Talk:Heaven & Hell (Ava Max album)

Edit-warring

User:Cat Manolache, User:Rangel Carregosa, User:199.7.158.237: Can you three stop edit-warring about whether "OMG What's Happening" is a promotional single or single. There is a WP:3RR policy which states that any revert over three edits will result in a 24 hour block. If any user attempts anymore changes without discussing on this talk page, I will report them to WP:ANI or seek semi-protection. User:Rangel Carregosa, these edits [1][2][3][4][5] in less than 24 hours have shown that you have violated the 3RR policy. However, I will not report you if you start a discussion underneath this section. Thank you. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 07:25, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello! Thanks for letting me know. I'm not going to do that anymore. But The User:Cat Manolache could stop vandalizing the article. Rangel Carregosa (talk) 14:07, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Lead single

Hello! The album currently has 7 singles, with "Sweet But Psycho" as the lead single. I don’t agree.

This article from MTV says "Kings & Queens" is the lead. The article states: "On Thursday (March 12), [Max] reemerged with 'Kings & Queens,' her first solo song of 2020 and the official lead single for her upcoming debut album." MTV is a WP:RS, and I agree with this statement.

This is similar to the situation on Talk:Smile (Katy Perry album)#Never Really Over as lead single, it brings up a valid point. Bluesatellite says: "per Template:Infobox_song#album: If the song was originally released as a single well in advance of the album, |album= should not be used, since it is not from the album, but later added to one.."

I agree with this. I think "Kings & Queens", "Who's Laughing Now" and "OMG What's Happening" should be the three singles, and "Torn", "Salt", "So Am I" and "Sweet But Psycho" should be treated like Perry's "Never Really Over". They should be standalone singles as they were released as such, (also if you look at the |album= parameter on the NRO page, it has a description). This is literally exactly what happened on Smile (Katy Perry album). Doggy54321 (talk) 14:31, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

I would agree with your sentiment if the first sentence was actually included in the article. Although the MTV source is reliable, it is the only source which states that it is a lead single, and was published before the track listing was even revealed. If more sources corroborated on MTV's statement that it is a lead single, it could be mentioned in the lead. Wikipedia templates are not official WP:POLICY, so they should generally not be included as the sole basis of a discussion. That said, the definition of a "lead single" in the streaming era has since changed from the days of cassette and CD releases, as User:Lil-unique1 stated here that by including songs previously released on the album it contributes towards the number of units moved - single track streams count towards overall album streams. In addition, User:Status stated here that all of these songs were released in the lead up to an album. Whether or not it took 1.5 years for it to come out is irrelevant. From the way Max structured her album for "Torn" to be considered a "purgatory" song in a vinyl release format from Flaunt and the album's cassette release, each song has no reason to not warrant its inclusion in the album, as they are not included as "bonus" or "deluxe edition" songs. The article should not have any indication of a particular song being a "lead single" unless supported by multiple WP:RS recently, and should include all songs released in both the infobox singles template and the corresponding section. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 22:21, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Although I appreciate being tagged in this conversation, I ultimately agree with the situation that occurred with Katy Perry. She released NRO and specifically said IT WAS NOT the first single from her album. She referred to Daisies as the first single and at the time of releasing Daisies specifically talked about the release of an album. The same logic should be applied here. Also, please note that lead single doesn't necessarily mean first single, it means it is the single directly preceding the album's release. For me, its about at which point in the single releases, did she actually acknowledge that it was from her album either by name or virtue. Our wiki definition of single is a song released in promotion of the album. If said album hasn't been released, or an album campaign hasn't started then you shouldn't assume that song X included on album Z is a single from album z. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:38, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Agree completely! Doggy54321 (talk) 21:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

I fully agree with everything stated about Katy Perry's album, considering she personally stated that "Never Really Over" was never intended to be the first single for Smile. In regards to Heaven & Hell, it is not evidently clear which singles are clearly intended to be promoted along with the album. While MTV News and Nylon indicate that "Kings & Queens" was the first single off of the album, other sources such as Flaunt, Billboard, American Songwriter and People have treated each single with equal importance prior to the album's release, with Max refusing to acknowledge the first song deliberately promoted for the album. It also has not helped that the MTV News source was prematurely written before the tracklist reveal, while Max stated in an April 2019 Billboard interview that the two previously released songs ("Sweet but Psycho", "So Am I") were intended to be included on the album. In addition, Flaunt and People also stated that "Torn" was integral to the album's development, while "Salt" was built on fan-promotion on SoundCloud resulting in its official release per Nylon. No song on the album is explicitly stated to be a lead single by multiple sources since its release, so it should not be included on the article. In regards to which songs are classified as singles which promote the album, Max's promotional strategy seemed to be releasing songs which are constituted as "stand-alone", with intentions for them to be included on the album. With the COVID-19 pandemic further delaying the album's release, it only stunted promotion earlier, leading to a discrepancy of singles starting from "Kings & Queens" being released as compensation. Due to the complicated nature of classifying which singles promote the album from pre-"Kings & Queens" to post-"Kings & Queens" because of the pandemic, maybe it is best to individually assess each single promoting the album as a discussion below. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 00:35, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Update: BBC News and Vulture have both indicated that there are currently six to seven singles released prior to the release of "Naked". There does not seem to be many reliable sources that have disregarded singles prior to "Kings & Queens" yet, which should indicate that every song released as a single from Heaven & Hell has been acknowledged by several sources as promoting the album per WP:DIVERSE, despite the first four being released prior to the album's official announcement. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 10:01, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't know if it's too late to jump on this discussion but I truly agree with the statement regarding that the lead single was always meant to be "Kings and Queens". When Ava dropped the other songs she didn't even had her album planned or completed so they were probably included to inflate the sales and streaming numbers (a common tactic by Atlantic). She even said in an interview that out of all the previous songs only SBS was going to the included out of all the previous singles (so the label really should had pushed her to include the rest). Plus, some of the early singles were released in some cases YEARS before the album. Anonpediann (talk) 12:06, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Deluxe edition and singles list

I saw that someone wrote the "tracklist" for the deluxe edition. Is it accurate or not? If it is, please, cite the source (which should be reliable). Besides, «EveryTime I Cry» should not be included in the singles list because the singles list should only include songs from the standard edition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jvaspad (talk • contribs) 22:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Deluxe cancelled

In the section titled "Promotion", it should be mentioned that Ava has cancelled her plans of releasing a deluxe edition and will move on to her next album. Jvaspad (talk) 17:28, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jvaspad: If there is a reliable source stating that she has cancelled the deluxe edition, add it here and I will include it in the appropriate section. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 03:25, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

@Angryjoe1111: This one should be reliable since it is based on a recent interview with her, which also appears in the article. She mentions wanting to leave any plans for B-sides behind and move on to her second album. https://www.audacy.com/mix1041/news/ava-maxs-dishes-about-new-album-that-has-her-speechless Jvaspad (talk) 12:38, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jvaspad: Thanks, I added the citation in the article along with other relevant information. — Angryjoe1111 (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2021 (UTC)