Talk:Horace Mann

Time for a protection

This page is literally being monitored and followed by vandals. Nine vandal editions in just seven days (from March 17) and this is just an addition to a large file of previous attacks. Isn't it time for a protection? --Filius Rosadis 16:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that this page has been subject to much vandalism. However, Wikipedia:Protection Policy seems to indicate that protection is used very sparingly, and mostly for either high-profile pages or pages subject to heavy or coordinated attacks. I've seen plenty other higher-profile, more highly-vandalised pages that are still unprotected. I think we should just keep this page on our watchlists and revert as needed. We can handle 1 or 2 reverts a day. You take 1, I'll take the other :) AbsolutDan 05:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Image added

Found a very cool old daguerreotype of Mann in the LOC collection - handsome politician by Mass. standards. ;-) Matthew Brady studio portrait.--BradPatrick 14:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Reverted edits of banned user

Reverted edits of banned user Amorrow with sock puppets IP 71 addresses. FloNight ^talk 05:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

References to Other Perspectives of Horace Mann

This article seems to be primarily based upon turn of the 20th century opinions about Horace Mann that present him as the creator and "savior" of standard American Educational System. I am new to wikipedia and don't yet feel qualified to manage a full rewrite of an article, but I have found conflicting opinions from several sources that hold that he is one of a number of educational proponents that ushered in a ridged and systematic set of rules for pedagogy that have resulted in a substantial disdain and disinterest for learning by students and resulted in killing the literacy level in the U.S.

See Beyond Culture by the cultural anthropologist, Edward T. Hall (1976-Doubleday) chapter 13 and back notes where he says:

"Implicit in the U.S. educational pattern are large rewards to the highly articulate and those who can work with figures - little else pays off. Consequently students are left stranded overworked, or eliminated by the system not because they don't have brains and talent, but because their particular skills don fit this system - a system, incidentally, that was modeled after the Prussian Army by Horace Mann, first commissioner of education in Massachusetts. The system badly needs updating."

For further consideration, reference: [1]

Also reference: [2]

If this seems appropriate, should these other opinions be added to provide readers with a broader perspective?

--KeithFail 08:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I second this observation. The article *still* reads like a hagiography. But the legacy of these approaches to public education (which have been followed to a tremendous degree) have had *both* very positive -- and very negative consequences. Very positive for neglected children, immigrants, etc., and very negative for children whose capable parents and communities would have otherwise been taking more highly engaged personal responsibility; rather than now unthinkingly taking it for granted that abdicating personal responsibility to educate children to the best of their ability should be dumped on the state at the lowest possible price -- onto overburdened teachers who spend more of their time doing low-budget daycare & crowd control than they do actually teaching useful skills. Mann's approach has led to epidemically disengaged families and furtively cost-optimizing incentives. There is a lot of discussion and writing on these outcomes, but so far this article makes it sounds like Mann's tragedy of the commons approach was simply heroic in its results. The majority of families who demonstrably care more about cheap convenient daycare than about excellent education drag down the quality even for families who would have been willing to volunteer more and pay more if they had stayed more engaged and aware, rather than being encouraged to stand aside and leave education to state functionaries. A more balanced discussion of the legacy is needed. DKEdwards (talk) 18:39, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

NPOV

I have added an NPOV tag because I think some of the comments in that paragraph are inappropriate or just untrue; I think it would be hard to prove that Everett or Mann were trying to construct a system that would produce barely educated factory workers. I think you could talk about how they were concerned about Americanizing the incoming immigrants; I think that would be valid. On the whole, though, I think most historians of education would view Mann's work as important in professionalizing and improving what had been a poorly funded and poorly regarded public education system. (Not that I would necessarily disagree with User:KeithFail above; what was an improvement in the 19th century is not necessarily so great today!) Brianyoumans 01:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm being bold and removing what seem to be clear WP:NPOV violations in the Educationist Work section. --Zippy 07:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

lost

Note: the following discussion originated at Talk:Lydia Sigourney; inasmuch as someone more interested in Mann than in Sigourney may be able to answer the question, mkoyle copied it here.

I have seen the quotation

Lost, yesterday, somewhere between sunrise and sunset, two golden hours, each set with sixty diamond minutes. No reward is offered, for they are gone forever!

attributed to Lydia Sigourney and Horace Mann on the web. Does anyone have a solid source? --Slashme 08:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I just spent a good while trying to find this anywhere; the standard quote books attribute it to Horace Mann, but do not indicate where it was published (which is a bit unusual) (This applies to both the 2002 The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations and the 1968 Familiar Quotations by John Bartlett as well as the 2002 Bartlett’s Familiar Quotations). I am working on this still. If someone does know the original source, please post ;) --Matthew K 00:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Abolitionist?

The article lead says that Mann was a prominent abolitionist, but this isn't discussed anywhere else in the article.

Dialectric (talk) 13:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Most of this article is pathetically unsourced. Maybe your fact tags will spur people into action. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Needs Bibliography

The references section needs a bibliography section to elucidate the references... Stevenmitchell (talk) 17:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

it now has one.Rjensen (talk) 06:39, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Taylor, Bob Pepperman

I have twice cut down part of the Bob Pepperman Taylor listing under "Further reading", specifically the line: "192 pages. Argues that Mann's view of civic education marginalized the role of schools in training the intellect; links him to anti-intellectualism in American education." It was restored with the reasoning (in edit summary) of: "keep annotation (from the publisher) --content is not otherwise clear". It seems to me that the content is as clear as all the other listings under "Further reading". Few other articles include any additional information on "Further reading" beyond the standard author, title, publisher, etc. Adding more will highlight the listing more than the others, and implies a bias or recommendation, which we must avoid in Wiki-land. The content is clear: the title of the book includes Horace Mann's name. If it is restored, I must insist that all other listings under "Further reading" offer similar commentary on the specific content. --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Source problem

The current line under "Legacy" that says "most historians..." etc. is problematic. The four sources provided likely indicate how each of those sources views Mann. However, that does not necessarily mean that "most historians" assess Mann that way. If one of those sources makes the conclusion that "most historians" view Mann a certain way, I'd recommend quoting that source and citing it. Otherwise, this is a violation of original research to say that four sources indicate "most historians." --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

That's what many of RS say. for example, "Historians of education credit him with the common schools, and for interpreting and popularizing these ideas in his writings and lectures." [Downs, Horace Mann: champion of public schools]; "Horace Mann has been given a great deal of the credit for the establishment of public schools. ... Labeled by many historians as the “father of the common schools” or even the “father of the public schools,”" [Hayes, No Child Left Behind: past, present, and future"" (2008) p4. Besides Massachusetts, too: "[Michigan] Historians have stressed the work of Horace Mann" says Michigan: a history of the Wolverine State by Dunbar and May (1995); "Mann, aptly named by many educational historians as the “Father of the Common School Movement" says 21st century education: a reference handbook (2008) by Thomas L. Good p 267. In fact, no historian I have seen rejects or denies that claim. Rjensen (talk) 16:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. But you're still over-sourcing here. Again, I recommend quoting in the article, and not overdoing it with sources. --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Prison reform

I think we need to also add that Mann was a supporter of asylum reform in New England in the first half of the 19th century. In the 1840s, he helped Dorothea Dix and Samuel G. Howe get legislation passed to develop adequate asylums for mental patients who were being grossly abused in federal prisons, workhouses, and almshouses. <Enduring Vision US History textbook>

--2602:30A:2C14:5C70:A1CB:3447:7000:4972 (talk) 02:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)Anonymous

No Critical Section at all

The article reads more like propaganda than a balanced account - there is no Critical Section at all. For example illiteracy in Massachusetts was actually LOWER before Horace Mann was appointed than it is now, after more than a century and half of his system. The article assumes that government education is automatically correct (no dissenting opinions are really covered) and that parents and voluntary associations (religious and secular) are automatically inferior to government schools. If the government system was so good why did not Mr Mann send his own children to a government school? He educated his children at home, i.e. he Home Schooled them, even though Mr Mann was not a "trained and qualified teacher". Also the sinister project of making children "good citizens" (i.e. shaping their political opinions and attitudes) is treated as also automatically good.2A02:C7D:B5E6:6400:65EE:D8E7:7C4D:5690 (talk) 12:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Why not allow a Critical Section - rather than just writing an article that just assumes that the project of Horace Mann (his project to make government dominant in education) was a good thing. If there was a Critical Section for dissent people might not feel the need to "vandalise", i.e. edit, the article.2A02:C7D:B5E6:6400:65EE:D8E7:7C4D:5690 (talk) 12:47, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Factory Model

Removed the final sentence referencing the "factory model" as it's a modern term and does not accurately reflect Mann's plan for schools. Given the term's contemporary useage, its inclusion in a biographical section on Mann violates the NPOV policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EdHistory101 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-Protected Edit Request

I'd like to add this image under College and University Buildings File:Horace Mann Hall, Pittsburg State University, Pittsburg, Kansas.jpg

 Done ––FormalDude talk 16:02, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

For those angry ones

HE DIDN'T INVENTED SCHOL, HE JUST MODERNIZED IT 181.71.66.100 (talk) 19:18, 7 February 2022 (UTC) IT SAYS Horace Mann CREATED/INVENTED SCHOOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ichoseu (talk • contribs) 15:14, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

San Antonio school

To some editor,

Please add the: Young Woman's Leadership Academy at Horace Mann Junior High School in San Antonio, TX.

Tried to include a photo of the front of the building, but couldn't figure it out. Check the street view of 2123 W Huisache Ave. San Antonio, TX if you want to see for yourself.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. 2600:1700:E0:1FB0:1119:FB5C:7395:CAC2 (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)