Talk:Heterogram (literature)

What's the difference between this and an isogram?

I would say intestines is an isogram (each letter appears the same number of times so iso-) but not a heterogram (which needs each letter to be different so hetero-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:458E:B900:CC42:ACFD:B14C:8CE0 (talk) 00:48, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Isogram

It looks like these two pages were created independently, and no one ever noticed how similar they were. Their descriptions and examples differ in style but have almost exactly the same substance.

It's unclear whether the terms are synonyms. The isogram page states that letters can repeat as long as all letters appear the same number of times, and the heterogram page doesn't say this. However, the source for the term "heterogram" confusingly states that "The term heterogram--a word with no repeated letters--refers to a word in which all letters appear the same number [of] times." Then this source goes on to list examples without any repeats.

If they're synonyms, then obviously we should go ahead and merge them. If not, I still think it's appropriate. Once the term "heterogram" was defined, describing the term "isogram" would take only a few sentences.

I have a weak preference for "heterogram" over "isogram" because the source for heterogram seems more reliable, and one commenter on Talk:Isogram came out in favor of "heterogram." Player 03 (talk) 00:33, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

(the one commenter here) The first place I ever saw the term isogram was in Dmitri Borgmann's book Language on Vacation. In it, he calls words that do not have more than one of each letter nonpatterns words or more generally isograms. He uses the term pair isogram for those with two of each letter and trio isogram for those with three. He didn't use the word heterogram at all. Someone else, most likely writing in Word Ways, came up with heterogram for the single isogram. I wrote an article for Word Ways which was about place name heterograms, but since I hadn't run into the term (or if I had, I'd forgotten), called them simply "isograms" without modification. After my article came out, someone suggested by email that I should have called them heterograms. I don't remember the person's argument or even who it was, but I agreed. Unfortunately I couldn't go back and change the magazine. (Actually, he wanted me to change the webpage where I'd posted the article. I didn't, but added a note about it. The page is no longer on the net, but the article is in pdf form on the Word Ways archive.) Dtilque (talk) 02:13, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

(dtilque again) I think I remember the reason the other person wanted "heterogram". It was because of the meanings of the roots. iso- means "equal" in Greek while hetero- means "different". Heterogram was more accurate if one was refering to nonpattern words. However, the Wikipedia policy is that article titles should be the most commonly used name, not necessarily the one most etymologically correct. Among Word Ways readers, the most commonly used name is likely "isogram", mainly because of Borgmann's influence. But WW has had such a shrinking circulation that they stopped publishing it in paper a couple years ago and now just do it online, so I'm not sure they should make a difference. On the other hand, the general public isn't aware of either name to any significant degree. I'd say you could choose either and no one will complain. Dtilque (talk) 22:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Support. I support the moving of the material in the Isogram article into Heterogram (literature). I don't think that isogram is a notable enough topic as there is nearly no reliable sources on the subject, and those that do discuss it give unclear or contradictory definitions of the term.

I searched Google for the search terms: isogram, dictionary isogram, and define isogram, and collected the top ten results in each case. I also Googled "dictionary" and searched within the top ten hits, and finally, looked at all the sources in the "isogram" article. In the table below, Equal means "equal numbers of each letter that appear (eg deed is ok)", and Only one means "no more than one of each letter" (eg deed is not ok).

Site	About site	Definition
ThoughtCo	Educational, from DotDash	Both."[A]n isogram is a word with no repeating letters (such as ambidextrously) or, more broadly, a word in which the letters occur an equal number of times. It is also known as a non-pattern word." Apparently quotes David Crystal's 2008 book By Hook or by Crook: A Journey in Search of English in defining that "[i]n a first-order isogram, each letter appears just once: dialogue is an example. In a second-order isogram, each letter appears twice: deed is an example." Third- and fourth-order isograms are also discussed.
decode.fr	Educational	Equal
Quora	Q&A forum	One answerer says it is only one, but then also says it is equal. Also described first-order concept, same text as ThoughtCo. States the term was coined by Dmitri Borgmann. Other answerer says only one, also used by some to mean equal.
Educalingo	Dictionary, but appears to be scraping Wikipedia?	Only one, also used by some to mean equal. Also extends to include phrases.
Memidex	Dictionary and scraper	Only quotes Wikipedia.
HowStuffWorks	Education site	Only one
Stack Exchange	Q&A forum	Users give various definitions but all in reference to Wikipedia.
https://dodona.ugent.be/	Education site	Only one. Also makes reference to Dmitri Borgmann's book Language on Vacation: An Olio of Orthographical Oddities.
encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com	Dictionary	No definition relating to wordplay.
Dictionary.com	Dictionary	No definition relating to wordplay.
Vocabulary.com/	Dictionary	No definition relating to wordplay.
Collins Dictionary	Dictionary	No definition relating to wordplay.
Your Dictionary	Dictionary	Equal, but specifically notes the source to be Wiktionary
The Free Dictionary	Dictionary	No definition relating to wordplay.
Wiktionary - Appendix	Wikimedia site	Only one. Gives no sources.
WordReference.com	Dictionary	No definition relating to wordplay.
geeksforgeeks.org/	Programming training	Only one.
Cambridge Dicionary	Dictionary	No definitions.
Vocabulary.com	Dictionary	No definition relating to wordplay.
Mirriam Webster	Dictionary	No definition relating to wordplay.
"Crossword Glossary"	Unknown	Permanent dead link
DataGenetics	Blog	Does not use the term isogram. Is a page setting out long words that meet the 'only one' definition.

Most dictionaries do not give any wordplay-related definition of isogram. Many sites that do appear to have derived their definition from Wikipedia or Wiktionary. Where any reference is given it is always to Dmitri Borgmann's book Language on Vacation: An Olio of Orthographical Oddities.

I tried searching through Language on Vacation using Google Books. I don't appear to be able to view the whole book. I can see that Borgmann presents the only one definition on page 125 though seems to prefer the term "nonpattern word" for this concept. However I can also see him talking about the word "spherophores" and says "note that this isogram..." implying he considers this an isogram even though it doesn't meet the Only One definition, but instead the Equal definition. Borgmann doesn't appear to use the terms "second-order isograms" and the like.

On Google Books, almost all of By Hook or By Crook is missing and can't be searched.

Based on this I would say:

• The most common definition of "isogram" is to mean something similar to a contour line.
• Using "isogram" to refer in any way to the types of letters in a word (or phrase) is an unusual definition.
• There is no consensus on how "isogram" would be defined in the context of wordplay.
• I do not think "isogram" in a wordplay sense is notable enough for an article.

HenryCrun15 (talk) 20:02, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 12:31, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Where did the term come from

If Borgmann never used the term "heterogram", as the most recent edit says, where did it come from? He was the only source for the word. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 11:51, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't have an answer for you, but the source for the "launched" part of that sentence is definitely referring to "isogram" and the term "heterogram" does not appear at all, so that edit certainly has some merit. -- Fyrael (talk) 14:55, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I've added a sentence saying it's not clear where the word came from - it's very odd that the article is about "heterogram" but all our etymology and history is about "isogram". Who the heck started using "heterogram"? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 17:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Potential citation found

I found the exact text asking for a citation (with a number changed?) on PlanetCalc's PATHFINDER cipher checker: https://planetcalc.com/6981/ . But, I don't want to edit it in personally because I don't know anything about this topic, and this might have been Citogenesis.

"For example, using the PATHFINDER cipher, P represents 1, A represents 2 and so on. The price tag for an item selling for $1200 may also bear the cryptic letters FRR, written on the back or bottom of the tag. A salesman familiar with the PATHFINDER cipher will know that the original cost of the item was $500, so that if the price is negotiated he will not accidentally eliminate all of the 140% margin in the $1200 price shown to prospective buyers. [citation needed]".

If someone more knowledgeable could check up on this, thanks.

• This website looks like it directly copied its text from an earlier version of this Wikipedia article. As such I'm not sure it is a reliable source. HenryCrun15 (talk) 01:11, 26 April 2021 (UTC)