Jump to content

Talk:Holocaust victims/Archive 2

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2

Definition and scope

Holocaust victims were people targeted by the government of Nazi Germany based on their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, and/or sexual orientation.

I find this definition weird. The Holocaust is about the extermination of the Jews. You better find really good sources that define the term "Holocaust victims" (I see none in article). Otherwise the article title must be Victims of Nazi crimes. - Altenmann >talk 21:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

You are correct that this is not the correct definition. In fact, it's quite wrong insofar as it includes "political beliefs."
The article as currently written is essentially a WP:POVFORK of The Holocaust - it lists different groups of Nazi victims and says what happened to them, and it's a POVFORK because it describes (in Wikivoice) all the victim groups as victims of the Holocaust, when WP:RSes do not describe them in that way. The worst example is the table at the top of the article.
What this article could be is a historiography article that explains the ongoing scholarly debate regarding Who are the victims of the Holocaust? This debate breaks down into three basic groups:
Alternatively, I'd be fine with moving this to Victims of Nazi crimes rather than having it be a historiography article. I guess until we figure this out, I've added the {{disputed}} tag to the article and linked it here. Levivich (talk) 23:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I think it is pretty clear that the article scope doesn’t reflect the academic consensus, which is either for Jews only, or Jews and Romani/Sinti. The inclusion of others constitutes a minority view, but I don’t think that we should be reflecting that minority view when determining scope for articles about the Holocaust. It should be mentioned, but excluded from the scope. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:25, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Consider that research in the past on this topic was limited in scope, however today we have much better picture of Nazi genocides. 220.107.189.119 (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Waitman Wade Beorn should be removed from your list of those embracing traditionalist viewpoints, as he offers the exact opposite view in a tweet and has no idea where you got the notion that he supports the idea that the Holocaust only refers to the murder of Jews. Barefootwriter (talk) 19:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
This comment appears to be referring to this tweet specifically, in which Beorn writes I don't recall expressing that viewpoint in reply to Levivich's comment. However, Beorn writes this on page 4 of The Holocaust in Eastern Europe (2018):

I will use the term "Holocaust" to refer mainly to the Nazi attempt to murder the Jews of Europe; however, I will also use the more inclusive term "Nazi genocidal project" to capture the larger murderous vision of which the Jews were such a large part. This includes Sinti/Roma (gypsies), the handicapped, political "enemies," Soviet prisoners of war, and—particularly in the East—entire ethnic groups such as the Slavs. One cannot understand the Holocaust in Eastern Europe without placing it in the context of this larger Nazi genocidal project that foresaw murder and demographic engineering on a colossal scale.

So I'm not sure that Beorn's comment is totally accurate. Malerisch (talk) 06:31, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Yup, that's where I got the notion. Levivich (talk) 12:59, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the paragraph that comes before that. This is seems like a disingeuous use of a paragraph setting conventions (that seem designed to sidestep critique from traditionalists) to paint his views as other than they actually are.

Already, we can see subtle differences in definition. In popular usage, the term has often come to be interpreted more broadly, including non-Jewish victims as well. Indeed, when US president Jimmy Carter established the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, he referred to “eleven million innocent victims exterminated,” including some five million non-Jewish victims. More expansive definitions led some to turn to the Hebrew word for “catastrophe”: Shoah. This term clearly limits its coverage of Nazi crimes to those committed against Jews. Steven T. Katz represents the most extreme version of this, contending “that the Jews alone were targeted for genocide, or total physical annihilation.” I will, however, avoid such a narrow use of the term. Not only is it historically imprecise, but it also implies a sense of “competitive suffering” that is simply unhelpful.

Barefootwriter (talk) 16:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
So... he says in his 2018 book that he's not using the term "Shoah," instead he's using "Holocaust" to refer "mainly" to the Nazi murder of Jews and "Nazi genocidal project" to refer to other victims of Nazis. And he's said the same thing in works other than the 2018 book (see below). Maybe his views have changed since 2020?

Btw when Beorn asked you on Twitter what the citation was, you replied "'making shit up' I guess? lol." so I'd appreciate it if you told him what the actual citations are (Beorn 2014 p. 4, Beorn 2018 p. 4, Beorn 2020 p. 98 n. 1) cuz I am not making shit up. Levivich (talk) 18:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

For the record, Beorn also repeats this view on page 4 of Marching into Darkness (2014), so the 2018 book wasn't a one-off:

I define the term "Nazi genocidal project" as a much larger Nazi nexus of racial and demographic decimation, extermination, and resettlement, while I understand the Holocaust to be largely the murder of Jews by the regime.

...

I will, therefore, attempt to be as clear as possible in delineating the Wehrmacht's role in the Holocaust (the murder of the Jews of Europe) as well as in the Nazi genocidal project (the murder of Soviet POWs, killings of civilian noncombatants, participation in starvation policy, etc.).

And Beorn also makes the same point on page 92 (Note 1) of Understanding and Teaching the Holocaust (2020). Malerisch (talk) 14:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
No it wasn't. The historical record does not bear out that Jewish people were the sole victims of the holocaust. Other ethnic minorities, homosexuals, the handicapped, etc. were all rolled in and put in the same camps. Many of us have studied this subject for decades. A massive argument on who gets to have the Holocaust all to themselves and discount the identical suffering of millions of other people seems in very bad taste. 146.115.242.10 (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Suffering has nothing to do with the definition, all the more "the discount". Anyway, wikipedia is not a forum. In article talk pages we discuss article content, and the discussions must be based on references to reliable sources. - Altenmann >talk 16:16, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Yes, many of us have studied this subject for decades. Did I miss any major 21st-century Holocaust scholars in my list above? Please tell me if so. Levivich (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
Seems pretty comprehensive. Christopher Browning? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:49, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Oh man how did I forget Christopher Browning! Thanks for that. Happen to have a quote in my notes from another scholar talking about Browning's views on this:

Rather than one big thing, the Holocaust might now be described as an array of event categories. In Christopher Browning’s terms, the Holocaust involved three separate “clusters of genocidal projects”: euthanasia and “racial purification” directed against the disabled and Sinti and Roma (at the time referred to collectively as “Gypsies”) within the Third Reich; the eradication of Slavic populations living in countries east of Germany; and the Final Solution proper—that is, the attempted mass murder of every Jew residing anywhere within Germany’s sphere of influence (Browning 2010, 407). (The list of persecuted categories—people targeted by the Nazis in ways short of genocide—would of course be longer.) Pulling apart the many threads of the Holocaust allows scholars to understand the origins and evolution of policy and practice in ways that thinking of it as a single happening does not.
— Charles King, "Can—or Should—There Be a Political Science of the Holocaust?", in Jeffrey Kopstein, et al., eds., Politics, Violence, Memory: The New Social Science of the Holocaust, Cornell University Press (2023)

So I would categorize Chris Browning as "Jews, Roma/Sinti, disabled, Slavs". Levivich (talk) 16:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I'm also missing Omer Bartov and Marion Kaplan, both of whom I'd put in the "unclear" category simply because I don't have any notes on them (they may have expressed an opinion on this, I just don't know it). Levivich (talk) 16:46, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Also Raul Hilberg and Martin Gilbert. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Gilbert I'd categorize as "Jews-only"; Hilberg I don't know. Levivich (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Add: this book by Bashir Bashir and Amos Goldberg: The Holocaust is an extreme genocide in which five and a half to six million Jews were murdered by the Germans and by others during World War II in harsh persecutions, shootings, and gas chambers (during the same period many millions of people from other targeted communities and ethnic groups, such as Roma and Sinti, Poles, homosexuals, communists, Soviet prisoners of war, political dissidents, and the disabled, were also exterminated). Levivich (talk) 03:47, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Just looked and there are 219 currently in Category:Historians of the Holocaust, and I think about 119 of them are 21st-century [1]. Levivich (talk) 05:48, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Mss83 (talk) 03:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Good sources that define the term "Holocaust victims" will never be found as the definition of the term Holocaust (in itself both a variable and singular noun) is still contentious. Paul Mojzes in his book Balkan Genocides: Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing in the Twentieth Century discusses this dilemma quite well. Extermination camps across occupied Europe were not segregated and victims of all religious denominations and races were exterminated in them. Having two separate articles Holocaust for Jews and Victims of Nazi crimes for others, separates victims into different categories and enters a dangerous territory as it could be perceived as marginalizing non-Jews. It has been 77 years since the end of World War Two and if scholars are still debating the term, then I am sure a consensus will not be made any time soon and as such, we should leave it as is. ElderZamzam (talk) 03:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
It's probably my tendency to lump things, but I tend to agree with this comment that we should have an article about "Victims of persecution(/democide/whatever better word) by Nazi Germany and collaborators", without distinction. Artoria2e5 🌉 06:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
This article needs to be rewritten completely or renamed. The Holocaust article clearly gives the definition of the Holocaust to be the destruction of European Jews, yet this gives a contradictory description that the Holocaust includes all of the other groups as well. I believe Victims of Nazi Germany would be a better title, and a clarification that 6,000,000 Holocaust victims are included in the 11,000,000 death count. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 04:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Jewish people are not the only victim of the nazi regime. Many died from the Nazis in concentration camps,but when Russia was invaded a policy of starvation was implemented because sending Russians to camps wasn't as efficient as starving them. This hunger plan was implemented during the invasion of Russia which killed millions of civilians. Zionists employed the same hunger plan tactics in Israel and cut off food water and electricity to Gaza in 2023 it is a highly effective way to eliminate large populations. Despite the UNs explicitly saying food and water should be allowed into Gaza Israel implemented an unnecessarily complex sprocess for aid to enter Gaza refusing entry to all but a few aid lorries, this led to widespread malnutrition before Israel continued it's racist elimination of Palestinian. 2A04:204:2644:600:8AED:2E52:EB8A:1A85 (talk) 10:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

True number of Slav ww2 victims

Holocaust monopolised by Jewish lobby. Misrepresentation of Slav victims of ww2. Number of Slav victims diminished and Jewish numbers inflated for political reasons/interests. 61.69.130.129 (talk) 02:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Evidence? The Banner talk 10:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Estimates of victims table

Should the category "Soviet civilians" be labeled "Soviet non-Jewish citizens?" No political angle here - I just think it's important that it be clear that some of the 6 million Jewish people murdered were Soviets. Perhaps there is a better way to make this distinction. 45.26.61.142 (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

They are already sorted under Gentiles. The Banner talk 22:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Citation for 5.7 million Soviet civilans figure does not list that figure?

In the table "Classes of Holocaust victims", the entry "Soviet civilians" gives a figure of "5.7 million (excl. 1.3 million Jews)" citing https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution. But that page (as of 13 October, eg. http://web.archive.org/web/20231010071124/https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution) does not seem to give that figure, or any figure, for a number of Soviet civilians. (It does list 3.3 million Soviet POWs.) Can the citation be fixed, or another one found? If no citation can be found, should the figure be removed? Daekharel (talk) 13:32, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Please refer to this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1071011/holocaust-nazi-persecution-victims-wwii/
It is clearly where the numbers came from, and prior to the edits by User:Tpbradbury on 25 October 2023 what the consensus on the page reflected. Claiming only 4.5 million non-Jewish Soviet civilians died is Holocaust denial, and erasing any mention of the fact that 1.3 million of the 6 million Jews were Soviet citizens is historical revisionism. The figures need to be corrected and the source added as soon as possible. I would make the necessary changes myself but I do not have 500 edits. Patriotparty1776 (talk) 09:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
statisa.com isn't a reliable source wp:rsp: "Statista...should not be cited directly. It may be useful as a research tool to find sources..." Please provide a reliable source, Tom B (talk) 11:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
https://web.archive.org/web/20201130211526/https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution
This is the source that Statista cites, as of December 2020, when the data was compiled. There has obviously been changes to the page since then, resulting in the discrepancy which started this thread. It clearly states "Soviet civilians | around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)." Please update the page with the information and source provided. Patriotparty1776 (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

non-arbitrary break

Seems to me that the above discussion boils down to two distinct questions:

Have I accurately summarized the discussion so far? Should we vote on A/B/C and 1-7 to see if we have consensus, and possibly ping participants? Levivich (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 1: B. But not in two articles but in three: Jews, non-Jews (European focused) and the victims by Japan and allies/collaborators. Japan was an Axis power too. The Banner talk 19:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
  • (C) & (6)
Question 1: (C) there is already an article on the Holocaust, another separate article about Jewish victims would be duplicating that;
Question 2: (6) "Victims of Nazi persecution" is most concise and precise (i.e. excludes victims of Nazi-fomented wars, and includes all victims of Nazi state policy). Walrasiad (talk) 03:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
C & Opfer der NS-Vernichtungspolitik
I recommend keeping this article, it's an eye-opener.* As for the title, it would be quite straightforward if in German: Opfer der NS-Vernichtungspolitik – escaping the confusion of how the Holocaust should be defined. I'm not able myself though to translate it concisely. Opfer der = victims of (or Opfergruppen, victim groups). NS = Nazi Germany, the entire killing machine, including collaborators under its command. Vernichtungspolitik = policy of annihilation, genocide; a total war against targeted civilian populations.
A quick, qualified estimate of the stats presented here, and in related articles, gives that 94% of all civilian victims of the Nazi terror came from areas east of Germany, and that 92% of all Jewish victims lived in Eastern Europe. 35% of the victims in Eastern Europe were Jewish, 65% were non-Jewish. Basecam (talk) 09:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Holocaust_victims/Archive_2&oldid=1251532518"