Talk:Horse Grenadier Guards

A fact from Horse Grenadier Guards appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 11 June 2008, and was viewed approximately 1,506 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Horse Grenadier Guards were a unit of the British Household Cavalry until 1788, originally serving as mounted infantry to reinforce the Horse Guards Regiment?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/June.

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Dates?

A source here and here (Google books pages from The Handbook of British Regiments by Christopher Chant) gives different dates and details - three troops raised in 1678, not 1687; the 4th (Scottish) Troop raised in 1686; first three troops reorganised as 1st Troop of Horse Grenadier Guards in 1709 and Scottish Troop becoming the 2nd Troop of Horse Grenadier Guards (presumably in the same year); and the merger in 1788.

An MOD diagram here mentions the "1st, King’s Troop of Grenadiers", "2nd, Queen’s Troop of Grenadiers", "3rd, The Duke’s Troop of Grenadiers" and "4th Troop of Grenadiers (Disbanded 1689)" - presumably due in each case to their association with the relevant troop of the Life Guards - and also mentions a "2nd, Scots Troop of Horse Grenadier Guards" in 1702, and further redesignations in 1709 and 1788. -- Theramin (talk) 23:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And Horse Guards Regiment calls then "The Greens". -- Theramin (talk) 23:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let's see. I pulled my data from an archived copy of the now-defunct regiments.org (T.F. Mills). Their data is as follows:

1st Troop of Grenadiers (formerly part of The King's Troop of Horse Guards) separated in 1687
2nd Troop of Grenadiers (formerly part of The Queen's Troop of Guards) separated in 1687
3rd Troop of Grenadiers (formerly part of The Duke of York's Troop of Guards) separated in 1687

All of the aforementioned consolidated 1693 as the Horse Grenadier Guards.

Scots Troop of Grenadiers raised 1702; transferred to English establishment in 1709 as the 2nd Troop, Horse Grenadier Guards, at which point the amalgamation of the first three became 1st Troop.

The two troops abolished 1788.

The "Handbook of British Regiments" suggests that Mills missed 4th or Dutch Troop, raised 1689 on the English establishment and disbanded 1699. The former Earl of Portland's Troop of Horse Guards was brought from Dutch to English service in 1689 and returned to Dutch service in 1699, so presumably the two were associated.

That leaves us only with 1687 vs 1678 to explain. I suspect 1678 is when they were first raised and attached to the Horse Guards troops, and 1687 when they were administratively separated from the Horse Guards. I may have seen a primary source describing their first appearance in Google Books, I'll try and find that. (Oh, and I don't know where "The Greens" came from; the data there looks like it was added from regiments.org, but the original website doesn't have that nickname.) Choess (talk) 03:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On further review, Chant's book appears to have some errors. Numerous sources attest that the amalgamation of the three original troops into the Horse Grenadier Guards occurred in October 1693, when George Cholmondeley was given the command. Chant says it occurred in 1709, but it appears that 1709 is the date at which the Scots Troop was transferred to the English establishment, and the HGG had to be redesignated 1st Troop to distinguish them from the 2nd (Scots) Troop. One other inconsistency is Chant's dates for the 4th Troop of Grenadiers, which he associates with the Dutch or Earl of Portland's Troop of Horse Guards, on the English establishment 1689-1699. It's hard to reconcile this with the amalgamation of the other three troops in 1693. By contrast, JBM Frederick's "Lineage Book of the British Army" suggests that the 4th Troop of Grenadiers was raised in November 1687 and disbanded in 1689, which would associate them with the Earl of Dover's Troop of Horse Guards. Frederick's lineages seem more plausible than Chant's, so I'm going to use him rather than Chant as a source. Choess (talk) 19:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The dates in this particular section also need clarification:

"However, in 1742, the 3rd and 4th (Scots) Troops of Horse Guards were sent abroad for service in the Seven Years' War, and the 2nd Troop of Horse Grenadier Guards went with them."

If the date of 1742 is correct, then it was not the Seven Years War, but the War of the Austrian Succession, which is in question. If it is correct that the Horse Grenadiers were sent to the Continent with the other British troops to serve in the western theater of the Seven Years War, then the date is in question, and would be 1757 or 1758.

From sources that are admittedly second-hand (Osprey's "Men-at-Arms" series, "King George's Army (3)" and "Frederick the Great's Allies"), it appears that no horse grenadiers, whether from the Horse Grenadier Guards, or from any of the dragoon regiments, were used in the Seven Years War. So I suspect that the year is correct, and the reference should be to the War of the Austrian Succession. TheBaron0530 (talk)theBaron0530 26August2011 —Preceding undated comment added 16:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC).[reply]