Talk:Heracles/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Heracles. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Mess

Maybe I buried my comment on this too far down. As can be seen below:

Is "Heracles" is another name for Hercules? 83.130.3.195 19:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Heracles is the Greek name and Hercules is his Roman name. So yes, they are the same person. CanadianCaesar 7 July 2005 23:36 (UTC)
They are and aren't the same person. Hercules, to be sure, is based on Heracles, but they are different characters. There is different art based on each of them, for example, and the Romans added new pieces to the Hercules story, simultaneously eliminating other parts that had been part of his Greek story. Even the artwork on this page is of Hercules, and though the article claims to be about Heracles, Hercules is the subject of many of the informative sentences throughout the article. Note also that there is a separate article on Hercules, and that it has a small, separate section on Heracles so that people know they are different.

I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I'm going to mark this page for clean-up. If I had time to fix it up right now, I would, and I'll try to get to it myself, but it should be taken care of. Mswer 10:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

In short, this article is a disorganized mess that refers to the historical character it should be about by the wrong name wrong on at least 5 different occasions and has art of Hercules even though there is art of Heracles. It should most assuredly be cleaned up.Mswer 10:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Turns out I deleted 3/4ths of the article. Sorry! I will now tag it and keep the article. Apologies all around. Mswer 10:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

the order of the twelve labors

Some information I have here says that The Apples of Hesperides is the final labor, and cerberus is the eleventh. Someone please look into this... what accounts for the difference in order?

Try doing a search on google -- Cerberus is the twelfth on all the sites I found. There may be alternate versions, though. A lot of mythological stories have multiple variations. Maybe something should be added to the article about other versions... Tuf-Kat

Each author wrote them in a diferent order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.241.199.82 (talk) 22:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

why did Hera hate Heracles so much?

why did hera hate Heracles so much? Kingturtle 03:32, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Because she hated all of her husband's children by women other than her. I don't know why she seemed to hate him so much more than the others. Tuf-Kat 19:14, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's because it was the first child with a mother other then her that she learned about.-Flyingcheese 01:18, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In reply to Flyingcheese. Heracles was not the first of Zues' children to be fathered by a mortal. Perseus was also half mortal and was also fathered by Zeus upon the Greek princess, Danea.--92.237.122.88 (talk) 12:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)Anna Stevens

Graves explains much of Greek mythology as stories justifying historical events; largely the replacement of an original "Triple Goddess" matriarchical religion with a patriarchical religion brought by invaders. Graves was a little strange so I don't know how well received his interpretations are today, but in a number of ways at least, they make a lot of sense. And he was certainly the most learned classicist of his generation.

In this particular case, Heracles is interpreted as originally a kind of male champion of the female Triple Goddess, of whom Hera was the "mother" form. After the defeat of the matriarchical society by the patriarchical, the priests essentially would have announced that Heracles was actually the victim of the Triple Goddess, not her champion—much as a political leader today might try to publicly rewrite his or her personal history, however well-known, in order to match changes in public opinion. So Hera became the enemy of Heracles, and his feats, formerly accomplished to prove his worthiness as champion, now became proofs of male superiority.

Hera's hostility towards Zeus and his (and his progeny's) dominance over her are generally explained this way by Graves.

Also Heracles was half mortal and this fuelled Hera's hatred.

--207.237.240.192 16:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Graves' version is a part of the story. Any modern text offers more preceptive insights than out current jejune attempt in this article. Is anyone game to give us a couple of paragraphs on interpretations of this complicated relationship? --Wetman 08:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

On Heracles' male lovers

Heracles male lovers is a very controversial subject go to a library and look it up. It is a controversial subject because present day homosexuals are in a desperate attempt to make it seem that their perversion at some point in history was considered normal. They have targeted ancient Greece because with ancient Greek culture they are able to misinterpret, and misrepresent male friends' camaraderie as homosexuality more easily than with any other ancient civilization. There are very, very few instances of a true homosexual relationship spoken of openly in ancient Greek culture concerning the god Zeus. Typical of all such stories, an ancient Greek commentator refutes the whole notion of Zeus having homosexual relationships. The explanation for these stories is given as some Greek culture knows that what they are doing is considered sick, and abnormal, so they simply fabricate a story that says that their gods perform the same sick nonsense. This is to make their perversion seem normal. Books about the complete truth of the notion of homosexuality in ancient Greek culture are suppressed. Hercules did not have homosexual relationships. He had friends who had a strong sense of camaraderie; and camaraderie is something a homosexual can never understand. Their sickness lies in the fact that they feel they must have sex with something to express love. This is ridiculous. Nevertheless, again, Hercules was not a homosexual.

What a pile of kopros. The cowardly homophobe who wrote this didn't have the guts to sign his name. Homosexual behavior has been and is common among human males. It appears to be biologically mediated (just as heterosexual behavior is), and cannot, in that sense, be considered a "perversion". Many civilizations have considered homosexual behavior between sexually mature males to be perfectly normal -- these include the Medieval (and somewhat later) Japanese, the Spartans, and the Celts. I am curious as to how this sniveling weasel of a writer "knows" that "camaraderie is something a homosexual can never understand". (The nameless author would do well to do some reading about the Sacred Band of Thebes, and find a copy of Comrade Loves of the Samurai, a collection of short stories about homosexual relations among Samurai, written by a 17th century heterosexual man.) By the same "reasoning", heterosexual men can never truly love a woman, as such love will be overwhelmed by sexual attraction. This entry is not a legitimate difference of opinion, but a string of objectively incorrect statements. It's vandalism, and should be removed. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 02:13, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

hercules

Is "Heracles" is another name for Hercules? 83.130.3.195 19:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Heracles is the Greek name and Hercules is his Roman name. So yes, they are the same person. CanadianCaesar 7 July 2005 23:36 (UTC)
- They are and aren't the same person. Hercules, to be sure, is based on Heracles, but they are different characters. There is different art based on each of them, for example, and the Romans added new pieces to the Hercules story, simultaneously eliminating other parts that had been part of his Greek story. Even the artwork on this page is of Hercules, and though the article claims to be about Heracles, Hercules is the subject of many of the informative sentences throughout the article. Note also that there is a separate article on Hercules, and that it has a small, separate section on Heracles so that people know they are different.
  
  I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I'm going to mark this page for clean-up. If I had time to fix it up right now, I would, and I'll try to get to it myself, but it should be taken care of. Mswer 10:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Eclipse Date

The September 7, 1251 BCE eclipse date for Herakels birth is contradicted by all the major sources including Jerome (Chronicon), Eusebius (Preparation of the Gospel) and Apollodorus. February 10 1286 BC is the most likely date for the eclipse when one night was turned into three. Jerome places the end of Herakles 12 Labours in 1246 BC (see translation of Jeromes Chonicon by Roger Pearse et al.) Eusebius along with Clement and Apollodorus place Herakles reign over Argos about 91 years before the end of the Trojan War (1183 BC). If Herakles was born in 1250 then he would be younger than Theseus who was 50 when he abducted Helen (according to Plutarch's Lives), which according to Jerome occurred in 1222 BC. The September 7, 1251 BCE date should be removed and replaced with February 10 1286 BC. Calculating back from when Herakles ruled over Tyrines in Argos at the same time as Eurestheus ruled over Mycenae in 1264 BC (Jerome, Eusebius, Clement and Apollodorus), Herakles would have been born at least 18 years earlier in 1282 BC. This shows that the February 10 1286 BC eclipse date is corroborated by these ancient historians and the only date that fits the historical facts.--Argyrosargyrou 16:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(Eusebius in his Preperation of the Gospel quotes Clement saying that "from the reign of Hercules in Argos to the deification of Hercules himself and of Asclepius there are comprised thirty-eight years, according to Apollodorus the chronicler: and from that point to the deification of Castor and Pollux fifty-three years: and somewhere about this time was the capture of Troy.") User:Argyrosargyrou|Argyrosargyrou]] 16:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if all of the speculation regarding the dates of Heracles' life should be included in the article, as it is just that, speculation. The application of modern astronomy to mythological figures is somewhat absurd. Moreover, trying to pin down a precise date for any event in Greek Myth is going to have serious problems due to the numerous, conflicting tellings and timelines that obscure any simple formulation of a mythological Greek "history." Going with that logic one might as well add that Heracles was believed to have paced out the Olympic stadium in 756 (a myth that someone should add to the article), which would have made him several hundred years old. It would be more helpful if it were simply stated that the Ancient Greeks believed he lived sometime in the 13th or 14th century B.C. rather than giving precise dates that would give the impression that he was a real person and that those events really happened at those specific times.--MS

A February 10 conception would place his birth in early November, but not necessarily the 4th. While ancient Greeks celebrated his birthday on the 4th of the month, remember ancient Greek months are not Roman ones. The ancient Greek calendar is essentially the same as the Jewish one - although different Greek states had different names for the months and started the year with a different month, they all followed the same lunar-based alternating 30/29 day month structure. Jess Cully 10:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

It's still refered to Heracles on September_7? JanCK 14:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

vandalism

Why is this the target of vandalism all of a sudden? --Victim of signature fascism | help remove biblecruft 21:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I, too, have noticed a large amount of vandalism targeting this article, particularly the section regarding Heracles' male lovers. Unfortunate, but, oh well. I guess some IP editors just can't stand the concept of the manly man Heracles having male lovers. So much for NPOV. Abhorsen327 01:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Name

Was his name Ήρακλήζ or Ήρακληζ?? The introduction uses the first spelling but the description on the picture of the statue uses the second spelling. Which one is it the one with(ή) or the one without(η) the tonos on the Eta? 23:07, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Probably it is the one with the acute accent, but maybe they spell it in modern greek without the accents.

The accent is a circumflex, the first character needs a rough breathing, and the last character should be a final sigma-- Ἡρακλῆς. There's also an epic form: Ἡρακλέης. (These are ancient forms; I don't know what the modern Greek spelling is.) Akhilleus 22:59, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

The modern greek spelling is Ηρακλής (pronounced as Iraklis).

Merge?

Is there really value in having separate articles at Heracles and Hercules? Should the two be merged? And if so, which name should prevail — the more ancient Heracles or the more common Hercules? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Please don't confuse Hercules of Roman myth, the Renaissance and Saturday television with the Greek Heracles, any more than you'd confuse Minerva with Athene. --Wetman 05:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Heracles' children

The format of this section was bizarre, so I replaced it with a short prose summary. Obviously, this section could benefit from some editing--the children of Heracles are fairly important as a link between mythology and aristocratic identity--the ruling classes of many Dorian cities traced their ancestry back to Heracles in the archaic period. Akhilleus 05:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Jason

I just noticed an IP edit to Jason's listing under "Heracles' Male Lovers," which states that Jason loved Heracles, but Heracles did not love him in return. I am unsure as to the factual accuracy of this... I do not know if it is accurate, but I likewise do not know if it is inaccurate. Does anyone know whether this should be subject to a rv or not? Thanks! Abhorsen327 22:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not totally clear what the source for this material is, but the list of male lovers seems to be coming from Plutarch's Erotikos--so a good many of these relationships are late literary invetions and not widely attested. I'm inclined to get rid of most of them, but not all--Hylas is Herakles' eromenos in Apollonios' Argonautica, if I remember right--but I'm guessing that Admetus, Jason, and Nestor are rarely, if ever, said to be Herakles' lovers. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I find it significant that Plutarch describes them as beyond counting, while the names themselves come from various sources (though many later inventions seem to be known from Ptolemy Khennos alone). So against the lack of other sources we have to set the word of Plutarch, which counts for much, as well as Ptolemy. I do not see why they should not be mentioned in the article as long as a note is made of the nature of the information. I have referenced the various entries. Haiduc 12:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Haiduc, thanks for providing all the sources. (I wish the rest of the article was as well sourced.) To me, the lovers that are attested only in Plutarch and Ptolemy aren't nearly as significant as Hylas and others attested in earlier authors or cult. I doubt that it was widely belived that Jason, Nestor, or Philoctetes were lovers of Herakles--it seems more like the invention of some author who thought that Herakles slept with every hero he ever met. I wonder if it would be better to separate the lovers given only by Plutarch/Ptolemy into a separate list or paragraph from those given by earlier sources, which I think would both make the text easier to understand and make the footnotes cleaner, as we could consolidate them. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure I see the need to segregate the important from the less important, as long as the status of each is clearly stated. The problem here is that we are not playing with a full deck, so to speak. A lot of the pederastic stories were suppressed, so that our information on them is even more fragmentary than on his relationships with women. Thus even the few that are mentioned here are in all likelihood only a meager fraction of all his putative lovers, and valuable for their rarity. I would imagine that a traveler through Greece would have been told in every city he visited that yes, Heracles had been there, and such and such family hails from his tryst with so and so, and young what's his name was his lover and there's his tomb. Since what we are discussing here is not whether he "really" slept with X or Y, but whether the story was told, I think we need nothing more. And from the point of the readers, it may well be very valuable to know that some stories had a more refined pedigree while others were more spurious, and that there were a lot of them. Haiduc 23:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Haiduc, I'm not proposing removing any information, just reorganizing it some. And actually, rewriting it as prose rather than an annotated list, which I think will be easier to read. I'll try to write something up when I have a bit more time, and post it here on the talk page; then we can see if it's an improvement or not.

I'm sure you're right that every city had Herakles stories--the classical Greek equivalent of "George Washington slept here." Emphasis on the "slept," right? But the stories that are well-attested are probably well-attested because they had more than local significance--i.e., only the Pylians would say that Herakles slept w/Nestor, whereas everyone knew that Hylas was his beloved.

--Akhilleus (talk) 03:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

My apologies - I was still arguing against your original suggestion about removing the less well known eromenoi. And I have no doubt that you are right about local vs. universal significance, something that should be mentioned in the section. And re-writing this as prose would be an improvement, and I'll be more than happy to lend a hand. If you would do a quick first draft I'll elaborate it, time is not a problem. Haiduc 10:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I had some free time and rendered the list as prose. Hope it passes muster. Haiduc 01:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

submitting to Featured article candidates

Why not reference this article more fully and try to get it chosen as FAC? Haiduc 01:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I oppose making this a featured articles until it is merged with Hercules. Bacchiad 19:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the idea of nomiating this as a FA, and I disagree with Bacchiad regarding a possible merge. The Greek and Roman myths regarding Heraccles, and Hercules, should be kept separate, since although they probably refer to the same person, they are separate in terms of mythological heritage. If this article were merged with Hercules, then the wikipedia editors involved in mythological articles would have to follow suit by merging the Greek and Roman counterparts of all the other heroes, creatures, and gods. Right now, all of these appear to reference to their counterparts in the other mythological set, which I believe is more appropriate than merging. In order to keep to this separation of myths, I believe that any information contained within this article which refers to Roman myths regarding Hercules should be removed and added to Hercules. Hopefully this makes sense in terms of organization and consistency—comments, anyone? Abhorsen327 00:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

There is so much to be said about both traditions, and the space we have to work with is somewhat restricted, so that we would be doing a disservice to this topic to try to include both discussions in one article of proper size. By the time we develop this article fully, with proper references, we will be close to the ideal size of a large article anyway. Furthermore, we are doing a service to our readers by separating the information on each tradition. Haiduc 01:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge

What?!?!? I appreciate the work that Bacchiad put in to merge this with Hercules, but I thought that most people contributing to the talk were in favor of keeping the two separate. Others, please comment. Did I miss some major decision? What does the merge of this with Hercules mean for other mythological articles. If a merge of Hercules and Heracles is insisted upon, then I think the community should follow suit by merging the names of all of the articles on gods, heroes, and characters who have different names in both Greek and Roman mythology. Abhorsen327 14:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

No. Hercules and Heracles are a special case. See this section below pasted in from the Hercules talk page. Bacchiad 15:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Either way, Bacchiad, there is no general consensus in favour of a merge, either on the Hercules page nor the Heracles page. Please revert your merge so that proper consensus can be reached.Nihiltres 02:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Easy there, Nihiltres. There has been a merge notice up there for weeks. Only two anti-merge advocates posted in that time, and one of them seemed willing to give the merge the benefit of the doubt. Since you and Abhorsen didn't speak up until after the merge, I couldn't really take your opinions into account now, could I?

That being said, I'm open to a more scientific poll. If we can measure consensus in some more feasible way than talk-page discussions that move nowhere, I'll abide by the decision either way. As for undoing the merge: if you want to do so, I won't get into an edit war. I'm content to stand back until a better opinion-measuring process is proposed and completed.

Sorry for stepping on toes. Bacchiad 03:25, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

Is there really value in having separate articles at Heracles and Hercules? Should the two be merged? And if so, which name should prevail — the more ancient Heracles or the more common Hercules? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Please don't confuse Hercules of Roman myth, the Renaissance and Saturday television with the Greek Heracles, any more than you'd confuse Minerva with Athene. --Wetman 05:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I vote for a merge. "Greco-Roman" gods fall into two categories.

First, there are native Roman gods who were at one point or another more-or-less arbitrarily associated with Greek gods. Your example of Athena and Minerva is a good case of that. In these cases, I advocate separate articles, with the Roman one focusing on cult practices - i.e. those traits which were not the result of borrowing.

But second, there are Greek gods that had no native Roman equivalent, and were simply imported. Apollo is the best example. But Hercules is one too. With Minerva, poetic descriptions take on Greek clothing, but the powers and rites keep on going on as if there'd been no Athena. With Hercules, it's a Greek borrowing and in constant dialogue with the Greek cult right from the start. I say merge. Bacchiad

The idea that Roman Hercules is in dialogue with Greek Herakles means that there's differences between the two, which is a good argument for having two articles. Less redundancy would be good, though--the section "The Greek Legend" can be eliminated from the Hercules article. Instead, we can have stuff about Hercules' links with Italy and the western Mediterranean--his fight with Geryon and all the little events that happen on his way back from that labor figure in a lot of local legends in western areas colonized by Greeks, and this seems to be a big factor in his popularity with the Romans. Akhilleus 18:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

You're being sophistic. Minerva was a Roman goddess from way back in the mists of time. The Romans said, "hey, she's kinda like Athena". Minerva and Athena should be two separate articles. Hercules never existed until the Romans came in contact with the Greeks. They took him direct, only they happened to mispronounce his name.

If this does not sway you, however, consider that if we keep Heracles and Hercules separate, we should also have separate articles on Apollo and Apollon, Ulixes and Odysseus, Aeneas and Aineias, Oedipus and Oidipous. Bacchiad

If Ulixes had as many temples as Hercules, and was as different from Odysseus as Hercules is from Herakles, then, sure, they'd warrant separate articles. Instead of the standard you're proposing for whether there should be separate articles, try this one: how much is there to write about the different Greek and Roman figures? Would the section on the Roman version compare in length and interest to the Greek version? Then it's worth considering separate articles.

For Hercules, you can write a lengthy, informative, and interesting article that doesn't overlap much with Herakles, because Hercules was fairly important to Roman religion and literature. Ulixes, not so much, so that material should be covered in a section in the Odysseus article. Apollo doesn't seem to have many distinctive Roman features. Aineias is not very important in Greek culture, central in Roman, so one article.

It's worth noting that the Oxford Classical Dictionary has separate articles on Herakles and Hercules, on Athena and Minerva, but only one article for Aeneas, Odysseus, and Oedipus. There are definitely worse models than the OCD. Akhilleus 22:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm with you on Ulixes; what about Apollo/Apollon? And how, specifically, is Hercules so radically different from Heracles? The article at present doesn't say; adding some well-argued text about that would be the best case against merging.

But you point to the real nut of this question, which is the overabundance of Her**les' popularity from the Greek Dark Ages up until today. The OCD has to deal with the Her**les of myth and the Her**les of cult in Greece and Rome. They take the sensible route of separating myth and Greek cult into one compartment and Roman cult into another. Also, the OCD - since it is a dictionary rather than an encyclopedia - has an editorial preference for short articles over long.

We have an extra wrinkle: beyond Greece and Rome, we have the Hercules of post-Roman culture and Saturday morning TV. I do not believe that having one article on the twelve labors and Greek temples and one on the Ara Maxima in the Forum Boarium and saturday morning cartoons makes much sense. First, the division lacks proportion. Second, those readers who come looking for the historical background on the pop-culture character are going to be better served by the material in the Greek article. The OCD entry on "Heracles" has the stuff that the average uninformed reader is going to want to find first. OCD's "Hercules" is specialist stuff. It makes sense for them, but I'd suggest not for us.

Since our subject is threefold rather than twofold, and since we do not have the same space restrictions as the OCD, I still say that a single article would be the best way to put all of the disjecta membra in proper context and proportion.

Let me be clear, however, that I do not want to establish a general precedent of merging Roman and Greek mythology articles together. I believe we've argued ourselves to a standstill here. Perhaps we should seek outside opinion? Bacchiad

You make good points. I agree that we need to structure the articles so that the general reader can find the information they need/are interested in. And, I agree that having one article on Greek Herakles and another on Roman Hercules + pop culture Hercules isn't the most logical way to divide things. So, I don't oppose a merge.

However, I do think that the potential length of a combined article may warrant *some* kind of division. Furthermore, the existing Heracles article could use more material--for instance, I think it would be useful to have separate sections on Herakles in tragedy, comedy, and philosophy, because each genre has a strikingly different idea of who "Herakles" is. Such an expansion would make Heracles pretty long, and merging in the Roman and later material might make an excessively lengthy article. I'm not sure if there's a consensus about how long is too long, though--the 32kb size seems like a guideline rather than a firm rule.

If we maintain separate articles, it should be easy to direct readers between the two with appropriate cross-references--that way we can ensure that users find the information they need. And I'll point out that edits are continuing on both articles, so there doesn't appear to be popular demand for a merge. I'll just leave it up to other contributors... Akhilleus 05:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Cross-references are in the opening paragraphs of each article, so we certainly aren't discussing possible confusion on the part of the Wikipedfia reader here. --Wetman 06:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Repeat: Hercules/Heralces (and Apollon/Apollo) are a special case. Bacchiad 15:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to go with keep separate for the Hercules/Heracles articles, based on the "special exception" and special significance that others have pointed out. I do have a related question, though. Why is the Greek "Heracles" article spell the hero's name with a "c" rather than a "k"? I mean, if we're keeping the Roman and Greek myths separate, why does the Greek article use a Romanized spelling? Maybe that's just my own bias slipping out. Ande B

I don't think that the statement that 'Hercules never existed until the Romans came in contact with the Greeks' can be correct. the Romans inherited many of their ancient religious concepts from the Etruscans, who were the original kings of Rome and founded it in terms of it being a city-state. The Etruscan name for Herakles was Hercl, and it is a a pretty easy step to derive fromn that the roman name Hercules. Tashkop 00:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You people would be wiser to correct the numerous mistakes I have found while reading this article than argue about what damn name this article should be placed under. The Romans and Greeks readily identified their Gods with those of other peoples. You are thinking like monotheists. The Romans and Greeks could of cared less.130.212.18.24 (talk) 17:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Bacchiad relents

I stand by my previous comments that there is greater utility in having a separate entry for Hercules and his Roman manifestations and modern revival. Haiduc 11:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

This seems to be the consensus, now that all parties have had a chance to view their opinions. I'll consent to a de-merge, therefore. Let me add, for my friends who frequent the Heracles page but were not watching Hercules, that I'm sorry you all were left out of the initial discussion. Bacchiad 06:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

unsourced?!

Why is this article singled out as "unsourced"? It is one of the better sourced articles, and all contain unsourced statements. I tried to remove the tag but could not find it. Haiduc 00:42, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Haiduc, I must have missed the comment that said this article was unsourced. But I agree the Herakles article is one of the more thoroughly sourced articles I've seen lately. Ande B 00:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Ande, look at the category line at the bottom of the article. The tag is there, and I can't figure out how to remove it. Haiduc 01:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is really weird. I probably did what you did and during the preview it looked as if I had gotten rid of the category but after I saved it, there it was again. It looks as if the change came about on April 8, 2006 during this edit: 16:33, 8 April 2006 Wetman (cleaning up and editing prolixity and naive assertions). I'll see if I can't get some help on deleting it because neither you nor I seem to be able to. I never had this trouble before, though. Ande B 02:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The category is automatically inserted when there are {{fact}} tags on the page. Eliminating the tags will cause the category to disappear.

Haiduc, you're right that this article is better sourced than most Greek mythology articles, but as you observe, it's still got some unsourced stuff. I'd like to raise the sourcing of the article to the level of the eromenoi section, if possible. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

ok, the category "Articles with unsourced statements" is gone now. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The Politics of the Myth

One of Grave's themes was that the myth of Heracles was turned from that of a cahracter forming a support role in a matriarchial dominated society, to a character forming a more central role in a male dominated society. As part of that the entire myth, he says, was turned on its head, and Hera (The now depised matriachal religion) is depicted as the evil stepmother. This is all part of the overtturn of society that occurred at the time. This approach does provide a possible explanation for both - why does hera hate Heracles (Because we have to hate Hera), and why was Heracles named for Hera (Because he was originally part of her myth and subordinate to her). presumably it si easier to change the emphasis of a myth, than it is to change the names and labels. This is of course a common political gambit even in our modern times.

The question I have is - should the article mention and place in context this posible redaction of the myth through the millenia? Tashkop 00:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not know how widely accepted Graves' theory still is, but it seems to deserve mention as such. That myths had a political aspect, and that they evolved to suit the needs of an evolving society, is beyond question. Haiduc 01:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

yes - Herakles name, in Greek 'Glory of Hera' hardly makes sense in the classical interpretation.

Further to the above, I notice that the Etruscan Hercle redirects to this page, but according to everything I can read about the Etruscans, Hercle was the son of Zeus and Hera, called by them Tinia and Uni, which possibly represents a older and more original form of the Myth. As such, given that hercules has its own page, but is essentially the same (greek) myth (with additions), should not Hercle be deserving of its own page. Bearing in mind that it is actually asignificantly differnt myth, representing a different tradition altogther?

This is a facinating image of an adult Hercle being suckled by UNi (If the intepretation is correct, I am not sure what the provenance is). http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/uni.html In the classical myth the idea of Herakles suckling at Hera, although disonnant, is sometimes mentioned, but the image of him doing it as an adult is completely at odds with the myth. Tashkop 02:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Graves' theory isn't widely accepted, and the idea of a primitve matriarchy superceded by the patriarchal Olympian religion is generally regarded as a modern myth (at least in academia). His name is interepreted by many classicists as meaning "glorious through Hera", and others interpret the first element of his name as coming from heros ("hero"), and having nothing to do with Hera.

Beware of regarding the Etruscan myth as "older" or "original"; Hercle is a synthesis of Etruscan and Greek elements, so Etruscan iconography doesn't necessarily tell us much about the background of the Greek hero. The notion of an "original" form of a myth is highly problematic anyway.

The political nature of the Heracles myth(s) certainly should be mentioned, but we can find better sources than Graves. Two are Irad Malkin, Myth and Territory in the Spartan Mediterranean, and Karl Galinsky, The Heracles Theme. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The linked illustration purports to reproduce an engraving on the back of an (undated) Etruscan mirror. "In the classical myth" suckling Heracles is an infant: See this fourth-century Apulian lekythos: Heracles is shown as a past-weaning age boy. The adult suckling Hercules is uniquely Etruscan, part of what distinguishes Hercules from Heracles. But notice the Italian provenance of both these images. Tinia and Uni are Etruscan counterparts of Zeus and Hera, not identical with another name: compare Demeter and Ceres etc etc.: the distinction may be appear unnecessarily subtle. "An older and more original form" might be hard to demonstrate, with so little Etruscan material to go on: the suckling motif appears in two very late sources, 'Hyginus Astronomica and Catasterismi (explaining the Milky Way) and in Diodorus Siculus (iv.9.5-6), yet another source from Magna Graecia (Sicily).

The liminal role of Heracles in the transition between the old religion and the new Olympian religion is standard fare: see Ruck and Staples, Kerenyi et al. Robert Graves goes overboard in sociological-historical readings; of course, to dismiss Graves' perceptions altogether would be sophomoric. --Wetman 05:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be much better to cite Kerenyi rather than Graves. However, I don't think it's right to say that "The liminal role of Heracles in the transition between the old religion and the new Olympian religion is standard fare", at least not based on the sources you mention. Within classical studies, Kerenyi is a somewhat marginal figure; his work is cited by Burkert, but otherwise I haven't seen many citations. Ruck and Staples are the authors of a classical mythology textbook, not, in my opinion, a great source for wikipedia--we should go for monographs or journal articles instead. Otherwise the work of Ruck and Staples focuses on entheogens, which is a bit outside the mainstream of scholarship on Greek mythology. The sources I have at hand, Burkert's Greek Religion and the OCD say nothing about Heracles playing a role in a shift to Olympian religion, much less supplanting a matriarchy.

As I've already mentioned, the idea of a shift between an "old religion" (matriarchal? chthonic?) to the "new Olympian religion" is regarded with suspicion in classical scholarship; at least a few of the Olympians were around during Mycenaean times, and Heracles himself has a strong Indo-European lineage, which suggests that he or someone like him was part of Aegean religion as soon as Indo-Europeans showed up. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Akhilleus - referring to your earlier comments that the name Herakles could mean 'Glorious through Hera". I understand that people taking this view propose that he was given this name because of his glorius defeat of Hera. No offence to you personally but doesn't this sound like sophistry? With respect to your comment that it could alternatively be based on the earlier greek word for hero. I have no idea which is earlier, but I understand that the word that you refer to as Hero, is in fact Heras. So haven't we come full circle - back again to Hera?Tashkop 08:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move (closed)

Heracles → Herakles – {'Herakles' is a better reflection of the ancient Greek spelling, and the current Herakles page is a redirect to Heracles… --Akhilleus (talk) 04:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)}

Note: until recently Herakles was a stub about an Othello-playing computer program, which I moved to Herakles (software).

The spelling Herakles is pretentious in English, Italian and French contexts, though not so in some other European languages. --Wetman 05:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

The request is closed, so please do not add further votes.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one

Apologies to Akhilleus

Recently I seemed to delete Akhilleus' apposite comment. I think it was that my much-too-long watchlist may have been stale when I got to Talk:Heracles, and I wasn't alert enough not to edit without shifting to the newer version of the page. My apologies.--Wetman 21:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Ascension of Heracles

I noticed that this article doesn't have anything about the ascension of Heracles- I'm certain that it was a part of Greek myth. Should it be added, or was there a reason for it not being a part of it? -Elizabennet 03:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

If you mean Herakles' deification, the usual word for this is "apotheosis". It should be added. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Illustrations

The Roman and Renaissance images of Hercules used to illustrate this article add to the confusion between the two and help fuel the impression that the articles should be merged. WikiCommons has Greek vase paintings of Heracles that would help illustrate the difference better. --Wetman 18:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we have the War of the Gods in Herakles' s Article??

I read the Robert Graves version of the life of Heracles (The Greek Myths), and in it he recounts the war of the Gods, in which Herakles/Hercules was instrumental in defeating the Titans (with a little help from Athena IIRC).

Why don't we have this section in this article??

(I not only have a whole bunch of Wiki Articles to contribute already, but I also don't have that book anymore, else I'd consider adding that section)

Thanos777 02:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I feel you may be mixing up the Titanomachy (The Titans versus the Olymipians) and the Gigantomachy, the war between the gods and the giants, in which Heracles was intsrumental. I agree that there should be a section on this, as this is part of the original Greek myth, and distinct from the Hercules mythos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.153.128 (talk) 22:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Pronounciation

Is "Herakles" Pronounced herakils or heraklees? Maybe Herayklehs? Should an IPA guide be added? I don't know. I hate not knowing stuff. That's why I like wikipedia. Please help, I am REALLY new to wikipedia. Goldfritter 16:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hair'-uh-klees.--Wetman 22:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hair'-uh-klehs, rather! Nobody but English speakers pronounce e as IPA: [i:]. The English pronunciation of the astronomical constellations are absolutely horrifically obnoxious. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 13:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Megara

In the section The Labours of Heracles it states that he slew Megara but in Marriage, liaisons and death it states he gave her in marriage to Iolaus. Anyone know which is considered correct? 195.92.40.49 13:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Depends who you believe. In the madness inflicted hby Hera he slew his children, but Megara escaped, according to pseudo-Apollodoros, who reports that Megara escaped and married Iolaus; but Euripides reports that Hercules shot Megara too: "Megara, Hercules' First Wife". --Wetman 22:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Christians go home

I don't know how put that christian article up there, but it has no place in greek mythology nor does it have any credit. I would sooner beleive in Herakles than I would in One god religions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.105.159 (talk) 14:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Be welcome. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 13:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Just a note, count the number of times that Herakles kills in the article! Not for peacefully minded to believe in. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 14:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Roman Hercules bronze in Greek Heracles article

There seems to have been lots of debate about whether Hercules and Heracles articles should be the same or different, and good arguments on both sides. But if the result is to keep them separate, it seems bizarre that the first image in Heracles should be a Roman statue. Llajwa 14:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Extraordinary bench

I looked up "bench" in the OED and am still unable to figure out what Herakles' quality of "extraordinary bench" refers to. I've never heard the term before (which is proof of nothing, of course). I'm sure it's probably just a reflection of my ignorance, yet I'm wondering if this is a typo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.2.55.40 (talk) 20:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Heracles

Also known as Hercules —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.155.4 (talk) 23:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Eri-Aku and the Lord of the City (Baal-zebul) of Tyre

There are a number of interesting tidbits out there linking Hercules with the mythical Babylonian ruler Eri-Aku (see List of kings of Tyre), the Baal of the City (Baal-zebul) of Tyre a.k.a. Melqart, and the Tyrian Games (one of a circle of middle eastern games predating the Greek celebration of the Olympics). The tough part is deciding if these claims are well established. I'm curious if anyone here has a strong opinion on the matter that they could elaborate. Wnt (talk) 01:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Cornucopia

I read the part of this article where Heracles was attributed with tearing off a horn from a river god and it was called the cornucopia. I beg to differ. What ever it was called it was not the same horn that people called the Cornucopia or Horn of Amalthea. For in your article on Zeus, Heracles father, you have him being nursed by either a nymph called Amalthea, or a goat called Amalthea and her horn was the one attributed to the source of the Cornucopia myth. If there were two cornucopias, then this is the first I've heard of it. But as the myths seem to blend together in Europe, we also get Thor who is a bit like Heracles and Woden(Oden) who is a lot like Zeus. And something called a Sampo that Milled Flour, Salt and Gold out of thin air. For each of these Myths we also have varying stories with each town that celebrates the gods and their deeds. And while Hercules has been attributed with many many deeds and gifts, his father was the one associated with the Cornucopia, not him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.227.172.238 (talk) 02:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

more detail

Mstare88 (talk) 19:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)i have added that the two more task were not both because he had help the stables was becase he and Augeias (the owner of the stables) had an agreement that he would pay Heracles for cleaning the stables. that is why it was not counted and the hydra was becayse his cousin Ioloas helped him. i also added that the two extra labors were retrieving the Golden Apples from Hera's garden and captureing Cerebus from the underworld

how many marriages?

In the section on Hercules' woman, it states at the outset "During the course of his life, Heracles married four times." Then it precedes to describe: 1st to Megara, 2nd to Omphale, and 3rd to Deianira, whose suspicion results in his "death" (the end of the mortal part of him). That's only three marriages. The episode involving all 50 of Thespius' daughters, while appropriate to the section, do not constitute a fourth "marriage", as far as I can tell. Would somebody with more expertise on Hercules correct this point? Lapisphil (talk) 02:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

name meaning and history

I've heard it claimed that since the name meaning "glory of Hera" is inappropriate for his actual myth, that the name itself may have been taken from a real historical figure (rather like how King Arthur may have been a real person, but would have borne little resemblance to the myths...) Is there a reputable source for this, and if so should it be in the article? Vultur (talk) 22:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Citation for Herodotus section

I don't have a WP acct, so could someone please add this-- the Herodotus reference (Herakles sleeping with a snake woman, founding Scythian race, etc) is Hrdt 4.8-10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.167.95.228 (talk) 03:36, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Death of Heracles

Since this article is about the hero in his Greek aspect, shouldn't Greek literary sources be used whenever possible. I.e., instead of citing the roman poet Ovid, how about using Sophocles' play Trachiniae and Apollodorus' Library? Ifnkovhg (talk) 20:51, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

the ancient greek city of pompei buried by the explosion of vesuvius was named for the the act of parading cattle that heracules had stolen after killing GERYON-aryan the g is silent e has an A sound.... the greek word POMPEI means to parade in triumph.. also there is a a funreal slab next to the uncovered stadium where it is said that heracules was burned alive after his skin fell off from a poisoned shirt..... he was at this time also known to wear womens clothing for some reason and also to go about speaking in unanswerable riddles.. this is all from the audio guide from the walking tour of pompei which i purchased as part of my walk about in the ruins of pompei in 2005 so i also saw the slab were he was supposedly burned alive and had lunch on it and pondered the ancient heros life amidst the ruins of long dead pompei —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.76.96 (talk) 02:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Merge

I have suggested merging Hercules with this article on the grounds that those are two names for the same hero and not two different heroes sharing a similar name like some people apparently think. Feel free to participate in Talk:Hercules. The article Hercules looks like a propagandist POV fork at the moment. It hardly has any information about Hercules except the things that were specific to Roman culture, implying that Hercules is a different hero to Hercules who had a different past (something which is obviously untrue). Maybe if Hercules got renamed to something like Hercules in Roman tradition then things would make more sense but right now they don't. Miskin (talk) 14:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I know this has been brought up before in the past, but I also noticed that the people opposing the merge were basing their arguments on subjective POV and original research. So please don't do the same mistake again, if you want to oppose the merge then do it by citing modern sources and that explicitely back up your views (not your personal interpretation on them or ancient sources). I have already provided one source for my view. Policies that have been taken into account here are WP:CITE, WP:NPOV and WP:NAME, editor consensus by vote comes last. Miskin (talk) 14:29, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Name meaning

Though we give the meaning of the name "glory through Hera", it is somewhat significant to mention that the name is a compound of Hera and the Greek word 'Kleos' (κλεος) (and thus wiki-link to the 'Kleos' article). The reason being that 'Kleos' itself is a fairly significant topic in Greek mythology, and there were other words / forms of glory in ancient Greece. I hope no one objects I added a few words to the opening sentence explaining this along with a source.Flygongengar (talk) 01:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The -kles is a common ending for Greek names and adjectives and I know that, at least in the case of Perikles, it's not derived from Kleos. But I'm not really sure about Herakles so if there's a source then I pass. Miskin (talk) 19:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

hercules is an old bastered that no one can get information from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.137.108.98 (talk) 01:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

the KLEOS part could be significant since it has the encypted K.hand cup palm also light with the leo.. the greeks were huge fans of encrypted names so it would figure with HE-iron RAK-LIGHTNING..LEOS ..THE SIGN OF LEO AND SYMBOL OF fascination THROUGH THE OPTIC NERVE which is the very shape of the sign itself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.76.96 (talk) 01:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Ancestry of Heracles

I was thinking about adding a "ancestry of Heracles" section, like so:

Perses

Alcaeus

Hipponome

Electryon

Anaxo

Sthenelus

Menippe

Mestor

Anaxo

Licymnius

Heracles

Three Children

Hyllus

Macaria

Others

It is far from complete, more wives have to be added for example. what do you think?

source (among others): Morford, M.P.O, Lenardon R.J.(2007)Classical Mythology. pp. 865 Oxford: Oxford University Press.

I see all the wives of Heracles. Other consorts could be added but this would completely clutter the tree. I do genealogical trees. In my opinion it's impractical to make a complete genealogical tree for Heracles. In the above tree Hebe looks like a sister of Heracles, not his fourth wife. The tree doesn't look too good.

ICE77 (talk) 06:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

This table projects into the margin, widening the margin and narrowing the main column of text, both here and in the article itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.170.69 (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

rude man

This article lacks a cross reference to the Cerne Abbas giant (rude man). WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 01:58, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Hylas: Inconsistencies

In section "Hylas" it recounts a story of Heracles' involvement with Hylas as a lover which ends in his kidnapping and abandonment. Hylas page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylas) recounts additional and alternative stories with Hylas as Heracles' son - why are these are omitted from this article? Additionally, later subsection "Male Lovers" includes the text "One of Heracles' male lovers, and one represented in ancient as well as modern art, is Hylas. Though it is of more recent vintage (dated to the third century) than that with Iolaus, it had themes of mentoring in the ways of a warrior and help finding a wife in the end." This is in direct contradiction to the earlier account of Hylas as being kidnapped and abandoned, unless we are to assume that can be considered "help finding a wife".

The information on Hylas should either be rendered consistently throughout the article or combined into one section inside the article. It is confusing to the reader to have differing presentations and versions of Hylas presented separately as though they are not related. Perhaps acknowledgement of contrasting versions should be added to the discussions of Hylas in the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.63.238.65 (talk) 04:18, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments and questions

1. "It is also said that when Heracles died he shed his mortal skin, which went down to the underworld and he went up to join the gods for being the greatest hero ever known."

Who wrote this?

3. "After some time, Omphale freed Heracles and married him. Some sources mention a son born to them who is variously named."

Which sources are these?

4. "Heracles, heartbroken, searched for a long time but Hylas had fallen in love with the nymphs and never showed up again. In other versions, he simply drowned. Either way, the Argo set sail without them."

Who wrote Hylas drowned?

5. "Before the Trojan War, Poseidon sent a sea monster to attack Troy."

Which type of monster was it?

6. Were multiple marriages in Greek mythology a normal practice? I don't remember reading anything of that sort. Megara gets killed by Hercules in some version. I'm not sure Omphale dies. Can anybody comment on this?

7. The punctuation for the last paragraph of the "Men" subsection does not look good and should be fixed. There are too many semicolons.

8. "Before he dies, Heracles throws Lichas into the sea, thinking he was the one who poisoned him (according to several versions, Lichas turns to stone, becoming a rock standing in the sea, named for him)."

Which versions are those?

9. "No one but Heracles' friend Philoctetes (Poeas in some versions) would light his funeral pyre (in an alternate version, it is Iolaus who lights the pyre)."

There are too many versions an zero sources.

10. Heracles was glorified as a hero but he was very much a ruthless slayer. It would be nice to add a section on this topic adding how ancient Greeks saw Heracles.

ICE77 (talk) 06:59, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Heracles not a hero? Hes just a ruthless slayer? Tell that to the billions of lives he saved. Everyone knows him as the greatest hero the world had ever known. The only reason some ancient Greeks viewed him in such a way was because Heracles was fearless and could not be controlled. Not to mention he was the candidate of his father Zeus to bring upon a great rein for the 12 Olympians instead of Hera's candidate King Eurystheus. In the contest of wills between Hera and Zeus over whose candidate would be hero, as to who would defeat the remaining creatures representing an old order. And to bring about the reign of the Twelve Olympians. Referring to Heracles in such a way just because he killed in the name of good is stupid.184.5.69.146 (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Iolaus?

The Iolaus page claims He often acted as Heracles' charioteer and companion. He was popularly regarded as Heracles's lover, and the shrine to him in Thebes was a place where male couples worshiped and made vows.[1]" supplying the citation :

^ Crompton, Louis, Homosexuality and Civilization, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2003, p. 123

I see that blocked user "Rose Marie Aragon" removed references to Iolaus from this page. (I'm a newb, I could be wrong about that).

Having a main section titled "Lovers" with exactly one sub-section,seems an odd thing. Perhaps the page should revert to pre Rose Marie? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.115.7.209 (talk) 23:15, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Done The very last username (talk) 23:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Etymology of the name

It says in this article that the name Heracles is formed from 'Hera' and 'kleos' (glory). As Hera is not the mother of Heracles, and does not have any major connection with him, especially that should be followed by the word glory, this seems unlikely; is there any basis for this claim? Is it not more likely to be formed from 'heros' (demi-god - Heracles is a demi-god, afterall) and 'kleos'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.255.206.115 (talk) 17:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Many works say the name was formed from 'Hera' and 'kleos' e.g. see this Google Books search, in particular note this work which says that this etymology is the "general consensus among scholars", citing Kretschmer, Dumezil and Nagy. But apparently not everyone agrees, see for example see this translation of Book I of Diodorus Siculus p. 30, note 47. Paul August ☎ 18:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Possible Historicity?

This is an extremely thorough and interesting article, but I noticed a conspicuous absence of any discussion, of the possibility of Herakles' actual existence. My reason for wondering if Herakles did actually exist, is that I came here from the article devoted to the Spartan Constitution, in which it says that Spartan kings claimed Herculean ancestry.

If a relevant expert is available, could the article possibly receive some information on this point? Thank you in advance.

60.240.17.168 (talk) 18:25, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

"Herakles" not "Heracles"

it is the greek name of the hero who's romanized name is Hercules. greek "kappa" is always transliterated into english with a "K" unless the pronunciation has transitioned into an "s", in which case kappa can be transliterated with "c", as in "Thucydides"

can we change the spelling of the title please? this is really bothering me.

Some works which use the spelling "Heracles": The Oxford Classical Dictionary, Grimal's The Dictionary of Classical Mythology, Tripp's Crowell's Handbook of Classical Mythology, Morford's Classical Mythology, Grave's The Greek Myths, Simpson's Gods & Heroes of the Greeks, Smith's A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, as well as the Encyclopedia Britannica, to name just a few. Paul August ☎ 00:26, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I would be inclined to agree with the original poster - Herakles is the form which is taught in most modern Greek history courses - Heracles and (worse) Hercules persist in sources such as Encyclopaedia Britannica due to their own archaic origins and the Victorian preference for Roman over Greek. As Wikipedea is considerably newer i would have thought it would not be bound by such constraints. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.149.97 (talk) 08:31, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I also agree that it should be changed to the proper name "Herakles". Leo 04:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm quite late to this discussion but I agree with the original poster. Can we please change the spelling to Herakles? Do we need to make this request in a formal manner? Ande B. (talk) 05:21, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Remarkable

"One remarkable commentary of Herodotus[53] on Heracles is that he lived 900 years before himself (c. 1300 BCE)."

That is pretty remarkable. To live before oneself is quite an achievement. Can I take it the 'himself' in this case is Herodotus? I'd just rephrase it without asking, but if you can trust anyone outside of Gallifrey to take a temporal paradox in their stride, it'd have to be this chap... :o) - Coldwind139 (talk) 21:07, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I've rewritten it. Paul August ☎ 23:26, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Can someone move/merge info from #Marriages into #Death?

The Heracles#Marriages section describes his death better than the Heracles#Death section does. There's also plenty of repetition between them.

Info from the former should be moved to the latter. (I'd do it but I don't know the subject at all.) Gronky (talk) 09:38, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Ancient source

From what ancient authors do we primarily know Heracles' adventures? In other words: is there a main work that concerns the Twelve Labours? I have a hard time finding it in this article. 83.83.1.229 (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2014

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Heracles homosexuality/bisexuality deleted. How can this be reversed?

I was browsing and noticed an unusual layout in this article. I noticed a subheading under Heracles Lovers for Women, and scrolled down for the Men subheading. It seems it was recently (1/19/2014) deleted by an editor MPA. When I clicked on MPA it came up empty.

I'm not familiar with Wiki etiquette but I assume this is not acceptable.

Example:

Prior Extraordinary strength, courage, ingenuity, and sexual prowess with both males and females were among his characteristic attributes.

Edited ver. Extraordinary strength, courage, ingenuity, and sexual prowess were among his characteristic attributes.

Didn't think this was a controversy. Thanks for your attention. 65.9.21.37 (talk) 02:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Done Removal reversed - Removing editor seems confused - on Wikipedia lack of primary sources is a good thing - and how do you get primary sources about a mythical being in any case? Arjayay (talk) 17:30, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Hercle

The first occurrence of Hercle in this article needs to be wikilinked viz Hercle. 101.163.17.98 (talk) 10:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. Paul August ☎ 19:51, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I think you should use the english timeline. i.e. BC and AC not BCE and CE.

The standard englidh notations are BC and AC and should tehrefore be the one used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.66.190 (talk) 21:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit request

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84.221.218.68 (talk) 12:58, 15 September 2016 (UTC)hello thank you for an amazing page on heracles- exceptional as an art history and art professor, i'd like to request the sidebox summary for heracles as reflecting more neutral, academically contemporary language as identifying him as "protector of humankind" instead of the archaic 'man'kind84.221.218.68 (talk) 12:58, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Heracles&action=edit&section=new#

Welcome to Wikipedia and thank you very much for your suggestion! I've done quite a bit of research on this, and that long bit about Heracles at the top of the infobox appears to be a quote found on hundreds, perhaps thousands of internet sites, some of which would be considered reliable sources by Wikipedia. In any case, the answer that is given is:

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. I think this is a case where there must be agreement among Wikipedia editors before such a change can be made. "Mankind" appears to be a much older term and describes both human genders in much the same way as the academically contemporary "humankind" does. My own personal opinion based upon several hours of research into this quotation is that it should not be changed; however, if other people besides us two come together with a consensus for change, I would be more than happy to abide by that. Paine ^u/c 08:09, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2016

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Please add the category below, because Heracles was born in Boeotia:

[[Category:Ancient Boeotia|Mythology]]

Thanks.

201.50.40.66 (talk) 20:21, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Paine ^u/c 22:47, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2016

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Please add [[Category:LGBT themes in mythology]] e [[Category:Pederastic heroes and deities]] to the page. Thanks. 201.50.33.134 (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Done Paine ^u/c 12:30, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

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Comments and questions II

I read with attention this article. I made a variety of improvements to text and layout. The article was interesting but it's not well organized. I don't like its structure and I helped to improve it but this article needs more work.

1. In my previous post dated 22 May 2011 (now archived) I wrote "Heracles was glorified as a hero but he was very much a ruthless slayer. It would be nice to add a section on this topic adding how ancient Greeks saw Heracles."

Somebody (184.5.69.146) wrote a response dated 13 June 2011:

"Heracles not a hero? Hes just a ruthless slayer? Tell that to the billions of lives he saved. Everyone knows him as the greatest hero the world had ever known. The only reason some ancient Greeks viewed him in such a way was because Heracles was fearless and could not be controlled. Not to mention he was the candidate of his father Zeus to bring upon a great rein for the 12 Olympians instead of Hera's candidate King Eurystheus. In the contest of wills between Hera and Zeus over whose candidate would be hero, as to who would defeat the remaining creatures representing an old order. And to bring about the reign of the Twelve Olympians. Referring to Heracles in such a way just because he killed in the name of good is stupid."

To that comment I reply with these stories:

a. "After completing these tasks, Heracles joined the Argonauts in a search for the Golden Fleece. He also fell in love with Princess Iole of Oechalia. King Eurytus of Oechalia promised his daughter, Iole, to whoever could beat his sons in an archery contest. Heracles won but Eurytus abandoned his promise. Heracles' advances were spurned by the king and his sons, except for one: Iole's brother Iphitus. Heracles killed the king and his sons—excluding Iphitus—and abducted Iole."

b. " Laomedon planned on sacrificing his daughter Hesione to Poseidon in the hope of appeasing him. Heracles happened to arrive (along with Telamon and Oicles) and agreed to kill the monster if Laomedon would give him the horses received from Zeus as compensation for Zeus' kidnapping Ganymede. Laomedon agreed. Heracles killed the monster, but Laomedon went back on his word. Accordingly, in a later expedition, Heracles and his followers attacked Troy and sacked it. Then they slew all Laomedon's sons present there save Podarces."

c. "Heracles learned music from Linus but killed him after Linus corrected his mistakes."

In response to the guy who thinks Heracles is not a savage (184.5.69.146), by all modern standards Heracles could be described as a psychopathic and violent subject regularly compelled to take lives without any consideration whatsoever. Heracles not only killed. He killed people and, this is a recurring theme, he also killed all of the sons. Basically, he was a serial killer with no remorse, something like a Terminator. It's ironic that Athena often protected heroes, including her brother Heracles but that she would not fight unless it was for a wise cause. Heracles seemed to lack the wisdom of Athena and rushed to killing as a result of his whim. It's clear that the person who commented (184.5.69.146) did not read enough about Heracles. Labeling somebody as stupid when you lack knowledge on a subject is in my opinion embarrassing.

2. This article should have an etymology section after the introduction. The first part of the word Heracles is explained but it's not clear what the second part means.

3. The article says "Queen Omphale of Lydia" and then says "Queen Omphale of Lydia" which is inconsistent.

4. The section on the wives of Hercules does not explain why Hercules married Deianira after Omphale. The details of his third wife sound like an unnecessary digression to me.

5. Under the "Lovers" section and under "Men" I read "Another myth is that of Iphitus". The sentence should be expanded to say more.

6. There seems to be inconsistency in terms of the number and the names of the sons of Hercules and Megara. Why are they listed simply as 4 like in the "Consorts and children"?

ICE77 (talk) 06:50, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

@ICE77: 1. It is not Wikipedia's place to assess whether Heracles was a great hero or a villainous murderer. Wikipedia is only supposed to summarize the stories about him and let the reader draw his or her own conclusions regarding Heracles's moral character. In any case, different Greek writers give very different portrayals of Heracles. In Aristophanes's Birds, Heracles is portrayed as a glutton who only cares about food. The Cynics, on the other hand, saw Heracles as a model for moral behavior, the epitome of virtue and personal excellence. --Katolophyromai (talk) 20:42, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

1. This is not a matter of assessing. My comment was clear: "it would be nice to add a section on this topic adding how ancient Greeks saw Heracles". This is about a perspective about the way the ancient Greeks saw Heracles. There are tons of articles on Greek mythology that present modern interpretations of Greek myths. This is about how people hundred of years ago saw Heracles. It's still relevant to the article.

ICE77 (talk) 05:45, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

@ICE77: I agree that it might be a good idea. The problem is, of course, the fact that they did not all see him in the same light. As I have pointed out above, different writers interpret Heracles in radically different ways. Antisthenes or Diogenes's views on him are very different from those of Euripides or Seneca. --Katolophyromai (talk) 06:06, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Change ten labors of hercules to twelve

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change ten labors of hercules to twelve 2605:E000:170D:80C8:0:0:0:2 (talk) 01:41, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: The ten labors became twelve, as mentioned in the article. Nihlus 02:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

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Inconsistency

This article says "since Heracles ruled over Tiryns in Argos at the same time that Eurystheus ruled over Mycenae".

The article on Eurystheus says "Eurystheus ... was king of Tiryns".

There is clearly an inconsistency.

ICE77 (talk) 04:00, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Edit request

There is a similarity of Heracles and Indra that might be added. http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/herakles/indra.htm

{edit semi-protected|Heracles|answered=yes}} Three edits (1, 2, 3) recently removed an entire section and some related points, claiming "no primary sources" - the text was, however, extremely well-referenced. Looking at that users previous edits, there is a history of removing similar sections from articles on what seems to be clear POV lines. Can an editor restore those sections? 51.6.190.81 (talk) 14:00, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Done MPA FYI, per above and my revert of your edits, you need to form a consensus before making large changes like this one. — IVORK _Discuss 22:28, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Birth of the Milky Way

"Fear of Hera's revenge led Alcmene to expose the infant Heracles, but he was taken up and brought to Hera by his half-sister Athena, who played an important role as protectress of heroes. Hera did not recognize Heracles and nursed him out of pity. Heracles suckled so strongly that he caused Hera pain, and she pushed him away. Her milk sprayed across the heavens and there formed the Milky Way. But with divine milk, Heracles had acquired supernatural powers. Athena brought the infant back to his mother, and he was subsequently raised by his parents."

What is the source for the above story about the birth of the Milky Way?

ICE77 (talk) 02:04, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Adding to the lead section

Much of Heracles’ story is defined by Hera’s hatred for him, as he is a symbol of Zues’ infidelity. The article already mentions Hera's disdain for him at length in the "Birth and Childhood" section. If anyone is interested in collaborating, I would like to help in supporting the interest of adding this to the lead section.

  "Heracles and Hera had a difficult relationship. In fact, the queen of the Gods tremendously hated the half-man known for his strength and hero status, and really went out her way to make his life as difficult as possible."  Source: https://classicalwisdom.com/heracles-and-hera/ 
  
  "Hera hated the great hero Heracles since he was the son of her husband Zeus and a mortal woman."  Source: http://www.mythweb.com/gods/hera.html

TrueNeutral14 (talk) 20:55, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Note, neither of the above are reliable sources. Paul August ☎ 22:54, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

@TrueNeutral14: Paul August is right that neither of the sources above are reliable, but, since the information is already in the body and the lead is supposed to be a summary of the body, then, assuming that the passage in the body is cited to a reliable source, no citation would be necessary for the lead. I do think some mention ought to be made in the lead of Hera's wrath against Heracles, but the version you have posted above is far too wordy for the lead. We would need something much more concise, probably as part of a longer passage about his Twelve Labors, which I notice are conspicuously absent from the lead, even though they are what he is generally best known for. --Katolophyromai (talk) 23:45, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

    Would you be open to collaborate with me on this to add those missing pieces of information from the lead in a less wordy way? If we were to collaborate, what would you suggest I work on? I've taken the liberty of drafting a new lead section with those pieces of information included. Could you help me make it a bit more concise if it's still on the wordy side?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TrueNeutral14/sandbox TrueNeutral14 (talk) 20:28, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2019

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Change brohter to brother in the Second Labour Woofwoof423 (talk) 02:07, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Done DannyS712 (talk) 03:16, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Junk sources

It's locked for editing, but in the early portions, there are junk sources (Fortean things like defunct "Atlantis Rising") and a children's book advancing the wholly discredited model of mythopoesis as exaggeration (the fish-story model). Looks bad. 24.117.1.12 (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Add a link to Walter_Burkert

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert

It's already in the references. ICE77 (talk) 02:33, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Birth of the Milky Way

"Fear of Hera's revenge led Alcmene to expose the infant Heracles, but he was taken up and brought to Hera by his half-sister Athena, who played an important role as protectress of heroes. Hera did not recognize Heracles and nursed him out of pity. Heracles suckled so strongly that he caused Hera pain, and she pushed him away. Her milk sprayed across the heavens and there formed the Milky Way. But with divine milk, Heracles had acquired supernatural powers. Athena brought the infant back to his mother, and he was subsequently raised by his parents.^[23]"

I finally see that this passage has a source which points to Diodorus Siculus' Bibliotheca Historica (Book IV, Ch. 9) which is a pretty lousy link because it requires you to scroll and find the text. Aside from suggesting to replace the link with Book IV 9.6 which is better because it's more specific, I would like to point out that nowhere in the Bibliotheca Historica by Diodorus Siculus the text tells the story of the birth of the Milky Way. It's either coming from another source or it's pure fabrication.

ICE77 (talk) 02:33, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I had an exchange with Paul August on the above and this is what emerged:

Eratosthenes, Epitome 44 (Hard, pp. 132–133) says:

"It is not possible for sons of Zeus to have any share in the honurs of the sky unless they had been suckled at Hera’s breast; and that is why Hermes, so they say, brought Heracles along after his birth and placed him at Hera’s breast, for him to be suckled at it; but when Hera became aware of it, she thrust him away, and the rest of her milk spilled out accordingly to make up the milky circle [i.e. the Milky Way]".

Hyginus, Astronomy 2.43 (Hard, p. 133) says:

"There is also a circle in the heavens which is white in colour, and which men have called the milky circle. Eratosthenes recounts in his Hermes that Hera unknowingly gave milk to the infant Hermes, but when she came to realize that he was Maia’s son, she pushed him away; and that is why a bright trail of spilled milk can be seen among the stars. Others have said that Heracles was placed at Hera’s breast while she was asleep, and she acted as has just been described when she woke up. Or according to other authors, Heracles was so greedy that he sucked in so much milk he could not keep it in his mouth, and what spilled out from his mouth is shown in this circle".

Therefore, the passage in the "Birth and childhood" section should not point to Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca historica, Book IV 9.6 but to Eratosthenes, Epitome 44 and Hyginus, Astronomy 2.43. Also, there is no direct indication that Hera felt "nursed him out of pity" so that information should be associated to a reference or disappear.

ICE77 (talk) 07:05, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Different dads

On the "Heracles" page his father is Zeus, which is correct. On the "Hercules" page, it says his father is Jupiter which is incorrect. I only joined wiki so i could point this out and i can't edit yet. Someone please sort this! Thank you :) Lizzyrob99 (talk) 05:02, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Actually it is correct, Hercules is the Roman character based on Heracles and Jupiter was the roman version of Zeus, Heracles is the original greek character. 82.17.221.173 (talk) 21:28, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2021

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Under the "Lovers" section and then "Marriages", the first two bullet points both discuss Megara, his first wife, and essentially provide the same information. I propose that the two bullets be combined into the following bullet point:

"Heracles waged a victorious war against the kingdom of Orchomenus in Boeotia and married his first wife Megara, daughter of Creon, king of Thebes. But he killed their children in a fit of madness sent by Hera and, consequently, was obliged to become the servant of Eurystheus. According to Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.4.12) Megara was unharmed. According to Hyginus (Fabulae, 32), Heracles also killed Megara." 2601:8C0:4300:6C20:3D74:A30F:147B:2AE0 (talk) 03:26, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Done Thanks. Paul August ☎ 11:31, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Male lovers

There is a reference tag on the paragraph. Searching for sources i found this: [1] - it is on the nature of Heracles’ νόσος (mosos = disease), caused by Deianira's poisonous garment that causes his consequent feminization, the author attempting to diagnose the medical condition. He comes up with MALE UTERINE DISPLACEMENT. However, he doesn't relate any of this to Hercules growing attraction to men. In case other authors had considered this, i think it should be in the article. All the best Wikirictor^{talk • contribs} 01:50, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2021

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DELETE "Based on commonalities in the legends of Heracles and Odysseus, author Steven Sora suggested that they were both based on the same historical person, who made his mark prior to recorded history.^[1]"

It is original research, which is against the rules, and it is also incorrect. Odysseus could not have possibly been Heracles because both individuals are separately referenced in both the Iliad and the Odyssey, and those are the primary sources for Odysseus' life. Homer writes that Heracles' descendants fought in the Trojan war. Heracles is not Odysseus. Please delete the line as it appears to be written for the sole purpose of plugging an author. Gargoyle.grotesque (talk) 22:18, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:26, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

References

^ Kenyon, Douglas J. (January–February 2018). "[no title cited]". Atlantis Rising Magazine. Vol. 127.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2018 and 18 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mcnamaraer.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Change proposal

Under sections 4.11 "Other Adventures" and 4.13 "Christian Chronology," suggest either removing links OR replacing links to "Linus_(mythology)" with links to "Linus_of_Thrace," as Linus of Thrace is the figure being referenced in both passages, and is already linked in section 4.2 "Youth." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.245.155.36 (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Translate

Ἡρακλῆς, lit. "glory/fame of Hera"), born Alcaeus (Ἀλκαῖος, Alkaios) or Alcides (Ἀλκείδης, Alkeidēs), 118.210.126.219 (talk) 10:33, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that is the start of the article. What's your point? Furius (talk) 19:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Typo

In the 10th labor it says "Libyan dessert". Can someone change it to "desert"? The article is locked for editing.

I've fixed this, thanks for pointing this out. Paul August ☎ 15:56, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Pyra of Herakles on MtOeta

The sanctuary Pyra of Herakles on MtOeta was reexcavated, after N.Pappadakis (1919-2022) (see: - Pantos A.Pantos, Αναδιφώντας τα αρχεία “Πυρά Ηρακλέους στην Οίτη. Παλιές και νέες ανασκαφές (1988-1992)”, in: Μαρία-Φωτεινή Παπακωνσταντίνου - Χαράλαμπος Κριτζάς - Ιωάννης Π. Τουράτσογλου (επιμ.), Πύρρα. Μελέτες για την αρχαιολογία στην Κεντρική Ελλάδα προς τιμήν της Φανουρίας Δακορώνια, τομ. Β΄ Ιστορικοί χρόνοι, 2018 (ΣΗΜΑ Εκδοτική, ISBN: 978-960-99349-9-2 / Πύρρα Β´: 978-960-99349-8-5), σ.303-320 [& e-publication: academia edu] 2A02:587:5F7A:AB00:447E:D099:E05E:A4C7 (talk) 15:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2023

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CHANGE: “…referred to as the Pillars of Hercules/ Heracles, owing to the story that he …”

TO: “… referred to as the Pillars of Melquart (the Phoenician God on whom Greeks based Heracles), then later called the Pillars of Heracles-Melquart, then Pillars of Hercules, owing to the story that he …”

ALSO ADD SENTENCE TO THIS SECTION: “The Pillars are also proximate to the 3 remaining Temples of Melquart near the Phoenician-founded city of Gades (Cadiz, Spain).

SOURCE: https://www.worldhistory.org/Melqart/ 174.48.231.224 (talk) 01:02, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Not done: but added note to § cult. Your source suggests that Heracles was syncretised with Melquart, not based on him, and only speculates about the pillars. small jars tc 14:22, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

incorrect link

Under lovers, the hyperlink for aphra goes to the genus of moths, this should be changed to the person in the mythology AD Vortigern (talk) 13:56, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Link removed, since no such page for the mythological figure seems to exist. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

[1] Kenyon, Douglas J. (January–February 2018). "[no title cited]". Atlantis Rising Magazine. Vol. 127.

[1]