Talk:History of the Seventh-day Adventist Church

What the...? There are many, many more incidents pertaining to the history of the Seventh-Day Adventist church which aren't included, however this biological study is included. For example, the rise of many doctrines in the church and the Sanitarium are not even mentioned. I'm deleting the last section unless someone can tell me how it is more significant than other significant events not even mentioned. I feel as if some disgruntled ex-SDA has placed this here (not uncommon on Wiki!)m0rt

 Three cheersTravb 16:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Progress Meter

Hi! This section will serve as a progress marker for each of the sections of the article. Feel free to act out any of the tasks listed here, they are all in much need of doing. Please ask me if you have any questions! MyNameIsNotBob

Part 1: Early Beginnings

More

20:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually started this article with the intention that it would, on its own become more comprehensive than the main page article. Then the history section on the Seventh-day Adventist Church page would thus become a summary of the content here. Unfortunately I've kind of neglected this page... Guess its time to give it some more thought. MyNameIsNotBob 21:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Adventists Affirm?

Is it valid to reference Adventists Affirm? What I mean is, given the far-right position of the authors that make up the unoffical publication Adventists Affirm, isn't there a much better source. If I were preparing an essary for submission in an academic setting, I would not reference Adventist Affirm for factual information. In wikipedia talk: I think it is POV. -Fermion 09:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I can understand problems may be had with Adventist Affirm, however I chose the article because of the author, P. Gerard Damsteegt, associate professor of church history at Andrews University and author of Foundations of the Seventh-day Adventist Message and Mission. So yes, the publication my be POV, but the author holds enough credence to class the reference otherwise. MyNameIsNotBob 10:51, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed edits from page

The following edits do not seem to fit on the page in their current pose, not to mention they were in the references section. They should be referenced, book sales links should be removed and they should be put in the appropriate sections:

EG White stated that it was not in fact about the Law & Galatians. But rather about Righteousness By Faith.

When Waggoner spoke, she said 'Amen Brethren, there is great light here'. But when someone got up to give their rebuttal, she walked out.

White supported the message as given by Waggoner and Jones, describing it some 300 times as "The Loud Cry"; "The Third Angel's Message" and as the "Most Precious" message, in various letters to others. These can be seen in "1888 Materials" by EG White, published by the the Ellen G White Estate. No where else in her writings did she describe anything else as "The Loud Cry". She said that the message had been rejected "in a great degree".

She said that 'The Lord could have come by now, had it not been for the brethren in Battle Creek rejecting the message'. She said that the 2nd coming would be delayed, that 'we might have to wait many more years'; her son said that on her deathbed she expressed the hope that her church might repent and accept the message.

E G White's "1888 Materials" can be purchased from http://www.1888msc.org/sales/books/

Ansell 12:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Helpful reference

What is Adventist in Adventism? An excerpt from A Search For Identity by George Knight. This looks like a good summary of the development of Adventist beliefs, a perfect reference for this page. George Knight is one of the church's best historians. -Colin MacLaurin 22:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Found a review of six books on Adventist history. I understand that Seeking a Sanctuary, which just came out in a second edition, is one of the most respected books on the church. (Not by Adventists; although I recall one is a former Adventist). Colin MacLaurin 13:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Breakaway movements

Found this on a website about breakaway movements:

"First there was the Messenger Party, then the Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement. In short order came the Shepherd's Rod. Herbert W. Armstrong launched the Worldwide Church of God, then along came the Branch Davidians. Next, the Brinsmead group, the post-Glacier View “Gospel Fellowship” movement inspired by Desmond Ford's attack on the sanctuary doctrine, then the Steps to Life home church movement."

This site is certainly not NPOV, and I do not recommend it overall. However the list may be helpful to the page if good citations can be provided. Colin MacLaurin 02:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

the seventh day history

I am realy interested into knowing more about my church history,I want to know about the master guidesand how they operate.I am realy looking foward in growing spiritualy and being able to do evangalism and give light to god's people who have been,who does not know the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.21.104.253 (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

This is one of the better Adventist pages on Wikipedia. Nice going!

I am glad that this page tries to present historic fact rather than complaints in every section. The IJ article has a section for complaints against the Adventist Church - which is fine, but that should not be sprinkled into each section. Otherwise the reader will not know if they ever did find out the actual belief of the church or just a complaint characterization of it. -- my name is Bob ;) -- BobRyan777 (talk) 04:47, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, if by "complaint" you mean criticism, then it actually should be sprinkled into each section. Per policy, separate criticism sections are not forbidden, but are discouraged, preferring criticism being spread out through the article with criticisms in the relevant sections.Farsight001 (talk) 07:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT

Are we expected to believe that the GYC had a roughly similar impact on the SDA as all events of the Mid & Late 20th Century combined? That's what the WP:WEIGHT given to it in this article appears to be saying -- all on the word of one of its own VP/co-founders. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 17:04, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

One of the principles of Wikipedia is get started, edit, and the wonderful, experienced editors will show their goodwill and pitch in to make my feeble efforts much better. Are you one of those wonderful editors of goodwill? Certainly the 21st Century part of this article needs more balance. GYC is an important part of the 21st Century history of Adventism. More needs to be written on other aspects. eg.

1. The role of the new General Conference President as he puts his personal stamp on the direction of the church.
2. How will declining enrollment in Adventist boarding schools change the face of the church's educational program?
3. The dynamic interactions between administration and La Sierra University as it finds new footing within Adventism.
4. How will the success of both the 'conservative' schools, like Southern, and the 'liberal' schools like La Sierra impact the church. (Enrolment is increasing at both schools)?
5. The sense of mission developing; Maranatha Internation, Frontiers, etc.
6. How will all of the turmoil of the late 20th Century influence the church in the 21st.
7. These are just a few of the issues which can broaden the scope of the 21st Century section of this article.

• In the next ten years, the active historians within Adventism, the larger Christian community, and among those who study the phenomena of faith and religion will provide us with third party sources and some day, perhaps soon, the 21st Century part of this article will have more balance. Want to help? :) DonaldRichardSands (talk) 19:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)"GYC is an important part of the 21st Century history of Adventism." Please cite a reliable (preferably third-party) source for this claim. Given that no argument has been made for the prominence of this organisation other than raw numbers, and its "nearly 800 people registered" is only 0.004% of the "19.6 million worldwide adherents", this exceptional claim would seem to require an exceptional source, per WP:REDFLAG. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 19:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

GYC is an important part of the 21st Century history of Adventism. Consider the facts. This annual event began with a brain wave between two young adults in the middle of the night texting each other from across the continent. The first year, 400 took part. The second year 800. The eighth year 5100 registered. 6700 attended the main worship service.

Adventist Laymen's Services and Industries reported on the 2010 GYC gathering in Baltimore in this news item: GYC Welcomes 2011 Breaks Records in Baltimore.

Notice some of the facts listed in this report:

• 5,100 registered attendees (up 1,500 from last year)
• from 43 countries,
• 6,700 attending at the main worship service on Saturday.
• GYC is entirely planned and led by youth and young adults
• Attendees crowded onto approximately 70 buses on Sabbath afternoon for door-to-door evangelism in and around the city of Baltimore. Many church leaders, including General Conference president Ted Wilson and well-known evangelist Mark Finley, joined the youth for that venture.

These conferences are important for anyone studying the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Outside of Adventist circles, this is just another annual rally. Within Adventism, these conference have sustained their appeal to Adventist young people for eight years, that's almost the whole of this century. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 23:50, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I "notice[d] some facts":

• No source offered directly substantiating "GYC is an important part of the 21st Century history of Adventism."
• You base the claim upon your own interpretation (WP:Synthesis) of the raw numbers (and irrelevant details).
• The raw numbers show that less than 0.03% of the SDA registered for this event.

For me to accept that "GYC is an important part of the 21st Century history of Adventism", and worthy of such lengthy and prominent coverage in an article on the history of the SDA, you need to be able to demonstrate with (again preferably third-party) reliable sources that it has had a significant impact on the church as a whole -- not simply on attendees, the city in which it was held, or similar. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 04:06, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I would also note that (according to an older version of the GYC article), Adventist Laymen's Services and Industries is one of the main sponsors of GYC, so the fact that they lavish loving detail on the topic in their newsletter is hardly surprising, or any indication of "importance". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• The facts speak for themselves. I agree that the source is an Adventist source. As I have checked further, it seems to have originated from the North American Division of the church. It does not originate with ASI. Perhaps any claim of importance not stated by a third party historian is synthesis. Recall, that my statement of importance was made here on the talk pages. In the article, the facts about GYC have been sourced. The weakness is that the sources are Adventist sources. In defense, they are not directly GYC sources. I have not yet known you, Hrafn, to say anything supportive of an editor who differs with you, especially yours truly. You have reported intense frustration with editors of Adventist articles. I can understand that. A non-involved, unbiased veteran editor would be helpful. When I read the policies of Wikipedia, I note how kindly they have been written. I don't sense such kindness from you. You seem set on never admitting a valid point from what seems to be an opponent in a discussion. Surely there is something we can agree on. Perhaps agreeing to disagree. Anyway, a third party veteran editor who practices goodwill would be helpful, IMO. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 09:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

1. No, the facts do not "speak for themselves" -- it is not prima facie obvious that the actions of 0.03% of the SDA church is "an important part of the 21st Century history of Adventism", absent some further evidence overcoming its numerical insignificance.
2. No, it is not merely "an Adventist source" -- it is the GYC's own blooming sponsor.
3. No, the GYC passage is cited to a source that is "directly GYC sources", in that they are sourced to interview statements made by the GYC's own VP/co-founder.
4. In my short time on SDA-related articles, I have been regularly WP:BITEn -- I have been subjected to ad hominem attacks, guilt by association and thinly-veiled statements of WP:OWNERSHIP. When under attack, I cite policy in my defence. I would suggest that this is a more constructive approach than to edit-war or otherwise disrupt the process.
5. You and the other SDA regulars have done little to earn kindness from me. I am getting rather tired by the constant stream of demands for special treatment, lacking any solid reason why it would be in the encyclopaedia's best interest to WP:IAR. The whole thing comes across as a special pleading -- a form of fallacy that gets real annoying, real fast. Thus I tend to be considerably less charitable the tenth time I hear such an argument than the first.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 13:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Point taken. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 16:05, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

GYC Rescue

Hi all, I have been vacillating between the two options, merge or try to maintain a separate article. I have put considerable history information in the 21st Century section on the SDA history article. But, this has made it unbalanced because little has been written about the 21st Century. Much can be written but so far there is little. Hrfan has shown these weaknesses quite effectively. He has also inadvertantly taught me a refreshing WP policy called Ignore all the rules. "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." I believe the GYC story and its development helps add to, or improve, Wikipedia. Your kindly counsel has been, and is, appreciated. Also, a few other editors have expressed an interest in a GYC article rescue. "An article should not be deleted just because it is ill-formed. Some writer worked hard on that article. Some reader can use that article. Those writers and readers, if reached out to, can help us preserve this worthwhile content." I plan to include this analysis on the talk pages related to this article, as a courtesy to all interested parties. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 04:10, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Districts as forerunner to Union Conferences

Some have supposed that the Union Conference idea came from W.C. White and Daniells and their experience in Australia. There is another feature to the 1890s Adventism, i.e. the organization of Districts in North America. These Districts covered several local conferences and had an appointed leader. This aspect of Adventism is not mentioned much and should be developed, IMO. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

A Timeline for Adventist History

1831, Millerite Movement begins

1843, Adventists separate from churches

1844, October 22, The Great Disappointment

1848, Sabbath conferences

1850, Publishing work begin.

1860, Denominational name chosen.

1863, General Conference organized.

1874, Battle Creek College begins; J.N. Andrews: First Missionary

1888, Righteousness by faith at General Conference session

more later...

1990, George W. Brown, the first black man to be selected as president of the SDA Church

George W. Brown, a black minister, was nominated 130-81 to be President of the SDA Church at the 1990 General Conference Session in Indianapolis. After a night of prayerful consideration, he turned it down for family reasons. http://blacksdahistory.org/The_Adventist_Barack_Obama.html

Black History and the Adventist Church

This section intends to document Black History as it relates to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 01:11, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

1. Joseph Bates meets man from Montreal during the Millerite era.
2. William Foy, black Millerite preacher
3. Charles M. Kinney, the First Ordained African-American Adventist Minister.
4. Alonzo Barry, second ordained SDA black minister, a saga
5. James K. Humphrey
6. The death of Lucy Byard and the formation of regional conferences
7. The ministry of E. E. Cleveland
8. Ellen White's counsel regarding the work in the South.
9. EGW's controversial advice regarding the work in the South.
10. Edson White and his work in the South.
11. Will Palmer, Edson's associate on the Morning Star riverboat.
12. Silas Osborne, the First Seventh-day Adventist to Begin Work in the South.
13. R. M. Kilgore, early Superintendent of the work in the Southern States
14. Social justice and white Adventist leadership.

History of the SDA church needs an "events" orientation rather than doctrinal

Hi interested editors, as I look over this article and consider adding further info, I am finding it cumbersome. Anyone else notice the same? There are many historical points not yet included. History of missions, for example, the sailing of the Pitcairn. I think we need a time-based outline. Any thoughts? DonaldRichardSands (talk) 04:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

1868, The first camp-meeting

THE FIRST CAMP-MEETING.

BY A. SMITH. (1897) (Grnndvllle, Mich.)

IN this time when important ca7np-meetings are being held from year to year in many countries and nations, it would doubtless be interesting to learn something about the very first camp-meet- ing held by Seventh day Adventists. This meeting was held in a sugar-maple grove at Wright, Ottawa Co., Mich., Sept. 1-7, 1868. There were two large tents such as are now used by our ministers in ordinary tent-meetings, and twenty-two camping tents made of boards, or of cotton sheeting, or of both combined, except one, which was of canvas. A shower fell one night, and the cotton tents affording little protection, the bedding and clothing of the campers became so wet that the next day it was necessary to hang these articles upon stumps and fences to dry.

Elder J. N. Andrews was at that meeting, and in the eveniag he would call at each tent, and ask, "Are you all comfortable for the night?"

Tent-stoves were an unknown luxury, the camp- ers having to warm themselves and cook their food by fires built outdoors in primitive style.

The public meetings were held beneath the trees, the grove having been roughly seated for that purpose, except in rainy weather, or when it became necessary to divide the congrega- tion. Then at least one of the tents was re- sorted to. The cainp was lighted at night by fires kept burning in elevated boxes filled with earth. The trunks of the trees were sharply out- lined against the dark background of the deeper forest, by the altar-like fires of tho camp, or their upright stems were lost to view as they penetrated the overhanging pavilion of branches and leaves.

Elder James White, his wife, and others went by team from Battle Creek to that camp-meeting. The spiritual interest was very much the game that now characterizes such meetings. Of course no one at that time could foresee the magnitude and far-reaching influence that such meetings have assumed at the present day. The faith of believers then in the near coming of Jesus was, generally speaking, more practical and fervent than it is now. O for a re baptism of the good old Advent faith !

[Having been present at the meeting spoken of above (riding through with Brother and Sister White in their carriage), we can testify that zeal in the Advent faith was more fervent then than 'now, and there was more love among the brethren. Never have we seen congregations so completely under the melting Bpirit of the Lord as were some of the divisions of the camp at times on that occasion.— u. s.]

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18970706-V74-27__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=2

Political recognition

• 2010, Letter from President Obama to SDA church as read by Ted Wilson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrEXxYJWX8M&feature=related

• President Bush and Seventh-Day Adventist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOjTLNDrkOc&mode=related&search=

• Senator Clinton and Seventh-Day Adventist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIrugadxBpE&feature=related

Women's equality re: Ordination

http://www.one-in-christ.com/, 2011

Chronology for the History of the SDA Church

1844

1863

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