Talk:Henryk Siemiradzki

Polish-Russian painter?

I has been stated that Siemiradzki is a Polish-Russian painter (by Ghirlandajo), perhaps judgin by his birthplace near Kharkov and studies in St Petersburg. However there appears to be little Russian about him upon closer inspection, apart from the fact that Poland was part of the Russian empire at the time. While he clearly must have hade Russian connections from studying in St Petersburg for 6 years, his Italian connections appear even more prominent since much of his work was created in Rome.

Also, while he was born much further east near Kharkov, this simply appears to have been where his Polish family was staying at the time (temporary residence elsewhere in the empire was common among szlachta families), judging by the fact that he had an estate near Czestochowa, deep inside Poland. Deuar 16:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I have an impression that it is indeed an invention of Ghirlandajo as there was indeed little Russian about Siemiradzki. It's nice that someone would like to get a share of his fame for himself, but I doubt wikipedia is the best place for that. And if being born in the Russian empire is enough to become a Russian, then most certainly so was Piłsudski... Does it mean that he was a Russian as well? //Halibutt 12:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who calls a third-rate academist painter "famous" is so ignorant that I shall not waste my time on arguing with him. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

This last remark is quite hot-headed and needless frankly.

I live in a street named by Siemiradzki:) Many lands of today's Ukraine and Belarus used to be part of Poland. Polish nobility simply kept living in the place where their ancestors had lived before for hundreds of years sometimes despite the fact that the lands were annexed by Russia. That's why there's absolutely nothing strange about a Polish noble living near Kharkow. Dawidbernard 18:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that at the time he was born, Poland did not exist as an independent country so it is nothing unusual to have Poles being born in the Russian Empire.

Norum (talk) 13:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

If we discuss if he was Polish-Russian, I think its even more suitable to discuss if he was Polish-Ukrainian painter... As he was born and lived his young years in Ukraine. Next question is possibly, if the family roots were pure polish, or if they were of ukrainian roots, and made polish nobility - which was common enough./StefanZ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.208.73.140 (talk) 14:41, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

At the time it was proper Russia. His father was even an officer in Russian army if I remember correctly. Since his native languages were both Polish and Russian, culturally he was also both Polish and Russian, after all his citizenship, aka nationality was Russian as well. Guest2022 (talk) 01:12, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

So to say, he was born and lived his young years in Russia and not in Ukraine. At the time town of Chuguev and town of Kharkov were Russian, were part of Russia proper. His ethnicity was Polish 100%, but dozens of other basic characteristics were Russian. Regarding Piłsudski, while he considered being Polish, to the best of my knowledge, his mother was Polish, Belarusian, and Lithuanian. Guest2022 (talk) 01:35, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

It is important while considering nationality look at the native language, culture,place of birth and citizenship as a second meaning of nationality is citizenship. He belonged to the nation of Russia being at the same time and predominantly Polish. Guest2022 (talk) 01:40, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

As an example, we can look at the article about Max Factor: Maksymilian Faktorowicz(September 15, 1877 – August 30, 1938),[2][3][4] also known as Max Factor Sr., was a Polish-American[1] businessman, beautician, entrepreneur and inventor.

As you can see,he is listed as Polish-American. Here we suddenly accept dualistic approach? What is even more exciting, he was not even Polish, he was of Jewish and partially Polish descent, he was born in Russian Empire, and he worked in Russia proper in his area of expertise. Essentially, he was another Jewish talent from Russian Empire, who moved to USA. However, he listed as being Polish-American because place of his birth is part of Poland today, and his company was established in USA. I do agree with the fact that he is Polish-American beautician, but he is Russian beautician as well. He worked as a beautician and as a businessman in Russia. He was shaped there. Why Siemiradzki is not a Polish-Russian-Italian painter then? Siemiradzki produced most of his paintings in Italy. Max Factor established his company in USA. There was little of Polish in Max Factor, as he was predominantly Jewish, his native language was Yiddish, and he worked in Russia proper. But here we at least accept the "-American" part.

Then why we so much against the acknowledging that Siemiradzki was Polish, Russian, and like Max Factor, not American, but Italian painter? Polish-Russian-Italian painter.

Guest2022 (talk) 08:33, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Moreover, if Max Factor is listed as Polish-American because of his place of birth is Poland (in Russian Empire) and the country where he worked most of his life is USA, then Siemiradzki has to follow the same logic as being listed Russian-Italian. In both cases we would ignore the ethnicity and just accept place of birth and the longest and the most important years of activity.

If we want to call Siemiradzki as Polish only because of his ethnicity and his love to Poland, which I can only appriciate and support,then we should call Max Factor as not the Polish-American and instead simply the Israeli. Let's either ignore place of birth and years of activity and instead take into consideration only the ethnicities and the corresponding countries, which would be founded in future. Guest2022 (talk) 09:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I would like to follow the logic, applied to the famous Max Factor and categorize Siemiradzki as Russian-Italian painter of Polish descent. The change will not be repeat previous updates and will be aligned with other articles. Guest2022 (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, you explain everything with your personal opinion that is neither neutral nor truly correct. The definition "Russian-born Polish" would be much more suitable; he was educated in what was then Russia but his work in Russia is limited. Secondly, you don't provide sources, you engage in disruptive editing and edit warring as well as ignoring calls for an RfC. You impose edits without consensus which suggests that your contribution is vandalism. Merangs (talk) 19:18, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Everybody expresses their opinions, it's freedom. I believe my opinion is closer to the reality than for example Mergans opinion. You can compare this article with article about Max Factor. What sources do we want? The painter was born was educated and worked in Russia proper, it's in the very article. Then he worked on Italy. It makes him Russian and Italian painter. Ethnically he was Polish. Guest2022 (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

If Max Factor according to the article was Polish and American beautician and businessmen being born Jewish then Siemiradzki was Russian and Italian painter being born Polish. Guest2022 (talk) 17:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

And my opinion is very-very neutral, this is the point. Guest2022 (talk) 17:37, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I do believe that calling Siemiradzki just Polish painter and ignoring his Russian and Italian qualities is neither true nor neutral. Guest2022 (talk) 17:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Actually, I agree with the definitisn Guest2022 (talk) 17:47, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, the previous entry was entered in error. Actually, I agree with the definition of Russian-born Polish. Siemiradzki loved Poland and was a real hero in this sense. Guest2022 (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2022 (UTC)