From WP:VAMOS "Foreign language titles are generally only to be used if they are used by most art historians or critics writing in English – e.g. Las Meninas or Les Demoiselles d'Avignon." Johnbod (talk) 14:38, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Not sure if that's always rightly from an educational perspective. But translations provide a mixed benefit, I feel. Just a suggestion. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:33, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- As the title? No, we normally translate, and rightly so. Johnbod (talk) 14:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- Jagerswoning. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:31, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
- What/which original title? The current one seems ok to me. Of course, if we followed the closing of the AfD & merged to the artist, this would be less of an issue. I'm not against that. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)