Talk:Henry Lidgbird Ball

Clarity needed

The piece of the lead section discussion his promotion and retirement is confusing - was he promoted in title after his retirement, or is his retirement or promotion date wrong? The Real Serena Joy^Talk 23:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

The wording is a little iffy and the citation in the main text for this part doesn't actually say anything about his retirement, being that the citation is for a compilation of ship histories. What one assumes, and would actually make sense here, is that Ball went on half pay for the final time in 1813, but because promotion to flag rank was by seniority, he was made a rear-admiral of the blue in the following year anyway. Note that none of this is my work, I've just made a lot of comments about it previously! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Death and Legacy

I've changed Balls Head Bay to Balls Point. It looked wrong because, if Balls Head Bay was named after him, that would have to be because Balls Head was. ADB says Balls Point, although wrongly locating it in Sydney Harbour (it's across Fishermans Bay from Maianbar). Also, I've always assumed that Balls Head (which actually is in Sydney Harbour) is so called owing to its (ahem) configuration. Or has ADB confused Balls Point with Balls Head? But that would mean that Balls Head, an important promontory, was named after a mere lieutenant, whereas Balls Point is not particularly significant. Wikiain (talk) 22:44, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

After further thought, I've preferred Balls Head, supposing that the ADB has simply mistaken Point for Head. And it seems obvious that Balls Head Bay is so named since it is beside Balls Head. That Ball was a lieutenant does not seem to be a problem, since Dawes Point on Sydney Harbour is named after Lt William Dawes. As to the (er) configuration matter, perhaps the name was originally written "Ball's Head" and pronounced with a chuckle. Sydney place name policy today is to omit apostrophes. Wikiain (talk) 23:51, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Colonial Service

@Knightmare 3112: A question: In the final paragraph in the Colonial Service Section, it says Ball was ordered "...bring Hunter and the crew of the Sirius back from Norfolk Island." Back to where? Sidney? Thanks. Also same section. Do we know what Ball's illness was? Was he cured? He obviously went back on active naval service. Almost finished copy editing. Cleveland Todd (talk) 19:02, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Cleveland Todd: Yeah he was to bring them back to Sydney, as they lost there ship, they were getting sent back to England for a court martial. No it’s never stated what the illness is, but it was common for Europeans to get fever in Batavia. --Knightmare 3112 (talk) 19:16, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Knightmare 3112:Thanks, I'll finish the copy edit tomorrow. Cleveland Todd (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Article comments

Per a request from @Knightmare 3112: I am leaving some comments on the article here. I would note that I am not the best copy editor, and suggest that this article is run through the Guild of Copy Editors as well. This is just a brief read-through of the article, and I do not claim to have found all issues. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:48, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

• Please check this for possible copyright violation issues
• Precise dates should be given for dates of birth and death in lede where possible
• The Dunmore reference main link goes to a broken page
• The references are a strange combination of SFN and in-text forms, making for confusing reading. Really only one type should be used.
• Every piece of "further reading" is actually cited in the text, and are thus references in their own rights
• Ensure references, such as Arthur Phillips, have author-links where possible
• There are several uncited sections: last section of Early life, first section of Personal life, final section of Death and legacy
• File:HenryLidgbirdBall.jpg needs a US PD tag
• The external link image is in the article and thus is unnecessary here
• The Dunmore source cites the entirety of the article. References need to be given individual page numbers (I wanted to check whether the source provided more details for Ball's early service, e.g. the dates involved, but the lack of citations means I can't check without reading the entire article, which I don't really have time to do!)
• Ranks when not being using in conjunction with a name, e.g. "commissioned a Lieutenant", should not be capitalised
• Ships when first introduced should be preceded by their type, e.g. "the 36-gun frigate HMS Venus" or "the frigate HMS Venus".
• Don't continually call Ball by his rank, e.g. "Lieutenant Ball"; his surname is enough, you've told us what rank he is
• "the ships of the First Fleet" it would be useful to have a better explanation of what the First Fleet was here
• "Supply's armament had been increased..." this is all good, but we don't know what the original armament was to compare it to!
• Link carronades
• "Under the command of Lieutenant William Dawes"
• Choose how ships will be named and stick with it. E.g. will it be "Supply" or "the Supply"?
• "With Ball as captain" we already know he's the captain!
• "The Supply had orders to create a penal colony" were these just the orders of Supply or the whole fleet?
• Santa Cruz de Tenerife should be one link, not two
• You can start calling Rio de Janeiro "Rio" after the first instance, but don't then go back to fully naming it Rio de Janeiro again
• "Ball learned the navigational and physical difficulties" I don't think "learned" is the word you're looking for here
• "but got ashore on 6 March" Just him? Assume King went ashore too at least!
• "On the return voyage..." this sentence needs dating
• "On 6 May 1788" No need to repeat a year if you're already introduced it, the month and day will do until a new year comes around again
• "Supply left Port Jackson" Where is Port Jackson?
• "learn there language" their
• "on 31 December 1788" Again, repetition of the year is unneeded
• "commanded two boats" took two boats would be more appropriate
• "where they captured Arabanoo" a little more context on the man would be helpful
• "Sydney Cove" Where?
• The correct rank link for John Hunter should be post-captain rather than captain (naval)
• "Captain Hunter" No need to repeat his rank
• "Lieutenant Philip Gidley King" ibid
• "on 17 April 1790" year repetition
• "whom was" who was
• "despatches" dispatches
• "so on 17 April 1790 Supply sailed..." this suggests that the sailing of Supply is directly related to Sirius's inability to make the voyage to Canton, but why this is so is not made clear
• Governor's
• "Ball returned to Port Jackson on 18 October"
• "Sailing the 25 November 1791" > "Sailing on 25 November"
• The aforementioned sentence reads like an itinerary and should be rewritten
• "the colonies of Australia" the colonies have not been introduced as such before this point
• semi colon rather than comma at end of aforementioned quote
• "had applied for the governorship, but..."
• governor doesn't need to be capitalised here
• I won't keep repeating these points, but don't capitalise ranks not in use as titles, and make sure to introduce types of ships
• "at The Downs" > "in the Downs"
• "Transferred to HMS Flora" this sentence and the next are very stilted and does not flow well in the narrative.
• "the Leeward Islands Station"
• "intentions"
• "Rear-Admiral Christian's" more rank repetition
• "Lieutenant-General Sir Ralph Abercromby's"
• "to invade St Lucia" semi colon
• "In March 1797" There's quite a skip in time here, suggest explaining the gap if possible
• "sailed for the Cape of Good Hope" From where?
• Ensure you're linking words like cutter and schooner
• "involved in the capture of six vessels" some more precise dates would be useful - were they all with Hornet?
• "it's" its
• "its pursuer" Ships are generally thought of as female, e.g. she and her
• "she turned"
• Link broadside
• Suggest replacing "midday" with 12:00, or a variant of that
• "Returning to the Cape..."
• Aforementioned sentence is janky and needs rewriting
• "to" > "too"
• "On 9 July 1799" year repetition
• Rear-Admiral Rainier's name has been purposefully misspelled as "Rainer" for some reason
• "in the Red Sea"
• Again, it's Rainier not Rainer, and more instances of unneeded rank repetition
• Ensure you write numbers in the same way throughout the article; don't switch between "five" and "5" for example
• "in 1801" When in the year?
• "Ball returns to Britain" returned. Also make sure to note when he's leaving his commands as well as when he's joining them
• "1805 became" > "In 1805 he became"; also needs a more precise date
• "captured four Prussian vessels" Assume they weren't still in the Nore when this happened, but the location is not made obvious
• "Early April 1809, Ball as commander of HMS Gibraltar, joins the fleet" Needs rewording, this reads like a timeline and is a little janky on top of that
• Master's mate should be capitalised and linked in this instance
• "Gambier's fleet then tried to capture or destroy..." This needs to be more precisely related to Ball and Gibraltar for it to be notable here
• "On 3 August 1809" Year repetition
• "Admiral Lord Gambier" No need to repeat his titles, "Gambier" is fine; same with "Captain Lord Cochrane"
• Battle of the Basque Roads should have already been linked when it was first described, rather than here at the court martial
• "In April 1812 Ball became"
• "of off Texel" > "off of Texel"
• "onto half-pay" > "on half-pay"
• Make sure you're noting why Ball's changes in command take place, e.g. he leaves Christian VII because the ship gets turned into a lazarette, per Winfield
• Link flag rank, don't capitalise rear-admiral of the blue
• "at Norfolk Island" > "on Norfolk Island"?
• "Anne Maria was baptised on"
• "on 24 July 1810"
• The lede claims that he spent his retirement in Surrey, but this doesn't seem to be mentioned in the main text.
• Ball died"
• "in the family vault of his wife, Anne Georgianna Henrietta Johnston." > "in the family vault of his second wife."
• Death and legacy should be turned into a coherent paragraph rather than four single line sentences.
• The naming of Ball's Pyramid and Mount Lidgbird having already been included in the article; the other places named here might work better in the Colonial service section as well
• "Ball appears as a character..." This is trivia

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Henry Lidgbird Ball/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 14:40, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:40, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately tagged; sources are reliable. I'm not a subject matter expert but referring to the very useful previous GA review everything seems to have been addressed that was listed.

• You use "it" for Daedalus in the lead; I thought "she" was standard usage.
• The previous GA reviewer said "this is not an exhaustive list"; were you able to find additional material beyond what they listed?

I've made a few minor copyedits; please check I didn't screw anything up. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:19, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Also pinging Pickersgill-Cunliffe, the original GA reviewer, in case they wish to comment. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:55, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, admittedly haven't kept up with this article but will stick my oar in nonetheless. I added a list of comments that I think have been acted on, but am not totally sure having not had this article watchlisted. A brief skim through brings up uncited sentences beginning "With Rowley appointed in April 1807..." and "Neither marriage...", and there might still be some optimistic use of Winfield, e.g. ref. #29 shouldn't be able to provide the initial returning to Britain detail. Looks to be quite a few ship names that could do with red links too. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:19, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Knightmare 3112, just checking to see if you're planning to work on this article? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 08:41, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I’m working on it Knightmare 3112 (talk) 06:53, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Knightmare 3112, are you still planning to work on this? No problem if you're planning to get back to it soon. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:09, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I’ve edited the issues that you’ve brought up already Knightmare 3112 (talk) 11:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, I'll take another look and add spotchecks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:55, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm going back through Pickersgill-Cunliffe's old comments to see what is outstanding. Pinging Pickersgill-Cunliffe: I have a question or two about your comments below -- I hope you don't mind a ping, as I'm not expert in this topic.

• "Neither marriage produced any children" is uncited.
• I said above that the images were appropriately tagged, but looking through Pickersgill-Cunliffe's comments I see they correctly point out that File:HenryLidgbirdBall.jpg needs a US PD tag.
• P-C's comment was 'Ships when first introduced should be preceded by their type, e.g. "the 36-gun frigate HMS Venus" or "the frigate HMS Venus".' This has not been done throughout. I wouldn't have thought it universally necessary but perhaps Pickersgill-Cunliffe can comment on that?
  • I won't die on my hill for the inclusion, but it is generally expected that upon first mention a ship is at least vaguely described. With the Royal Navy operating so many warships of different types and sizes, "HMS" alone doesn't tell us much. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:02, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
• Choose how ships will be named and stick with it. E.g. will it be "Supply" or "the Supply"? -- this is still not consistent throughout; e.g. "On 5 March 1790 the Sirius and Supply". You can find these in the edit window by searching for "the ''".
• "On the return voyage..." this sentence needs dating -- not addressed
• '"where they captured Arabanoo" a little more context on the man would be helpful' -- not addressed
• '"In March 1797" There's quite a skip in time here, suggest explaining the gap if possible' -- not addressed but perhaps this is because the sources don't cover it.
• '"its pursuer" Ships are generally thought of as female, e.g. she and her' -- still an issue; e.g. "its original", "its prize".
• 'make sure to note when he's leaving his commands as well as when he's joining them' -- I don't see any issues here but this might be one for more expert eyes.
• '"captured four Prussian vessels" Assume they weren't still in the Nore when this happened, but the location is not made obvious' -- not addressed
• 'Make sure you're noting why Ball's changes in command take place, e.g. he leaves Christian VII because the ship gets turned into a lazarette, per Winfield' -- not addressed, at least not in this case
• 'there might still be some optimistic use of Winfield, e.g. ref. #29 shouldn't be able to provide the initial returning to Britain detail' -- I can't tell if this has been addressed.

That's everything from the earlier list. One additional comment so far:

• "In early April 1809 Ball was commander of": should this be "was made commander"?

Spotchecks -- there's not much I can check as I don't have most of the sources, but I can check a few uses of Parsons:

• "In October 1787, Ball was placed in command of the armed tender HMS Supply as part of the naval escort for the ships of the First Fleet, which was a fleet of ships that transported convicts to start the first European colony in Australia. Supply's armament was increased in 1786 from its original four small 3-pounder cannons and six 1⁄2-pounder swivel guns to include four additional twelve-pounder carronades. The crew was also increased to a total of 55. Additionally, a detachment of 16 marines from the New South Wales Marine Corps, under the command of Lieutenant William Dawes, was embarked. Supply as part of the First Fleet had orders to create a penal colony in Botany Bay, New South Wales." I don't see mention of the October 1787 date in Parsons, or the description of the First Fleet's purpose, or Supply's armament, or in fact most of this.
• "On 14 February Ball on Supply sailed with Lieutenant Philip Gidley King, who was to establish a subordinate settlement on Norfolk Island. Ball discovered navigational and physical difficulties in approaching the island – challenges which were to affect future settlement there – but he managed to bring both people and supplies ashore by 6 March." Again most of this is not in Parsons.
• "In January 1808 it was noted that Ball applied for the governorship of New South Wales, but the request was turned down as no change in governor was intended at that point." Verified.

Can you check the other uses of Parsons and let me know when all the citations are fixed? Pickersgill-Cunliffe, if you're able to check any of the other sources that would be very helpful. -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Happy to check the Winfield, Bonner-Smith, and Naval Chronicle, assuming those are the ones you're least likely to have access to. When quoting I'll emphasise in bold any parts not found in the source.

The Winfield 2007 reference checks out. Winfield 2005 below:

• "With his health recovered, he returned to duty in December 1793 and was assigned command of the sloop HMS Fury, joining Rear-Admiral John MacBride's squadron in the Downs." (Ref. #18)
• Ref. #19 is accurate but for some reason doesn't include that Ball then sailed Flora to serve in the Mediterranean
• "On 9 July, Daedalus sailed for the East Indies Station, joining the fleet of Rear-Admiral Peter Rainier" (Ref. #21)
• "With the Peace of Amiens, 25 March 1802, Ball returned to Britain" This makes the assumption that Ball was still in command of Trident, but Winfield notes three other captains taking command after Ball but before the end of 1802
• "With the death of Captain Adrian Renou in January 1805, Ball was appointed flag captain to Rear-Admiral Bartholomew Rowley in the 64-gun third rate ship of the line HMS Zealand as a guardship at the Nore." (Ref. #29)
• "In early April 1809 Ball was commander of the 80-gun third rate ship of the line HMS Gibraltar. Gibraltar joined the fleet of Admiral Lord Gambier in blockading the French at Battle of the Basque Roads." (Ref. #34) Should be "was made commander" and "at the Battle of the Basque Roads", too. Note that the source also has Ball leaving Gibraltar around June 1809
• "In April 1812 Ball became flag captain to Rear-Admiral Philip Charles Durham in the 80-gun HMS Christian VII off Texel, until December 1813, with Christian VII being removed from active service. Ball then went on half-pay in semi-retirement." (Ref. #39)

Bonner-Smith:

• "On 23 April 1778 Ball was commissioned a lieutenant." My (updated) Bonner-Smith has the date as 23 August. The rest of the citations check out

Naval Chronicle:

• "Anne Maria married Joseph Freeman Rattenbury, of Gray's Inn, on 24 July 1810." Source also spells it Ruttenbury. The other uses of the Naval Chronicle check out

If there are any other sources you'd like me to check do say. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

That's plenty; thank you very much. Once Knightmare 3112 has fixed these I might ask you to take another look if that's OK. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:55, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Knightmare 3112, a reminder. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:51, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Failing this for inactivity; there have been no edits to the article in three weeks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Did Ball Circumnavigate Australia before Matthew Flinders?

Just been reading 1788 by Watkin Tench (Edited by Tim Flannery). Tench was a Captain of Marines who arrived on the First Fleet in 1788. The book contains the sentence "Captain Ball...is the first person who ever circumnavigated the continent of New Holland". This was seemingly achieved in a journey that he made that involved travelling to Batavia for supplies in 1790. This is 11 years before Matthew Finders circumnavigated the continent. Unfortunately there is no more detail provided of that "achievement". Any thoughts? HiLo48 (talk) 09:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Technically lots of people circumnavigated Australia, including Tasman and Cook, the difference is that Flinders followed and mapped the coastlines. Knightmare 3112 (talk) 16:56, 22 September 2023 (UTC)