Talk:Hossein Ali Mirza

about some of problems

Z1720 in few of this cases, source just doesn't explain, like in "The court of Ali Mirza, in comparison with other princes, was very magnificent and influenced by customs of ancient Iran, and was equal to the royal court of Fath-Ali Shah and Ottoman sultans." source just didn't get any further in details same as "The public's perception of Ali Mirza was that was a cruel and ruthless ruler, and he was not supported by the court"Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Amir Ghandi, I have some follow-up questions below, based on the clarification needed tags I added:

• in what way were the courts "equal"? Were they equal in the artistic expression, money spent on the decor, or on the political influence in the region? If this is not explained, it might need to be removed.
• "and he was not supported by the court" Which court? The court of Fars? Also, if he is not supported by the court, I assume that means he was not supported by the political elites of the city.

Let me know if you need me to explain any other clarification needed tags. I know I added a lot of tags, and that's because I didn't want to make assumptions that were not supported by the sources. I conducted this copyedit so that I could assess it for its DYK nomination. For future nominations, I suggest using the services of the Guild of Copyeditors. I use them to edit my articles and they are fantastic at fixing up grammar and prose, as well as highlighting parts of the article that are unclear. They would do a much better job than I could ever hope to do. I'll leave more comments in the article's DYK nom shortly. Z1720 (talk) 18:28, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Z1720 i'm very glad that you are helping me with copyedit edit problems let me quote for you from the sources:

1 "court of Hossein Ali Mirza was one of most magnificent of its own in Fath-Ali Shah's Iran. sources recorded that yearly budget of just Festivals, Harem and Food was bigger that Shah's court. poets and musicians from around of iran and even neighbour countrie's, would came to Hossein Ali Mirza to with just being present in one of his massive festivals gets the Fame. thus by Qajar historians, he was not just compared to his father but Ottoman courts that were widely known" Aghazadeh page 6

2 "Prince-Governor wasn't able to manage the war with his nephew, he was hated among tribal leaders, people and even his owen court"

and about nearly war with oman and being unofficial independent, Davies literally says that their wives were on dispute and Shah had no power to order Hossein Ali MirzaAmir Ghandi (talk) 19:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:05, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Amir Ghandi thanks for your response. I added prose to the article to clarify my concerns in the two sentences above, which allowed me to removed those tags. For the rest of the tags, I encourage you to add the information yourself as it would be faster than posting the quote here and having me put it in the article.

I am still concerned that the hook is not supported by the source. Can you specifically quote a passage from a source that says a dispute between the wives almost caused a war? In my opinion, the source is stating that the wife's instigation of war was possible; this is not the same as describing an event that actually happened. Furthermore, I wouldn't approve the hook anyways because the article doesn't give additional details of this event, so the reader would be left wondering why the wives were fighting. Can you get any additional info from the sources on this event? If not, is there another hook you would like to propose? Z1720 (talk) 19:25, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

"It was this rivalry that had a few years earlier caused the arrest by Muscat and subsequent murder of the Bushire governor Shaikh cAbd al-Rasfil. In 1831 the Princes, sons to Farmanfarma, themselves took up their mother's cause in the face of blood-vengeance demands from the Shaikh's sons. Furthermore, in order to ground their own authority at Bushire, they played on local factions there to the extent of severely undermining the foundations of the Shaikh-Governor's power." i think i must change it Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree, I don't think this text supports that they almost went to war, but there is some interesting information there. I suggest proposing some ALT hooks and I will assess them. Z1720 (talk) 22:28, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

copy edits

Amitchell125 hey just wanted to inform you that the copy edits are done.Amir Ghandi (talk) 21:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hossein Ali Mirza/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Daniel Case (talk · contribs) 07:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Alright, I will take this as it is at the left of the list of oldest unreviewed nominations, and I owe quite a few reviews.

As usual I will print this out, read it over, do a light copy edit, and get back with my thoughts within the week. Daniel Case (talk) 07:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

OK ... done with the copy edit now. It wasn't too bad; basically a lot of phrasing that, while grammatical, was kind of clunky and awkward, very non-native English, and I improved that.

It's a very straightforward article; short though it is I see that it has tried to tell us what there is to tell us. I didn't find myself asking questions about things that seemed missing. Given that it's longer than the Farsi version, I have no quarrel there.

There are some things I'd like cleared up, though, and for that reason it will be on hold for the usual week or so. If English is an issue (as it was at the first, I'd be OK with making the edits myself if the nominator is comfortable with that.

Most of the names tend to have little to naught to add.

• There are a lot of names given without clear context as to who they are and why they were doing what they were doing. I assume that at some point, they will be the subjects of articles and there will be links. But until then, some more explaining inline would be nice.

• We should make clear at the beginning of the biography that as the fifth son of Fath-Ali Shah, he was fifth in line for the throne, so that his later attempt to claim it seems less out of the blue.
  • Added in the lead

• "...almost started a war with Muscat." This is interesting, but there's not much more in the article itself (and you have to be able to make the connection between Muscat in the intro and Oman in the body ... not everyone outside that part of the world knows those two places are related). I see from the DYK nom that there may be some issues with sourcing and the extent to which it really happened. If it did, I think we need to know more about what this conflict was and how it was averted. If not, maybe we should take it out of the article. (I have not been able to access the source in full yet)
  • Regarding your first point, in the source of use, it was stated as Muscat thus the naming. moreover, it seems that my wording misled the point for it was more like a conflict that ended quickly
  • Replaced it with the tax arrears issue

• In discussing his viziers, we might want to add per this source that he had ten in total.

Done

• That source also describes the bread-price riots differently: Mirza Hada Fatai (one of those people who just pops into the story without explanation as to who he is) is not described as having issued the fatwa, but rather he who it was issued against by the Sheikh al-Islam. There does not appear to have been a similar proclamation of Nabi Khan. We should also include more details about the resolution: the bakers getting bastinadoed, and Khan's punishment coming after Khan Amin al-Dawlah came down from Teheran to investigate. As it is the two events do not seem connected.

Reworded

• "plundered roads" It's in the source, so I want to be sure that what's meant here: what we'd call in the West highway robbery? Gangs of bandits that went up and down the roads between cities robbing travellers? I mean, it sounds without that clarification that they could have been stripping the pavement and selling it.
  • Indeed its regarding to bandits

• "Ali Mirza sent troops to stop the rebels, but those defied him, too" Just want to make clear that what's meant here is that the troops mutinied? And did they do this after reaching the rebels? Or just not march on them at all? The way it's written it's hard to tell.
  • Yes they mutinied and unfortunately i do not know at what point

• The Iranica article also gives some more detail about Ali Mirza having to cough up the 200,000 tomans as tax arrears to his father. We should include that.

Done

• Again, according to the Iranica article cited, it was not Ali Mirza who was blinded but his brother (who was also sent to Arbadil). All the former got from the experience of being jailed was the cholera that killed him.
  • You're right there.

Also, there are some issues with how the sources are cited that I will enumerate tomorrow (OK, later today; I have to go to bed). The article is, as I said ...

 On hold Daniel Case (talk) 07:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, just finishing up ...

In an article where we have sources in two languages, we need to more clearly indicate which source is in what language and provide the original language title as well as an English translation of that title. So, some have deficiencies in providing all the information about the source that they should:

Needs indication that source is in Farsi as well as title in that language: Edrisi, Ghaem Magami, Shamim, History group, Ghadimi Gahari Needs Farsi title: Arefi, Shahbazi Farahani, Bamdad, Khazai, Rajabi

• • Do we realy need to add the Farsi titles? I Dont find it necessary when there's already mentioned that the source in Persian.

It's a convention of citations that any foreign-language source citation must include not only the language but the title in the original language as well. See Template:Cite web/doc#Foreign language and translated title. Daniel Case (talk) 05:25, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Done

Daniel Case (talk) 19:11, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: I think i regarded all of your points, if anything is amiss ping me, otherwise, i await for your conclusion

@Amir Ghandi: OK. Good. Nothing left over.  Passed Daniel Case (talk) 07:46, 31 January 2022 (UTC)