Talk:Homosexuality in ancient Egypt

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Merge

I don't think merging would be a good idea. Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep's alleged homosexuality isn't the only LGBT-related thing in ancient Egypt, there was the story of Horus and Seth, and the one about Pharaoh Neferkare and a general. – Alensha ^talk 01:22, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Horus and Seth

I think that a mention of the contending of Horus and Seth would be good. The story tells of a sexual encounter between the two gods.

There is also a story about a Pharoah Neferkare and his General Sasenet who have a romantic affair. These are both stories that appear in literature not as historical record though.

But I think that they are still relevant to the article. --82.35.114.51 (talk) 23:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but who wrote this section? " Seth invites Horus to a party and convinces the teenage Horus to drink more than Horus could normally cope with. When Horus is drunk, Seth seduces him to sleep over the night in one bed together. When lying together in one bed, Seth grabs Horus and rapes him." Someone still at school and trying to sound grown up maybe?

Too much street talk, it needs to be edited.

Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep's Relationship

They're identical twins, or at least, that is what they are notable for. Evidence:

"Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep, of the Fifth Dynasty, shared an impressive tomb at Saqqara. On its' walls they are represented holding hands and even embracing - which is generally only seen in couples - expressing their close relationship. Niankhkhnum as the eldest twin is accorded a slight superiority in his position in the scenes. They occupied the same post, that of the manicurist to the king, which means that they belongeg to the inner court circles. Moreover, they were administrators of the royal properties, which explains that wealth of their burial" from 'growing up and getting old in ancient egypt' by Rosalind M. and Jac. J. Janseen, London 2007. Page 10.

To say that the representation of them in the tomb is definitive proof of their homosexuality seems unfounded.Heilingetorix (talk) 13:29, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

This is not evidence, but rather, one of a number of scholars too shocked by the idea of same-sex relations: a secondary account.

But it has been argued, and i think shown not to be plausible by other (and later) scholars. In addition, if one is noticeably older than the other they aren't identical twins :) (but might be half-brothers from different mothers). Barefootliam (talk) 01:44, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

So I added some stuff

I took away the stuff about N&K being the FIRST homosexual couple in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD because that seems like a relatively strong conclusion to draw on small evidence, and combined with the picture it makes the article seem very centered on this one relationship. I also changed the header so it says 'Historical Examples' or something similar. I revised and expanded the Seth and Horus anecdote - it was confusing, and also, it is a satire, not mainstream cosmology like it said.

Images: I have a picture of a ramesside ostraca of two guys having sex, which I thought might be good for this. I photographed it out of Wit & Humor in Ancient Egypt. I don't know if it suits the copyright policy, but it seems relevant, can anyone advise me on this matter?Heilingetorix (talk) 17:57, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Do you we know for sure they were identical twins? Not saying they aren't, I was wondering if their is consensus on that? 206.53.234.10 (talk) 22:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

"Sexually orientated"

There's a particular passage in this article that uses this phrase, and I cannot parse it due to lack of background knowledge. This passage could mean that surviving Egyptian documents use euphemisms to discuss any mention of sex, or, alternatively, that there are Egyptian documents that use direct language to describe sex, none of which discuss men having sex with men. It's also just a nasty bit of writing that I'd really like to replace with something better, which I cannot do until I understand it. --Blah2 (talk) 12:56, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Wasn't homosexuality banned according to The Laws of The Egyptian Goddess Ma'at?

In number 11 of The 42 Negative Confessions (from The Papyrus of Ani), it is written: "I have not committed adultery, I have not lain with men."

The papyrus was said to be written sometime during 1250 BCE. Smilelaughenjoy (talk) 03:09, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Although that text appeared in the 1901 translation, i think we have to remember it's part of a speech by Nu, and is not a general prohibition - and also that it doesn't seem to appear in all surviving papyri. Given the context, though, it could presumably mean, "I have not had sex with someone who was married, neither a man nor a woman". There's also the fact that the papyrus is a thousand years newer than the tomb of the two men.... and has no more bearing than a modern law could be interpreted as normative in Anglo-Saxon times. By the time we get to 1200 BCE, Egyptian attitudes had changed from the Set/Horus story and widespread acceptance to the idea that it was humiliating to be the recipient of anal intercourse, through to phrases that were insults around homosexuality. It's been suggested that this came about because the Egyptians had contact with a wider range of other cultures, but i blame Moses :) Barefootliam (talk) 01:41, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Needs major editing

This entire article is awash with errors of grammar, punctuation, and syntax. It reads like a high-schooler's book report. It needs a total overhaul by a competent writer. DesertSkies120 (talk) 04:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Spell 115 seems to describe a high priestess of Heliopolis who is a transgender woman.

Spell 115 SPELL FOR ASCENDING TO THE SKY, OPENING UP THE TOMB, AND KNOWING THE SOULS OF HELIOPOLIS.

I have spent yesterday among the great ones, I have become Khepri, I have cleared the vision of the Sole Eye, I have opened up the circle of darkness. I am one of them, I know the Souls of Heliopolis, into which the high-priest of Heliopolis was not initiated through revelation; (I know) the hostile acts by Him who would destroy the heirs of Heliopolis; I know why a braided lock is made for a man.

Re disputed with the serpent " Him who is in his burning,' and his mouth was injured, and that is how the reduction in the month came about. He said to the serpent: "I will take my harpoon, which men will inherit,' and that is how the harpoon came into being. The serpent said : " The Two Sisters will come into being,' and that is how Re's passing by came into being.

It so happened that He of the red cloth heard, and his arm was not stopped. He transformed himself into a woman with braided hair, and that is how the priest of Heliopolis with braided hair came into being. It so happened that the mighty one was stripped in the temple, and that is how the stripped one of Heliopolis came into being. It so happened that the heritage of the heir came into being, and great will be he who shall see it; he will become high-priest of Heliopolis.

I know the Souls of Heliopolis; they are Re, Shu and Tefnut. 24.61.22.126 (talk) 07:11, 26 September 2024 (UTC)