Talk:Hokkaido

Aynu Mosir

These comments are in reply to this section in the archives. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:14, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

(Sorry, I do not know how far to indent here in this section) I added "Ainu Mosir" in the header and intro with the very clear distinction that it does not refer to simply Hokkaido but, rather, to the entire Ainu Country. There is a footnote in the infobox connected to the three instances of "Aynumosir"/etc. directing people to the Etymology section. I firmly believe the Ainu-itak name should be present up front because it is their homeland even if their naming convention does not match with the Japanese and Russian nation-state delineations. I also believe that we can clearly and cleanly explain the distinction between Hokkaido the island and Ainu Mosir the homeland (of which Hokkaido is the largest region), which I think I have done 206.125.79.123 (talk) 20:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Just a quick additional note: The fact that Hokkaido is just one part of Ainu Country and that Ainumosir does not equal Hokkaido is why "Ainu Mosir" is not bolded. Whereas equivalent names would have been bolded, this remains italicised. There should, however, be a proper Ainu Mosir page (disambiguated and not only of a movie), though 206.125.79.123 (talk) 20:17, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@206.125.79.123: Do not unarchive comments that have been archived just so you can reply to one section that was last commented on nearly 8 years ago. Instead, post a link to the archived section (as I did above for you). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:14, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

As someone whom studies Ainu, Ainu Mosir just means the Universe, the Ainu word for Hokkaido that Ainu speakers have told me personally is "Yaunmosir" ヤウンモシㇼ in kana, which means "Floating Land", hope this helps :) 86.30.52.72 (talk) 17:34, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Population statistics

If someone wants to update the population statistics, here is the Hokkaido prefecture site with updated statistics (though they are based on juminhyo so they are estimates):

[1]

Pinging AridCeption

Cheers, Fredlesaltique (talk) 01:10, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Put Cities, Towns Tables on Separate Page

Can we put the cities, town tables on a separate page? Because it takes up too much vertical space imo. -Artanisen (talk) 11:53, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree, currently it takes up >1/4 of the page, and I think it detracts from the article. I think it's a nicely done table though, and we should keep it. The other page, list of cities in Hokkaido, doesn't have the flags or location map, but more population info. Consider taking the best of each table? Aperture LENS (talk) 19:51, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Ainu Placenames for Hokkaido?

Like in the Chukotka Autonomous Okrug and places like Huanren Manchu Autonomous County I believe we should include Native names to all regions whether they are recognised or not by the central government, you might say:

"Hardly anyone speaks Ainu, why put in the effort?"

1. We have no problem adding place names to areas in other countries with low numbers of speakers, why should we draw the line at ainu? it has nothing to do with native speaker numbers? for example the Manchu Autonomous Counties
2. With every language lost we lose 1000 years of history! how many people here can say that they fluently speak Sumerian or Akkadian? there are books that teach you these obscure languages, however it will never be the same as how the original people had it!
3. Wikipedia is an Encyclopaedia, things like Ainu Place names should be recorded before its too late

"Ainu isn't recognised by the Japanese government" And? I can give a list of places where the Federal government doesn't recognise said languages and yet we still transcribe their native names!

1. Brittany
2. Chukotka Autonomous Okrug
3. Huanren Manchu Autonomous County
4. Benxi Manchu Autonomous County
5. Oklahoma
6. Anadyr (town)
7. Truro
8. Cornwall
9. Nunavut

In my humble opinion I believe we should not draw the line for any language that is indigenous 86.30.52.72 (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Your suggesting is like including the ancient Celtic names for British places on the Great Britain page or the United States page with Native American names. Ainu place names have not been used for centuries or more nor officially recognized. Most people, including Japanese in Hokkaido, don't know those names. This would be more appropriate on the Ainu people page. You could make a map of Hokkaido with Ainu place names and put it on the Ainu page. The Ainu language and few remaining ethnic Ainu are moribund. -Artanisen (talk) 12:33, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The difference is this is not comparable, this is argumentum ad absurdum, there is a movement to revive Ainu for one, and even then the ainu people still exist. and aslong as ainu people exist there will be interest in it. Gorgonopsi (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It is arrogant to assume that everyone names geographical features the same way as Westerners do. We have seen an influx of this kind of social justice warrior. They are characterized by a poor understanding of the situation. They are unaware that they are imposing their own biased view on the peoples they supposedly help.

An essay by Kojima Kyōko gives a sense of what Ainu language "toponyms" look like.[2] The so-called Ainu toponyms are so descriptive that one would wonder if they are really proper names. Kojima provides an explanation as to why this happened: it is because Japanese geographers recorded (and thereby fossilized) Ainu "toponyms" by asking Ainu informants, with the assumption that every geographical feature must have a proper name. She even points to a possibility that many of these "toponyms" were invented on the fly by Ainu informants. In other words, what we see today are Japanese toponyms of Ainu language origin. They are by no means identical with what we imagine as toponyms of the Ainu people.

Now let's move on to large geographical entities. I replaced the following text fragment with mine, citing sources written by Ainu language experts.

in the [[Ainu language]] "Yaun Mosir" (ヤウンモシㇼ in Kana)<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://sarweb.org/the-fabric-of-indigeneity/|title=The Fabric of Indigeneity | School for Advanced Research|access-date=2022-03-04|archive-date=2022-03-04|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220304190848/https://sarweb.org/the-fabric-of-indigeneity/|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=https://subslikescript.com/movie/Eien_no_nishipa__Hokkaido_to_naduketa_otoko_Matuura_Takeshirou_-11379092 |title=Eien no nishipa ~ Hokkaido to naduketa otoko Matuura Takeshirou ~ (2019) Movie Script |publisher=Subs like Script |date= |accessdate=2022-03-08 |archive-date=2022-03-04 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220304190757/https://subslikescript.com/movie/Eien_no_nishipa__Hokkaido_to_naduketa_otoko_Matuura_Takeshirou_-11379092 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |author=česky |url=https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA527622141&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=10905251&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon%7E809739f8 |title=The Fabric of Indigeneity: Ainu Identity, Gender, and Settler Colonialism in Japan - Document - Gale Academic OneFile |publisher=Go.gale.com |date= |accessdate=2022-03-08 |archive-date=2022-03-05 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220305114241/https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA527622141&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=10905251&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon~809739f8 |url-status=live }}</ref> is the word for the island of Hokkaidō. the Ainu people also have a name for all of their domain, which included Hokkaidō along with the Kuril Islands, Sakhalin, and parts of northern Honshu, which was ''Aynu Mosir'' ({{lang|ain|[[:wikt:アィヌモシㇼ|アィヌ・モシ<small>リ</small>]]}}), a name taken by the modern Ainu to refer to their traditional homeland.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.nannifontana.net/work.php?number=73 |title=Ainu Mosir. The land of human beings – Nanni Fontana – photographer |publisher=Nanni Fontana |access-date=2012-09-14 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120411023555/http://www.nannifontana.net/work.php?number=73 |archive-date=2012-04-11 }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |author=July.04.2008 |url=http://web.icu.ac.jp/www2/en/20080704.html |title=ICU Students Support Indigenous Peoples Summit in Ainu Mosir 2008 "ICU BackNumbersite |publisher=Web.icu.ac.jp |date=2008-07-04 |access-date=2012-09-14 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20130624153109/http://web.icu.ac.jp/www2/en/20080704.html |archive-date=2013-06-24 }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.win-ainu.com/ainumosir2008/en/news.html |title=Indigenous Peoples Summit in Ainu Mosir 2008 * News |publisher=Win-ainu.com |access-date=2012-09-14 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131107212007/http://www.win-ainu.com/ainumosir2008/en/news.html |archive-date=2013-11-07 |url-status=dead }}</ref><ref>{{cite journal|url=http://www.japanfocus.org/-ann_elise-lewallen/2971|title=Indigenous at last! Ainu Grassroots Organizing and the Indigenous Peoples Summit in Ainu Mosir|last=Lewallen|first=Ann-Elise|journal=[[The Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus]]|volume=48-6-08|date=November 30, 2008|access-date=September 14, 2012|archive-date=August 19, 2012|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120819222627/http://www.japanfocus.org/-ann_elise-lewallen/2971|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Okada |first1=Mitsuharu Vincent |year=2012 |title=The Plight of Ainu, Indigenous People of Japan |journal=Journal of Indigenous Social Development |volume=1 |issue=1 |pages=1–14 |publisher=[[University of Hawaii]] |url=http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/21976/v1i1_02okada.pdf |access-date=September 14, 2012 |archive-date=March 18, 2014 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140318173617/http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/21976/v1i1_02okada.pdf |url-status=live }}</ref> "Ainu Mosir" literally translates as "The Land Where People (the Ainu) Live", and it was traditionally used to be contrasted with ''Kamuy Mosir'', "The Land of the [[Kamuy]] (spirits)".<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.minpaku.ac.jp/english/museum/exhibition/main/aynu/11|title=National Museum of Ethnology, Japan: Permanent Exhibitions|access-date=2011-08-26|archive-date=2019-04-11|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190411160053/http://www.minpaku.ac.jp/english/museum/exhibition/main/aynu/11|url-status=dead}}</ref>

• No source gives an in-depth explanation of Ainu phrases in question. They are just instances of how activists use terms of Ainu language origin.
• After all, you must acknowledge the plain fact that the Ainu had no proper name for the large geographical entity.

--Nanshu (talk) 08:26, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Sources for future article expansion

There is a ridiculously involved and well-done entry on Hokkaido under its former name Yeso here

• De Saint-Martin, Vivien; et al., eds. (1895), "Yèso", Nouveau Dictionnaire de Ge/ographie Universelle (in French), vol. 7, Paris: Librairie Hachette & Co., pp. 441–445.

that could probably helpfully expand history and historical data here and at related pages like History of Hokkaido, Economy of Hokkaido, &c. It is in French but machine translation is getting better and easier all the time. — LlywelynII 06:34, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:LEADCITE

In other news, the list of names is still in the wrong place. That's why we built a name section in the first place; we probably only need Ezo in the lead since the others are variants of the same basic idea. It's also still incomplete, missing other variants like Jesso, Iesso, Iezo, Ieco, Yedeo, Esso, Ieso-Gasima, Iesse, &c. as already noted in the archives here. — LlywelynII 06:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

NPOV language

I changed the wording of the lead article because the wording seems to be pushing a certain viewpoint of a contributor, therefore undermining the neutrality of the article.

However, it was reverted again.

In 1869, following the Meiji Restoration, Ezo, which means "the land of the barbarians" in Japanese,[5] was annexed by Japan under on-going colonial practices, and renamed Hokkaido.[6] After this event, Japanese settlers started to colonize the island, establishing Japan's first modern settler colony.[4][5] While Japanese settlers colonized the island, the Ainu people were dispossessed of their land, forced to assimilate, and aggressively discriminated against by the Japanese settlers.[4][6] Many Ainu people were put into forced labor camps and exploited by the Japanese.[7] In the 21st century, the Ainu have been almost totally assimilated into Japanese society; as a result, many Japanese of Ainu descent have no knowledge of their heritage and culture.[8][9][10]

Kyuzoaoi (talk) 00:46, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Your version is simply too long for the lead, as this article is about Hokkaido as a whole. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:26, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, the version you pasted, which I realize is not yours. I shortened. Ainu deserves a mention but so do other major aspects of the island. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The shortening is a significant improvement (in terms of alignment with NPOV), and very much appreciated. But I think there's more to do; both in terms of reducing the current focus, and in including additional aspects which are currently absent.

For example: In reviewing the source, "Forced Labour in Imperial Japan's First Colony: Hokkaidō". 15 October 2020., I find that it has sections on: Exploitation of Ainu Labour, Convict Labour (largely political prisoners from outside Hokkaido), Tako labour and Korean labour. The lead section currently includes only one of these. I note also that we reference this source 17 times, which may evidence an undue focus. And finally, this source does not seem to support the lead text Many Ainu were put into forced labor camps, for which it is the sole reference. Rotary Engine ^talk 03:26, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Valid point. I removed "Many Ainu were put into forced labor camps." from the lede. LilAhok (talk) 06:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

In addition to the concerns above, the lead is supposed to summarize the article. It's worth noting that only 1/14 of the paragraphs under the History header of the article discuss the Ainu experience following the Meiji restoration. I shortened it somewhat to a more proportional representation so the sentence represents about 1/16th of the third paragraph in the lead. I agree with Rotary Engine that there seems to be an excessive reliance on the Jolliffe article which is only cited 6 times on Google Scholar. DCsansei (talk) 15:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

My edit to the lead which I believe better summarized the history (and corrected the word "annexed" to "incorporated" to reflect sources) was undone with a request to go to talk. Pinging prior contributors @Kyuzoaoi @LegalSmeagolian @Rotary Engine @LilAhok for feedback.

I must disagree with LilAhok that the "point of that lede paragraph is to give a brief explaination of how japan acquired the island and what happened to the ainu people who lived there for thousands of years". I believe the point of the paragraph is to summarize the history of Hokkaido as described later in the article and therefore should include additional information. I am also not seeing a consensus here as much as an ongoing discussion and an agreement that the Jolliffe is overused in this article. DCsansei (talk) 20:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The user's replacement of "annexed" with "incorporated" is inappropriate because it inaccurately describes how Japan acquired the island, failing to reflect the historical context. It's important to note that the term "annexed" is present in various reputable sources, not limited to just the Jolliffe source. Both the Hokkaido Museum and the official website of the Hokkaido Tourism Organization also use this term. To prevent any misunderstandings, I'll include the sources in the article.

Hokkaido Tourism Organization: https://www.visit-hokkaido.jp/en/feature/ogawamotoi

Hokkaido Musuem:https://www.hm.pref.hokkaido.lg.jp/wp-content/themes/hokkaidomuseum/images/forign_pdf/ENG-2-4.pdf LilAhok (talk) 21:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I think annexed is also the correct language, however I have copyedited the paragraph to use active voice and to shorten it. I think its in a good state now. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 14:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I added information about colonization into the lede because it's referenced in the article, which draws from a range of sources, including an entire book. I think it's important to note the distinction between "dispossessed" and "colonization". LilAhok (talk) 19:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Not everything needs to be spelled out with blue links, I think it is clear who was dispossessing the Ainu from their land from the way it is currently written. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 01:14, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

In the comment for the recent edit, it was noted that "Settler colonialism is not likely appropriate in this context for a bluelink, not all imperialism is settler colonialism, also restored active voice"

I disagree with the point that settler colonialism is not appropriate for the lede. Three references within the article affirm that Hokkaido underwent a process of colonization, transforming it into a colony.

Dominant Narratives of Colonial Hokkaido and Imperial Japan by Michele M. Mason pg.7: "In as much as an outside power, the Meiji state, came to exert absolute political sovereignty over Ainu Moshir (Land of Humans), subjugated the indigenous people, undertook rapacious economic exploitation, and pursued an aggressive permanent settlement project, Hokkaido can be regarded as Japan’s only successful settler colony." http://ndl.ethernet.edu.et/bitstream/123456789/71693/1/29.pdf.pdf

Japanese Empire in Hokkaido by Philip Seaton: "..., after which Japanese settlers colonized the island beyond Wajinchi."https://oxfordre.com/asianhistory/display/10.1093/acrefore/9780190277727.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277727-e-76

Forced Labour In Imperial Japan’s First Colony Hokkaidō By Pia M. Jolliffe:"I draw attention to how in this process, different groups of subaltern people ... contributed to the making of imperial Japan’s first colony..."https://apjjf.org/2020/20/Jolliffe LilAhok (talk) 04:28, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Only one of those sources describe Hokkaido as a "settler colony" - I would use this characterization with attribution and blue link in the body. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)