Talk:Heaving to

How to

I don't agree with the {howto} template being added here, but will refrain from removing it atm. A how-to would be "First do A. Make sure that B. Then, do C." Whereas a discussion of the technique in an encyclopaedic tone is perfectly reasonable.

Heaving to under reduced sail is often employed by recreational sailors on small boats, as well as cruisers on larger boats. US Sailing's page on "Points of Sail" includes a graphic showing the basic steps at http://www.sailingusa.info/points_of_sail.htm. The skipper keeps the jib cleated but starts to tack. As the bow of the boat turns into the wind, the jib will be on the "wrong side" of the boat and be "back winded". As the boat stalls, the skipper pushes the tiller to leeward (or turns the wheel windward), and lashes it down. Some sailors prefer to ease the main sheet until the main sail stops luffing, while others prefer to bring the mainsail to mid-point on the traveler and cleat it there. The boat will tend to move forward a bit, while slipping leeward a bit. In many boats, the amount of slippage leeway is twice that of forward motion, so care must be taken to allow enough seaway.

Seems fine to me, though could do with further copyediting. Stevage 07:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with your assessment. I changed the template from howto to Copyedit. That's a perfectly valid process description, not so much a howto. However, it presumes understanding of much nautical terminology. I'll try to revisit this and either prune it down to make it easier to swallow, or expand it with descriptions to make it sweeter. Of course, I will not be the least bit offended if somebody beats me to it. Bigwyrm 04:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Slick

The point of lying hove-to is to create a von karman vortex street, or "slick" and to keep the approaching waves in that slick It causes the waves to break prematurely and saps much of the energy from from these waves and provides a more agreeable motion to the boat. If the vessel has much forereach (that is moving forward) it may very likely sail out of the protection of this slick To reduce "slipage" leeway or help hold the vessel in the slick some skippers may use a drouge or sea anchor. 84.254.188.2 02:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)2cents

I added this as a separate discussion point, since this is a (the?) primary purpose of heaving to in storm conditions. I wonder if the first section of the article titled Hove To should be renamed to Purpose. The text of this section seems to address the purpose of heaving to. This would facilitate the addition of description of slicking in a foul weather context of heaving to. Lin Pardey's book (already cited on this page) gives excellent discussion of the physics of wave cancellation and it's importance as a motivation to heaving to in high wave conditions. Tweaking the wording of this section to explain that heaving to gives two benefits (reduced/stopped boat speed and wave cancellation) would also seem to address concerns below around accessibility to land lubbers. The section names as they are only use variations of the article title and don't seem to add much. So my proposal is to rework into two top level sections: Purpose and Procedure (being careful to avoid how to, as previously discussed). Although I lack the physics knowledge myself, I'll point out that the previous discussion point mentions Kármán vortex street, an existing article on Wikipedia, and would be helpful to readers seeking to augment their understanding of the physics of sailing. Although certainly open to anyone, I'll be willing to copy edit and check back in a while to see if anyone has described reasons to alter this approach. Iowajason (talk) 03:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Layman's Terms

Instead of laying on thickly a bunch of sea terminology in a supposed attempt to explain other sea terms, how about actually explaining what you're talking about to the rest of us, who are waiting under 'bated wind, lor' blimey!

Instead of being a jerk why don't you re-phrase your request in a more civil tone? Nah, nevermind, I'll go write another article and donate some cash to the cause, it's such a wonderful user group here. lor' blimey! 72.235.238.233 00:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)fugetaboutit

Comment on this: IMHO it is not possible to properly explain sailing issues easily without using the proper terminology. If you really wanted a description without such terminology you'd be reading high level physics instead. I do agree diagrams would help (but I don't have any handy at the moment). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yttrill (talk • contribs) 16:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Diagrams Please

I'm a land lubber and, although very interested in this subject, was left rather unenlightened after reading this article. I mean i get the gist of it, but the actual tactics used relied on more nautical terms than i was familiar with.

After some consideration, i came to the conclusion that what was needed was not a dumbing down of the article but rather a couple of concise diagrams. After all, it is a term that comes up often in sailing nomenclature and i'm sure would be of great benefit to many.

Thanks for listening and love to all fellow Wikipedians.

Outofthewoods (talk) 02:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

backing sail

The description of 'backing' a sail so that the wind presses on the forward, rather than aft side of the sail is poor. Air pressure is exerted on both sides of a sail at all times. In fact, the principle reason for backing the sail is to destroy laminar flow and create turbulence, thus reducing the drive whilst still maintaining some drive, particularly some leeward force (even when the yacht is pointed right into the wind).

The statement the sheets are run outside the shrouds is entirely misleading and incorrect. The sheets run where they do, they're not rerouted for the purpose of backing the sail. On my cutter rigged yacht the foremost sail's sheets run outside the shrouds and the staysail sheets run inside the shrouds. This is where they go, whether the sail is backed or not.

The statement the sails are arranged to cancel forward motion by balancing the forces on more than one sail is also utterly wrong. A more correct description is given later.

The correct description is that the sails and rudder are arranged so that when the vessel bears away forces to turn it to windward increase and when it heads up forces to make it bear away increase, so that the vessel approximates a constant heading. In addition the rudder is set so excess forward motion turns the boat into the wind eventually reducing forward drive, thus maintaining a constant but low speed. The backing of the sail ensures the boat does not point too high into the wind and possible get into irons or changing tack. The balancing angle of attack is also hopefully sufficiently sharp to prevent broaching in heavy seas.

In practice not all sea conditions and hull and sail configurations actually permit heaving to. [I was crew on a yacht assisting a person undergoing a Yachtmaster exam and heaving-to was one of the examination requirements, the yacht simply would not heave-to, at least with a fully unfurled genoa.] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yttrill (talk • contribs) 16:30, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed neither of my booats - a bilge keeled ketch and a long keeled sloop - heave to simply like this. The long keeled sloop has terrible weather helm (i.e. she tries always to turn to windward) and with any significant canvas on the foresail she tacks through the winds and thus goes in an unwanted circle. As there is no other word for it stopping in this way on mainsail alone must be called "heaving to". I presume the same is true of junk rig. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.235.118.49 (talk) 12:47, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Another meaning

There must be another meaning of to heave to. In Sea Patrol they call it everytime when they hail a ship and want to board it. So a more general explanation would be useful.--109.91.72.35 (talk) 17:47, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

That's more a kind of metaphor, I think, not another meaning. Like a blueprint that may actually be a computer file. --Nigelj (talk) 19:06, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Attribution and a suggestion

I copied a sentence and reference to Turtling (sailing). There are a lot of references there that cover the Fastnet 1979 race, and might have some use here. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:32, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Heaving to as a storm tactic

The article says: "Not one of the hove to yachts were capsized or suffered any serious damage." Not sure if that's really true. In fact there are very credible sources which disprove this statement.

The Wikipedia artice "1979 Fastnet race" gives a link to a copy of the official FASTNET RACE INQUIRY (http://www.blur.se/images/fastnet-race-inquiry.pdf). Some quotations from this official inquiry:

- "Extracts from reports give an Indication of the tactics adopted by a number of boats and their skippers' assessments of their success: [...] Two bad knockdowns while hove to [...]."

- "No magic formula for guaranteeing survival emerges from the experiences of those who were caught in the storm.. There is, however, an inference that active rather than passive tactics were successful and those who were able to maintain some speed and directional control fared better."

One can find many more statments from witnesses on the internet. But I guess the official report should be proof enough :-)

New comment added by Anna (sorry, don't know how to separate it out)

– seems to me that this section should be more cautious. It comes across as "this is what you should do in a storm" - which doesn't sound justified? Not a sailor, don't know - but I don't think it's wikipedia's place to be giving technical sailing safety advice

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Removed improvement template

Have today removed the improvement template "needs additional or better citations for verification" following the addition of approximately 10 references. I also plan to expand the article over the next few days, particularly the storm tactic section Ilenart626 (talk) 10:13, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

'Heaving into view'

I am assuming that the expression 'heaving into view'/'hove into view' is not connected with 'heaving to' but is from another meaning of 'heave', i.e. 'rise'. And does 'heaving to' originate with heaving (pulling) on a rope (sorry, I'm not a sailor)? Enlightenment please! PhilUK (talk) 10:04, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Heaving - to as a storm tactic

I first would like to repeat and emphasize what is said further up under identical headline.

The articles of Wikipedia are well researched; everybody trusts in Wikipedia. In "Heaving to as a storm tactic" the tactic of heaving-to is wrongly glorified. If a sailor choses the wrong tactic in a severe gale it may have worst consequences. I try - to substantiate why the article is problematic - to propose a new.

The author of the article "Heaving-to as a storm tactic" solely draws upon Peter Bruce ("Heavy Weather Sailing") and Lin and Larry Pardey ("Storm Tactics"). Both authors support heaving-to for all types of yachts and in extreme storms. Authors who strongly advise against heaving-to (for fin keel yachts) are blocked out: - Dashew ("Surviving the Storm") "The heavy-displacement, full-keel boat ... might create a slick to windward ... Very few (if any) modern yachts create a slick - or enough of one to be valuable in these conditions." (p 324) -   Pickthall ("Blauwassersegeln manual") „Drag ropes or heave-to is the worst what you can do under such conditions.“ (p. 248, translated) „The greatest advantage of modern yachts … is their manouvrability. Never heave to … a severe knockdown would be the presumable consequence.“  (p. 251)

For full keel yachts heaving-to seems to be really a safe stormtactic. This is illustrated by examples: Helmut van Straelen, Garry Griffin, Bernard Moitessier (see "Storm Tactics for Sailing Yachts ... a Synopsis", www.Lampalzer.de)

For fin keel yachts this tactic possibly is fatal. In the end Peter Bruce differenciates: "... heaving-to under sails appears to have been the safest tactic for moderate - or heavy - displacement yachts. On the other hand, modern, lightly constructed yachts do not always heave-to comfortably under sail ... Many are too lively, make too much leeway, and do not `look after themselves` as traditional yachts do, so an alternative has to be found. ..."   (p. 254) The assessment by the Pardeys …  "Not one of the hove to yachts were capsized (knocked down or turtled) or suffered any serious damage." … during the Fastnet storm really is problematic. In the Fastnet report there is no table or text passage which would confirm this. On the contrary the comment states:     -   „Two bad knockdowns while hove to.“ (p. 35) Of course a knockdown is not a 360 ^o – roll. But this statement is just one voice in the comments who all show how helpless one can be. The authors of the Fastnet Report continue: -   „Others have reported that at the height of the storm there were some waves which were of a size and shape such that there was no defensive tactic which would prevent them from rolling or severely damaging a yacht caught in their path.“  (p. 36)     -   „No magic formula for guaranteeing survival emerges from the experiences of those who were caught in the storm.“ (4.14, p. 36) They would certainly have pointed out if one of the stormtactics would have been so successful as the Pardeys describe. In contrast the Fastnet report reaches the following conclusion: „There is, however, an inference that active rather than passive tactics were successful and those who were able to maintain some speed and directional control fared better.“ (4.14, S. 36) Heaving-to is a passive tactic.

A last thought: If it would have been possible to face the conditions of the Fastnet gale only by heaving-to it would not have been necessary for Donald Jordan to develop the Series Drogue to cope with conditions like Fastnet. It would have done to point to heaving-to as the proper storm tactic instead of working for years using all the methods of the modern engineer and have tested his results by the British Coastguard (Coast-Guard-Report, No. CG-D-20-87).

Conclusion In my opinion the passage „Heaving to as a stormtactic“ -    should be cancelled because Wikipedia should not position itself in a highly controversial matter and give doubtful advice -    or the passsage should be replaced by a new one.

                                                        - - - - -

Bibliography  Peter Bruce,                 "Heavy Weather Sailing",  ⁶2008, ISBN 978-0-07-159290-1 Lin and Larry Pardey,    "Storm Tactics", 1995 Barry Pickthall,             "Blauwassersegeln manual",  2007, original edition "The Blue Water Sailing Manual", 2006 Steve  & Linda Dashew, "Surviving the Storm", 1999, ISBN 0-96580-9-2; www.Setsail.com     

"1979 Fastnet Race Inquiry",   http://www.blur.se/images/fastnet-race-inquiry.pdf Donald Jordan, texts       www.jordanseriesdrogue.com Dr. Hans Lampalzer,  "Storm Tactics for Sailing Yachts ... a Synopsis", www.Lampalzer.de

Hans-Brigitte, 19. 2. 2023 Hans-Brigitte (talk) 18:56, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Heaving-to as a storm tactic - Proposal

There are no scientific investigations about heaving-to.

Therefore we must rely upon the experiences of sailors and their reports.

A distinction needs to be made between full keel yachts, fin keel yachts and yachts in between.

Full Keel Yachts

      „The greatest advantage of modern yachts … is their maneuverability. Never heave to … a severe knockdown would be the presumable consequence.“ ⁽⁶⁾

·   Fin keel yachts produce little or no slick to windward. Heaving-to never should be considered.

Yachts in between

Maybe vessels with a rather deep and long keel but split lateral plane do not produce enough slick.

Maybe the same holds true for full keel yachts with a comparatively small lateral plane of the keel.

·   Owners of yachts in between should try to obtain information whether the own vessel produces enough slick. Or perhaps one could test it under conditions which are not too dangerous.

Jordan-Series Drogue

This device is an ultimate alternative referring storm tactics for all types of yachts.

                                                                                                                                 

                                                          - - - - -

⁽¹⁾       „Beidrehen? … Im Orkan?“, www.Lampalzer.de; translated 

                                             - - - - -

Bibliography

Peter Bruce,                 "Heavy Weather Sailing",  ⁶2008, ISBN 978-0-07-159290-1

Andrew Claughton,     "The stability of yachts in large breaking waves",

                                                       in: Peter Bruce, "Heavy Weather Sailing"  

Steve & Linda Dashew, "Surviving the Storm", 1999, ISBN 0-96580-9-2; www.Setsail.com

Wilfried Erdmann,       "Segeln mit Wilfried Erdmann", Hamburg, ⁵2004;

                                   "Sturmsegeln", www.wilfried-erdmann.de

Earl R. Hinz,                "Heavy Weather Tactics – Using Sea Anchors & Drogues”, 2003,

Bernard Moitessier,       "Kap Horn – Der logische Weg", ³1978

Lin and Larry Pardey,   "Storm Tactics", 1995

Barry Pickthall,              "Blauwassersegeln manual", 2007, original edition "The Blue Water Sailing Manual", 2006

Hal Roth,                     "Handling Storms at Sea", 2009, ISBN 978-1 4081-1348-6;  www.adlardcoles.com

Helmut van Straelen, "Beidrehen? - Im Orkan?"      www.Lampalzer.de

"1979 Fastnet Race Inquiry",   http://www.blur.se/images/fastnet-race-inquiry.pdf

"Coast Guard Report 1989",     http://www.sv-zanshin.com/manuals; www.jordanseriesdroguecoastguardreport.pdf

Links

www.jordanseriesdrogue.com; Donald Jordan, Texts

www.Lampalzer.de: "Storm Tactics for Sailing Yachts ... a Synopsis"

www.uneinvitationauvoyage.eu: "Solutions pour affronter le gros temps"

                                                                                                   Hans-Brigitte, 27. 2. 2024 Hans-Brigitte (talk) 19:51, 27 February 2023 (UTC)