Talk:Hauran/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 04:58, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Happy to review the article. Amitchell125 (talk) 04:56, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Assessment

Lead section

• Please add links for: ALA-LC romanization (ALA-LC); steppe; Jabal al-Druze; breadbasket; basalt.
• the links formally annexed and major conflict zone rather unexpectedly take you to articles that don't match the text, please amend sentences so this does not happen.
• Remove the capital R in Hejaz Railway
• Remove the second Nabatean link.
• The region continued to fare well... Replace the clumsy-sounding 'fare well' with 'prosper'.

All of the above done. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• The Hauran remained Syria's breadbasket until it was largely supplanted by the country's north in the mid-20th century.. I understand the sentence but it doesn't quite work.

Let me know if the sentence works now. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all fine. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:41, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

More to follow (section by section). It's a great article to review, Al Ameer. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to review it ;) Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Geography

• links needed - topography; cinder cone; precipitation; water springs (Spring (hydrology))

Done.

• also known as "Jabal al-Druze" or "Jabal al-'Arab" imo single quote marks are better stylistically, as no quotations are involved.

Revised. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• Golan Heights (Jawlan) - change '(Jawlan)' to '(Jawlan in Arabic)'

Done. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• Geographer John Lewis Burckhardt defined - the source/date of the quote are both missing.

Fixed. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• I have produced a map to include here, which I will amend in any way you see fit. Unless you have any objection / amendments to suggest, I will add it to this section.

Thanks for taking the initiative on this, I was going to create one myself. There are amendments regarding precision and missing info that should be made but I will detail them tomorrow. We may have to use a different base map if that’s ok. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Happy to make any amendments you suggest. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:48, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: I just sent you an email with a labeled satellite map indicating the approximate boundaries of the Hauran and its geographic subdivisions (Jaydur, Nuqrah, Lajat and Jabal al-Druze). I don't know where to access free satellite imagery, but that would be the preferable base map as the Hauran and its sub-regions are clearly defined in satellite maps (i.e. the red clay soil of the Hauran plains and Jabal al-Druze, the lava field of the Lajat). The source (NASA) for the map used in the lead of this article, File:Houran 03.JPG, is probably the best place to go, though I had a hard time finding samples. You might have better luck.

The aforementioned subregions should be labeled and in parentheses below each name should be the Classical name, i.e. "Nuqrah (Batanea)", as indicated in my reference map. The Ruqqad, Yarmouk, and Jordan rivers should be shown and labeled, particularly since the first two serve as boundaries for the Hauran.

The bordering areas, i.e. Jabal Ajlun, Golan Heights, Mount Hermon, the Safa field, the Hamad steppe, the Ghouta oasis should be labeled. I noticed you labeled most of these.

All boundaries should be dashed. The external boundary could be one style, the subregional boundaries another.

The cities you currently have labeled are fine, though I would either drop the "notable city" distinction altogether or replace it with "major city". Umm al-Jimal is very much uninhabited so it should be labeled as an archaeological site with a different marker than that used for towns/cities. I'm debating whether we should add the Classical names for cities such as Shaqqa, Shahba, Qanawat, etc. I'll leave it up to you since I'm not sure if there is sufficient space to include the extra names. Nawa should be added to the map as its population is quite large relative to the administrative centers of Izra, Salkhad and Sanamayn. Perhaps Ghabaghib, Muzayrib and Shaykh Saad should also be included as the first is mentioned as the northern point of the Hauran and the latter two were important centers of the region during Ottoman rule.

Tell al-Hara is fine. I'm not sure that we should label the Battle of Yarmouk unless we name other major battles in the Hauran vicinity, such as the Battle of Panium. Al Ameer (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Map almost complete, but I cannot locate Jabal Ajlun or the Hamad steppe. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:35, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Satellite version of map here. Amendments? Amitchell125 (talk) 22:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: The latest version of the map looks great. There are some amendments needed, mostly typos, which I'll list below:

• 'Major city' should be renamed as 'Governorate capital' only because it's not clear by the selection what the barometer is for major cities (population, administrative status?); in which case, Ramtha should be made into a red marker.
• Tell al-Hara should be indicated with a pyramid marker below the name.
• Could the exterior boundary of the Hauran be made just a bit thicker?
• The labels of bordering regions (i.e. Mount Hermon, Ghouta) should be bold as they are difficult to read (I know satellite maps make reading text a bit challenging)
• No need to show the city of Ajloun; it's not of any importance for this map; if anything we could show Irbid and al-Mafraq as they are the capitals of Jordanian governorates that include territory of the Hauran, but this isn't necessary either.
• Ghouta and Marj should be moved northward to the green areas around Damascus. We can actually delete "Marj" altogether, as the two areas seem to overlap.
• On second thought, just delete al-Shaykh Saad; it's a distraction and takes up too much space. By extension, we could remove the word "village" from the legend and solely indicate "town" as the remaining localities are all large or administratively important enough to be towns.
• The classical name 'Auranitis' should be added below Jabal al-Druze.
• The Hamad steppe is simply the vast desert region abutting the Hauran in the south. If we want go a bit extra, Hamad and Safa should be spaced out (eg. 'S a f a') and written diagonally northwest/southeast as they both cover vast steppe regions.
• The word 'River' should be deleted from Jordan, Yarmouk and Ruqqad.
• West Bank or Palestine should be labeled.
• Typos: Jabal Ajlouin should be Jabal Ajloun; Naya → Nawa; Ghabaghig → Ghabaghib; Trachonitus → Trachonitis
• Something seems off about the labels "al-Sanamayn" and "Qanawat". The text seem to have a background. Minor point in any case.

• 200 millimeter and 250 millimeter - use Template:Convert (200 millimetres (7.9 in) etc.).

Done. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• add style="text-align:center; to wikitable text

Could you insert this in the proper place? I’m terrible with tables. Or let me know specifically where to add it. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:49, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

History

• Address the issue raised by the clarification tag. (perhaps by replacing the sentence with a slightly longer one, such as 'The region was occupied by the Hebrews from around 1500-1000 BCE, when control was contested between the Aramean kingdom of Damascus and the Kingdom of Israel during the 9th and 8th centuries ').

I did not understand what needed to be clarified. Narky Blert added the tag, but did not elaborate on the talk page. A different editor later clarified precisely which centuries (“9th and 8th centuries BCE”) instead of what was there before: “second half of 2000 BCE“, but didn’t remove the tag and it must have slipped under my radar (I just realized this now). As such the tag should be removed without modifying the text, particularly as I’m not sure if “The region was occupied by the Hebrews from around 1500-1000 BCE”. Al Ameer (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I didn't understand the tag either. Happy to leave the text as it was, as my suggestion was very tentative. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:52, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I removed the tag, but with the understanding that coverage of the pre-Hellenistic period should probably be expanded. Al Ameer (talk) 22:47, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

• Several underwent urbanization and became cities between the late 1st and 5th centuries - I would improve the prose by moving between the late 1st and 5th centuries to the beginning of this phrase.
• local offices - change to 'local positions', as 'offices' could be misread as a kind of building at the end of a list of buildings.
• link Semitic languages; Aramaic

Done Al Ameer (talk) 20:01, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• the Sinai and Euphrates Valley - Euphrates Valley should read 'the Euphrates valley'
• took abode - needs to be replaced, as it's not proper English
• and the latter's Lakhmid vassals - please clarify this as it doesn't appear to fit with the rest of the sentence.
• "phylarch of all Arabs" - is this a quotation? (if yes, the source/author needs to be given in the sentence; if no the phrase needs to be written as 'phylarch of all Arabs')
• in numerous villages - too vague, replace with 'in the region's villages' if a specific number is unavailable.
• Although a Christian presence in some cities of Auranitis was noted - noted by whom?
• The Umayyad dynasty... ...and found support from the people of Hauran. - I think I understand what you mean but it needs to be more clearly expressed: '...and gained the support of the people of Hauran'?
• link Turkish; Greek Orthodox (the word 'Christian' is superfluous and can be removed, it doesn't matter that 'Greek Orthodox' was linked in the lead section); conscripted (Conscription#History)
• they often played the role of mediator - replace phrase with 'mediated'
• proximate to their coreligionists - the prose here needs to be replaced with something like 'near to other followers of their own faith'
• the virtual dual taxation of the peasantry by the government and the Bedouin - why virtual? (either they were taxed twice or they weren't) Replace with 'the taxation of the peasantry by both the government and the Bedouin'.
• the latter's periodic raids, the encroachments of Bedouin livestock - replace with 'periodic raids by the Bedouin and the encroachments of their livestock...'.
• According to Lewis - Who is Lewis?
• Resettlement also caused a scarcity of land for Bedouin herds to graze by the decade's end. - this needs to be copy-edited

All done. And thank you for your copyedits. Al Ameer (talk) 18:38, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Post-Syrian independence period

• I don't see that the motor bike image adds to the article - is something happening I haven't noticed? As such it should be removed/replaced. (seeMOS:IMAGERELEVANCE)
• Sourdel - who is he?
• ... and formed the area crossing Damascus to the north and Jordan to the south. - is this information needed here, as the Geographical definition has already been give in another section?
• during roughly the same period - the period being referred to here needs to be clarified.
• has been eclipsed - replace with 'was eclipsed'.
• The Hauran's agriculture has been limited ... - please specify what is meant here, are you referring to the yield levels? the type of crop or livestock? the areas where agricultural production happens? As the text in the paragraph from this phrase onwards is about current conditions, and not the years following World War 2, it should be in a separate paragraph.
• parts of the Hauran, such as Bosra and its surroundings, were "pretty much left to their own devices" - please use the reference at the end of the sentence to explain what were they left alone to do, as the text doesn't make this clear.
• influence gradually became diffuse - this phrase could be taken to mean several things and needs to be rewritten.
• The Syrian Civil War was sparked in the Hauran town of Daraa - is a date available? (The Syrian Civil War article gives '15 March 2011 – present' (ref 129))

Demography

• the indigenous Ḥawarna - does the word need to be in italics here?
• a significant Christian population - a number or percentage would be helpful.
• alongside its traditional agrarian clans - 'their traditional'?

Architecture

• Fleming Aalund - who is Fleming Aalund?
• 10 meters and 4 meters - change to '10 metres (33 ft)' etc., using [[Template:Convert]]
• churches, monasteries and other religious edifices - amend to 'churches and monasteries' (I'm quite sure that's all that Christians built: cathedrals are a kind of church, and 'monasteries' covers nearly everything that isn't a church or a cathedral)
• link arches (Arch); Princeton University; masonry
• Schumacher - Gottlieb Schumacher?

Notes

• Christian pluralities - needs to be be linked

please ignore this!

• villages - some of the places listed have large populations (e.g. Da'el is over 20,000) and cannot be listed as villages. Replace villages with 'places' or other suitable word.

References

• Heras, Nicholas A. (June 2014). There are 20 citations to this reference, but none have page numbers, which should be included. This will mean listing the reference in the Bibliography section.
• Middle East Report, No. 163. The citation gives p. 7, but the reference document begins on p. 35

Bibliography

• Did Moshe Hartal write the chapter cited in Urman (2006)? The chapter heading gives Hartal's name, not Urman's.

On hold

Still working on the map, review now largely completed and the article is now close to GA. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:15, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Very close now, Al Ameer, the remaining issues to finish off are: the map; the motor bike image; the incorrect use of the word villages in the Notes section; the references (Heras and Middle East Report); and Urman (2006) in Bibliography. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:26, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Looking again, none of the remaining issues need stop the article from being GA (but they can always be added in time!) Excellent work, and you have made it a pleasure to review the article. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Thank you for such a thorough review and your copyedits. You went well beyond what is required of a reviewer. Your efforts with the map alone will drastically improve the article when it is added. I proposed amendments to the map above. Also, we don't need to scrap your original map. I think there might be room for both: the detailed satellite map could replace the current one in the lead and the topography/altitude map could be added to the Geography section without all of those towns/villages and subregional boundaries. Just the exterior boundary. I'll leave that decision up to you though ;)

Meanwhile, I'll fix the remaining referencing/bibliography issues now. I have not been able to find information about the percentages of Christians in the Hauran as a whole, but have noted which localities have Christian majorities/pluralities and provided somewhat antiquated stats/surveys for the Suwayda Governorate as late as 1985. I'll look into census info for the Daraa Governorate as well if I can find it. In any case, I think "significant" should be dropped from "minority" when describing the Christian presence as they don't seem to boast high numbers in this specific region these days, either as a result of the civil war or emigration in the decades prior. --Al Ameer (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)