Talk:Hell Gate Bridge

More than just an arch

All the images "may imply" that the Hell Gate Bridge is this pretty arch, but what about the portion of the bridge that runs on the viaduct up to the Bronx? -HiFiGuy 17:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Strongest Bridge

The Hell Gate Bridge may indeed be the worlds strongest ( however that may be defined ) steel arch bridge. The inapposite comment about the Sydney Harbour Bridge being modified due to the 2001 terrorist attacks in New York would appear to be unfounded. The Sydney Harbour Bridge has had no significant structural modification since 2 of the four railroad tracks were removed in 1957 and replaced by three additional road lanes ( for a total of 8 ). The only aspect of the Sydney Harbour Bridge which has been "reinforced" since 2001 is an increase in the number of Arab security guards employed to obstruct and annoy pedestrians and cyclists. Merkanmich 11:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The two removed tramlines were replaced by two road lanes, not three. The additional road lane was created by remarking the 5 original road lanes, into 6 narrower road lanes occupying the same space.Eregli bob (talk) 07:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment about strongest steel arch bridge removed as the Sydney harbour bridge is quoted as being the strongest steel arch bridge in the world (ref: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=heritage.show&id=4301067). The bridge has never been structurally reinforced since it's opening in 1932. It is speculated by this writer that the bridge is actually stronger than it needs to be under normal conditions, since the removal of two of the original four rail lines in the late 1950s. Two of the rail lines were replaced by two additional roadway lanes. Cityrail operates ~50000kg cars in 8 car sets giving each empty train a tare mass of approx. 400 tonnes. With two rail lines it would then be possible for a maximum empty loading of 800 tonnes, which equates to approximately 800 cars. Over two laneways of 1.6 km each, that would equate to 0.25 motorcars per meter of laneway, which is not a realistic traffic load unless traffic is near stationary. As such, there has been no need to re-inforce the bridge.

Additionally, any re-inforcements to the bridge would not make any appreciable impact to fending off a terrorist attack which would probably involve either a bomb attack or crashing an aircraft into the bridge.

Dick.clements 01:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

What's in a name?

Why is it called Hell Gate bridge? --209.244.30.253 (talk) 07:41, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Because the body of water that it spans is called Hell Gate. My understanding is that this is Dutch (the area first being explored by the Dutch) for "Bright Passage", but also intended as a pun ("hel" being Dutch for Hell) because the channel is narrow and rocky with strong currents, and was very difficult to navigate in the days before motorized boats. -- Avocado (talk) 14:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I've linked the name in this article to the Hell Gate article 'cause 209.244.30.253 can't be the only one who'd like to know. - Denimadept (talk) 15:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, it was already linked in the last sentence of the first para: there's not much we can do if people won't read a sentence or two and follow the links. The link in the name always feels awkward to me, but it's not worth edit-warring over, so I'll let you decide whether it needs to stay. -- Avocado (talk) 13:30, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

That, sir, is a heck of a way to argue. Facts? Who ever heard of arguing with facts?? - Denimadept (talk) 15:50, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

What are these "facts" of which you speak? ;-) -- Avocado (talk) 15:17, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Doubts about the photo: "The approach to Hell Gate bridge under construction circa 1915"

Have a close look at the photo "The approach to Hell Gate bridge under construction circa 1915":

Look especially at the towers on either side of the stretch of water to be crossed: they look nothing like the towers of the actual Hell Gate Bridge.

Look also at the curve of the approach: the curve is to the right; the curve of the approach to the north side of the actual bridge is to the left. The approach on the southern side is straight.

Look closer still at the photo. Especially at the collection of towers and structures in the area of the water crossing. The construction style appears to be nothing like the construction style shown in the photo "Hell Gate bridge under construction circa 1915", a photo which really does appear to depict the Hell Gate Bridge under construction. Indeed the bridge shown in "The approach to Hell Gate bridge under construction circa 1915" appears to be a bridge with 3 intermediate supporting arches and 4 spans. In other words, nothing like the actual single span bridge.

Curiously the source of both photos is given as: "Popular Mechanics" Magazine November 1915. Perhaps someone with access to old editions of "Popular Mechanics" could check this source information with a copy of the original magazine.

A couple of things may have happened:

• the magazine may simply have made a mistake and published the wrong photo in association with the caption "The approach to Hell Gate bridge under construction circa 1915". An original caption, which appears to have been embedded in the photo, seems to have been eliminated during some past clipping operation.
• the photo may be a horizontally flipped photo of an earlier design for the bridge which was abandoned, demolished, and replaced with the current structure (a bit far fetched I admit).

Both the bridge pillars and the approach pillars in the photo are so distinctive that it must be easy to identify the real location and name of the bridge in the photo. It is a fascinating photo, and deserves to find its real home.

As to where that real home might be: I would suggest that the photo shows a rail bridge in some other major east coast US city. It could of course be a photo of a bridge anywhere in the world, but the appearance of the approach arches in both photos cited above is so similar that it would seem that both bridges were built around the same time, and in the USA.

Cricobr (talk) 14:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

After a quick look at a series of candidate cities with Wikimapia I appear to have resolved the problem myself!

When I found that none of the candidate cities had any comparable bridge, I suddenly thought of the answer to the conundrum...

Strictly speaking the photo "The approach to Hell Gate bridge under construction circa 1915" DOES show the APPROACH to the Hell Gate Bridge. However, what is not clear in the caption is that the approach is photographed looking north from the top of the north tower of the Hell Gate Bridge itself, and that the bridge seen under construction is NOT the Hell Gate Bridge itself, but the Little Hell Gate Bridge. Today, although the Little Hell Gate has been eliminated by land reclamation, the Little Hell Gate Bridge itself, with its distinctive towers, and 3 intermediate supports appears to be still in place (perhaps someone from New York could confirm this).

Here is a Wikimapia link centred on what appears to be the centre support of the Little Hell Gate Bridge, with the distinctive towers of the entry portals clearly visible to north and south. A Wikimapia Place shows the approximate outline of the former Little Hell Gate. http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=40.791573&lon=-73.9231771&z=17&l=9&m=s&v=9

This photo would seem to confirm the continued existence of the Little Hell Gate Bridge as recently as 2007: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jag9889/2131213087/.

I will now update the actual Hell Gate Bridge page itself, and I will probably also make some changes to the Little Hell Gate page as well.

Cricobr (talk) 15:30, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Nice. You resolved it yourself before I had to tell you your initial interpretation was off. :-D - Denimadept (talk) 16:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

BTW, I've copied your description change to the image in Commons. - Denimadept (talk) 17:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

LHG truss spans

At first glance I said, "No, that's the Bronx Kill span under construction; LHG has no great span that will hang from those towers with the round knobs, and the buildings shown on the north bank of the west end of the waterway and on the east bank of the Harlem River do not exist" but my own pic shows my error. Good work, all. Probably the buildings were demolished in the middle 20th century. Does the left edge of the Pop Mech picture show stones of the north tower of the main span?Jim.henderson (talk) 11:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Type of arch?

What type of arch is this? A simple girder arch, with side-thrust into the towers? A tied-arch, where the deck restrains the side-thrust? Or a truss girder arch, where the arch itself is inherently stiff? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:52, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The connection to the towers is purely cosmetic. - Denimadept (talk) 18:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Tyne Bridge and Sydney Harbour Bridge

It is unlikely that either of these bridges took their main design influence from the Hell Bridge. It is much more likely that they took their design influence from Wylam Railway bridge on the Tyne which predates the Hell Bridge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.143.83.200 (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Sydney derives from Hell Gate. The others are all significantly different. Just consider how the end loads from the arch are restrained. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:04, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

New Yorker article

The history of the bridge, and its current condition as of the early 1990s, was covered in a 20-page article entitled "The Eighth Bridge" by Tom Buckley that was published in the January 14, 1991 issue of The New Yorker. --AllTheGoodNamesWereTaken (talk) 15:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Recent FP on Commons

Adding this here so others can decide if it makes sense to add. Would add as the main pic, but it's awfully wide for an infobox. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:44, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton talk 16:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

The main span of the Hell Gate Bridge

• ... that the main span of the Hell Gate Bridge, once the world's largest arch bridge, was almost built as a cantilever bridge? Source: "Construction of the New York Connecting Railroad: Ten Mile Line Involving Large Bridges and Viaducts Will Connect the Pennsylvania and New Haven". Railway Age Gazette. Vol. 57, no. 20. November 13, 1914. p. 890; Jablow, Valerie (October 1999). "Othmar Ammann's Glory". Smithsonian. Vol. 30, no. 7. pp. 34, 36, 38.
  • ALT1: ... that in 2005, a magazine estimated that the Hell Gate Bridge could last a thousand years if humans disappeared? Source: Weisman, Alan (February 2005). "Earth Without People: What would happen to our planet if the mighty hand of humanity simply disappeared?". Discover.
  • ALT2: ... that when the Hell Gate Bridge was repainted in the 1990s, a flaw in the paint caused the color to fade before the project was completed? Source: Kilgannon, Corey (March 8, 2012). "A Bad Impression Outlasts a Bridge's New Paint". The New York Times.
  • ALT3: ... that the design of the Hell Gate Bridge influenced that of the Sydney Harbour Bridge? Source: Barron, James (March 3, 2017). "Hell Gate Bridge, a Good Place to Hide From Zombies, Turns 100". The New York Times.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/The Force is with Cristal Beer
  • Comment: I can come up with more hooks later.

5x expanded by Epicgenius (talk). Self-nominated at 23:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Hell Gate Bridge; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Epicgenius please note that as the emergency backlog mode has been activated and you have more than 20 nominations, you will need to provide two QPQs. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
  • @AirshipJungleman29: I guess I should've seen this coming, given the length of the DYK nominations page. I've swapped my single QPQ for a double review. Epicgenius (talk) 02:12, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article meets the necessary DYK requirements. Hooks are also good, and I favor ALT1 and ALT2 about equally, followed by ALT3 and then ALT0 (which I don't think would be that interesting to a general audience). SounderBruce 04:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hell Gate Bridge/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Epicgenius (talk · contribs) 16:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Trainsandotherthings (talk · contribs) 19:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

Hi there, I'll be undertaking this review. While the article appears to be in excellent shape, due to its length and being busier than normal with my day job it may take me up to 2 weeks to complete this review.

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   Well done. I only found a few minor issues which have been resolved. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   All good here. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   A very intimidating total of 357 citations plus 4 notes, but everything looks kosher here. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   Article is extensively cited. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

   C. It contains no original research:

   No issues here. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   Spot check showed no issues. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   I am satisfied the article is comprehensive. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   Good job keeping to summary style without neglecting any significant information. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   Having read through the entire article, I do not see any problems with neutrality. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

   Stable edit history for the past year. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   I've reviewed copyright status for all images. They are either public domain or appropriately licensed. No non-free media present. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   I've left some suggestions below, but there's nothing at present that would cause the article to fail this criterion. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Well done. I have left one final comment about the usage section but otherwise I believe this article meets that GA criteria. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Comments

Lead, infobox, images

• I did some searching and found this photo on Commons (which was missing from the Hell Gate Bridge category, I've just added it) you may wish to add of a freight train on the bridge in the late 1940s, a time period where I think there's a gap in the photo coverage.
  • Nice find. The watermark is a bit intrusive, but I suppose it's the best pic from the era we have, since most of the other pics of the bridge are either from the 1900s/1910s, the late 20th century, or the 21st century. Epicgenius (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
• You have in the infobox the bridge was constructed by American Bridge Inc. and fabricated by American Bridge Company. Are these different entities?
  • Nope, they are the same. I changed the mention of "American Bridge Inc." in the infobox to "American Bridge Company". Epicgenius (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
• The bridge carries two tracks of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor and one freight track between Astoria, Queens, to Port Morris, Bronx, via Randalls and Wards Islands. reread this for grammar, the words "between" and "to" don't really mesh the way you have them right now.
  • Oops, it looks like I was changing the sentence from "from ... to ..." to "between ... and ..." without fully fixing it. I've done this. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• CSX and P&W should probably be wikilinked in the infobox, especially as they aren't mentioned in the lead at present.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
• I'm not going to mandate it, but images could use alt text where appropriate.
  • I will do this soon. Epicgenius (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
• I recommend adding at least one aerial image of the bridge which shows it with the approaches on each side, such as this one. You've got many photos of the main span, but less attention is given to the approaches. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks for taking up the review. I've done most of these and will be adding the alt text soon. Epicgenius (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Development

• Please include a link to car float in this section.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• where car floats towed railroad cars the car floats carried railroad cars, the towing was done by tugboats.
  • Oops. I've fixed this. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• Throughout the 1890s, the New York State Legislature considered various bills that would give the NYCR a franchise to construct a bridge from Long Island to the U.S. mainland, but to no avail. is there any more information available as to why the bills failed to pass at this point?
  • I'll take a look. I wanted to condense this for brevity, as there were several bills, and describing every one of them in detail would probably be unwieldy. On the other hand, I agree that it may make sense to mention why they didn't pass. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• The connecting railroad was to pay a fee to cross the East River. Pay a fee to whom? The RTC?
  • It was to be a $100 fee paid to the NYC government. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• Consider a link to Boring (earth).
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• Among other things, the aldermen wanted the bridge to use electric power exclusively wanted trains on the bridge to use electric power, I presume?
  • Yep. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• and allow the city to add utility wires to the bridge should be rewritten as "and the city to be allowed to add utility wires to the bridge" or similar, so it doesn't conflict with the clause at the start of the sentence.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• Consider adding inflation adjustments where dollar amounts are used.
  • I will do this soon. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

    I have done this. The inflation figures are in {{efn-lr}} footnotes, since two of the inflation figures require a longer explanation, and it would be unwieldy to slide them all into the text. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

• while John A. Gray received a contract to take soil samples for the bridge the source is titled "New Bridge Work Let; Ready to Make Test Borings for East River Structures"." This is referring to soil borings (essentially drilling underground with a drill rig, taking soil samples, and investigating the depth and hardness of soil and rock) and should be linked to Geotechnical investigation. You could rework the sentence as "while John A. Gray received a contract to complete test borings for the bridge's foundation." I work as a geotechnical engineer so this is right in my wheelhouse, and I can totally see why you wrote the sentence the way you did, it's a pretty niche field.
  • Done. That makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Epicgenius (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• Locomotive cranes can be linked to Crane (rail).
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Operational history

• During World War I, when the federal government took control of railroad lines in the U.S., the New York Central began using the Hell Gate Bridge,[150] allowing Long Island merchants to send products it looks like part of this sentence got cut off. There's no period and it sure looks like you meant to include more here.
  • Oops. I have fixed that. Epicgenius (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• In 1934, the NH put up its share of the bridge as collateral for a $6 million loan from the Reconstruction Finance Corporation might be worth adding the context that the New Haven was in financial trouble and ended up declaring bankruptcy the following year.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• The NH faced financial shortfalls in the late 1960s point of order, the New Haven went bankrupt in 1961. This section also neglects to mention both the New Haven's absorption into Penn Central at the end of 1968, and Conrail's takeover of Penn Central in 1976.
  • Done. I must have forgotten to add this, because it was definitely on my mind, but I have now added a source for all three of these. Epicgenius (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• Amtrak took over the bridge itself, and the passenger services that used it, in the 1970s can we be more specific? A lot of things changed in the 1970s. I think the transfer happened in 1976 but I don't remember for certain.
  • According to the Daily News, it was already owned by Amtrak by 1975. I couldn't really pinpoint it further, but I can take a look on Monday. Epicgenius (talk) 00:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• As part of Penn Station Access, in the 2020s, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) upgraded the Hell Gate Line to accommodate the Metro-North Railroad's New Haven Line; this required long-term interruptions to bridge traffic. is cited to a source from 2004. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Whoops. There was a little oversight there; I originally did have a source from 2023 there, but I am struggling to find it. I changed the first part of the sentence to use a source from 2022, and I removed the second half. Epicgenius (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Description

• Some terms could use wikilinks, including clear span, carbon steel, eyebar, and helper locomotive. I was disappointed to see nowhere on Wikipedia that mentions what bridge stringers are.
• The decks of each span are all made of concrete panels, which carry track beds with ballast; this was intended to reduce noise pollution. Might be worth clarifying this is not normal for a railroad bridge.
• The layer of rock under the Wards Island tower is substantially deeper, descending more than 100 feet (30 m), and sits atop a deep caisson foundation. Doesn't the foundation sit on the rock, not the other way around?
• The western viaduct is very similar to those above Randalls and Wards Islands, but the piers of the use shallow foundations due to the presence of gravel and sand under the viaduct. Looks like either you added extra words or some words got cut off here. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 00:36, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  Oops, I have fixed the last two. I also added some links and tried to clarify what a stringer is. As for your second point, I've added this as well. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:45, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Usage

• Any information on if/when the fee was discontinued?
  • Unfortunately I could not find reliable, independent or secondary sources talking about this. Epicgenius (talk) 01:54, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Impact

• I did not observe any issues with this section.

Spot checks

I checked the following sources: "Facts of Longest Bridge in World", "Big Gang Laying Hell Gate R. R.", "The All-rail Plan Takes on New Life", "Greatest of All Railroad Bridges at Hell Gate a Link in New England-Western Railroad Route", and "Great Hell Gate Bridge Triumph of Engineering". My checks have found the article to be consistent with the checked sources without any close paraphrasing. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)