Talk:Harvard Extension School/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Harvard Extension School. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

This entire talk page should be REMOVED. Extension is one of the schools of Harvard and is no better or no worse than any other. Is there a page such as this for any other Harvard school? It is common for The Public to look for some nuance that gives them a reason to criticize or a reason to not participate when the truth is they just don't want to do the work. That Extension offers open admission is the perfect excuse to make absurd statements and pretend they are fact. Most people don't want to take courses after work at any university, thus the horror of open admission gives them reason not to attend. Harvard College students are taking the same courses from the same professors as Extension students. Open admission gives these people something to seize upon as absolute proof of the superiority of their own program. WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE PLAYING INTO THIS NONSENSE?! THERE IS NOT A DIME'S DIFFERENCE IN EXTENSION AND ANY OTHER HARVARD SCHOOL. THIS ENTIRE TALK PAGE SHOULD BE REMOVED.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.97.181.117 (talk) 16:41, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

If anyone is having trouble understanding the Extension School's nature, please take your concerns directly to Harvard University, instead of trashing Harvard around the web. It is disgusting and embarrassing to read some of the posts regarding this issue. The article is accurate and concise enough, and is obviously not comparing HES to Harvard College in any way. Any Harvard student or alumni knows the importance of respecting the Harvard name. Please keep in mind that HES is part of Harvard University and that your comments are not only affecting the image of the Extension School, but Harvard's image in general.

In response, I agree that the College is the heart of Harvard University--and it deserves the credit as such. The course work is almost identical overall to the College, however. I've been a student in both the College and Extension.

Here's another response: There are no legacy admissions at the Extension School, which is very common among the Harvard College student population. There is no Extension School Z List, nor are there any sports-based waivers for borderline applicants. People who matriculate into the Extension School ALB program actually have to prove they can do the work. I question this article's statement about HES having a "rigorous" admissions policy. As a graduate of Harvard College, I know that the bar is set much lower for HES ALB students than those who are accepted into the actual college. While I do not deny that HES offers a great education at an amazing value, it is hard to equate that an HES degree from any degree offered by other colleges at Harvard University.

--- How does the ALB and ALM degrees offered by the Harvard Extension School compare to the more traditional AB and AM degrees?

Answer: In the ALM Liberal Arts program, the thesis requirement is a big differentiator. This was told to me by my thesis director, a professor in the Government department (FAS), who also teaches and advises GSAS students. At the Ed School, some EdM programs only have to take classes to receive their degree -- there is no thesis or final research project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.190.75 (talk) 20:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

House Affiliation

Harvard Extension School has no Harvard House Affiliation. This is very important for the Student Life section. Why do people keep deleting it?

Response: I haven't deleted it, but I imagine the lack of house affiliation makes every bringing it up irrelevant. Why mention the lack of something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.179.59 (talk) 04:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Possible shield misrepresentation

hi, all: should we be using the dce shield instead of the harvard extension shield. i think that's disrespectful to us hard-working extension students. we have our own shield. it's blue, not red. i think we should take this one down and proudly have the 'real' extension school shield out of respect for our alma mater.--Extensiontf (talk) 01:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

here's a link to an example of the extension school shield. http://www.thesourceofcourse.com/pics/webveri.gif. let's use the proper one instead of the dce shield. --Extensiontf (talk) 01:30, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I've just been informed that this is actually shield misrepresentation. The Extension School Shield is blue, gold, and red. We need to take this down and put up the correct photo asap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Extensiontf (talk • contribs) 03:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I request that the shield shown on the wiki page be deleted (it's the photo under the main article). It is not the shield of the harvard extension school. it is the shield for the division of continuing education, which houses iel, summer school, and the extension school. the harvard extension school has its own unique shield that's blue, gold, and red (dont' quote me on this). You can view the extension shield at the following URL: www.extension.harvard.edu. if you look at the text under the image on the wikipage, you'll see that the wording clearly states division of continuing education, but has the words "harvard extension school" above it. i am a student at the school. i know this is not the flag or shield for the extension school. every extension school student know it.

if you look at the following website: http://dce.harvard.edu/

you'll see that the extension school colors have been changed. please remove the photo until a more accurate photo can be obtained.

ACTUALLY, I don't see any proof that it's the DCE shield either (though, I don't doubt this). --Extensiontf (talk) 03:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It's probably best to file a request for comment here, so consensus can be reached. Just for future reference, the {{editprotected}} is used for fully-protected pages only. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 07:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the real extension shield. I wish we could fly this shield on the article's homepage. I'm more proud of this shield than the DCE one. Let's put it together. --Extensiontf (talk) 05:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The Shield of the Extension School

This is a representation of a government, military, regimental, family, or other symbol such as a flag, seal, emblem, coat of arms or crest. This symbol may be copyrighted by its holder. As well, it is known that the representation of this symbol is either copyrighted by the holder of the symbol or is not available under a free licence. There may also be other restrictions on reproduction, including but not limited to article 6ter of the Paris Convention. It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of such symbols

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What is your source for this shield? could I please see the exact URL you got this shield from? Thanks --71.233.150.26 (talk) 12:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Also note the shield that the Harvard Extension Alumni Association uses on their website: http://www.dce.harvard.edu/pubs/alum/

And the following archived sites: http://extension.harvard.edu/2003-04/ (top right)

http://extension.harvard.edu/2002-03/ (bottom left)

http://extension.harvard.edu/2001-02/ (top left)

http://extension.harvard.edu/2000-01/ (see it?)

http://dcearc.harvard.edu/extension/1998-99/

http://dcearc.harvard.edu/extension/1999-00/

Also see: http://www.extension.harvard.edu/archives.html for more information. --66.30.117.112 (talk) 20:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

RE: Possible shield misrepresentation

I think you're right. But how do we come to consensus on this issue. It's clear too that the pic on the front page is a DCE tagged photo. The real difference is that one is blue and gold and red. While this one on the front page is not the proper color, so it's possible shield COLOR misrepresentation. Holla213 (talk)

So the question then becomes this: is color misrepresentation a form of misrepresentation?--Extensiontf (talk) 05:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Second, every piece of material that I've ever seen on the extension school has had the blue color (I think it's to represent the evening), and the dean's lapel pen is blue too. It might be considered offensive to some people to have a small group of wikipedians not putting up a photo with the proper color. People work hard in the extension school and sometimes that's what the shield represents. For example, if I wanted to represent the USA wikipage and used a flag that was purple, gold, and green, but left the design and symbols the same, it would not be the american flag; it would be the american flag, but it wouldn't be. The same line of reasoning, if you accept it, applies here. Color misrepresentation or confusion is a big deal (or so trademark offices might claim). --Extensiontf (talk) 05:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that they've changed the logo. I have a question for you extensiontf. Why do you care wether or not "extension studies" is all over the place? I've been looking at your contributions and your edits--I also find all your edits very precise and easy to find or justify--but I also see that you've really only contributed to the extension school website. I don't disagree with your edits, except maybe the one about the house affiliation on the diploma. But why does it matter so much to you that he wiki page is so precise--I mean nobody cares that much about the extension school.--Holla213 (talk) 05:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I second the motion, extensiontf: what's up?! Why do you care about "perfect" representation?--66.30.117.112 (talk) 05:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's like this: in my view, the extension school carries some significant stigma with it because some bad apples misrepresent the silliest little things or whatever the case may be. I don't think that the wiki page should be full of that too. To be honest, I'm an extension student who knows the school inside and out, technically, socially, and however else you want to call it. I've even read the following: The History of the Extension School. It's in Gutman Library. By not mentioning extension studies, or having improper shield representation adds to the general stigmas and stereotypes. Most people don't realize that the official university degree, masters or bachelors or associates, is in extension studies. Extension studies doesn't make sense because extension students do study things, like computer science and literature. But more importantly, there's a movement to end the term extension studies--but there aren't many people who are aware of this term until graduation--and unfortunately, people don't usually come back after they graduate to say hey, "I do study something and it's not that." So if people come to wiki, then they'll say hey, if that's true, then we need to make an intuitive judgment. That's how social change happens: presenting the facts neutrally and not making personal attacks. ^[1]^[2]In the references, you'll see the mentioning of the movement to remove this term, but not enough people know about it or question it. PERHAPS WE SHOULD ADD A NEW SECTION!!!!!!!!!!!! WHOOO HOOOO! --Extensiontf (talk) 05:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Extensionttf: On your talk page you said you are a member of the faculty. SO which is it, faculty or student? --Bbriggs1 (talk) 13:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Bbriggs1: I've never claimed to be a faculty member. I couldn't find the reference of which you just mentioned either. Perhaps you have confused me with another Wikipedian. Best regards:--Extensiontf (talk) 01:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Harvard Division of Continuing Education

The Harvard Division of Continuing Education houses University Extension, Summer School, and Learning in Retirement--all of which have their own shield that represent the entities. On the top right corner of the website, you can find all of the shield for each school: http://dce.harvard.edu/--66.30.117.112 (talk) 20:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, one can find each school's shield on its website:

http://www.summer.harvard.edu

http://www.extension.harvard.edu

http://www.hilr.harvard.edu/ --66.30.117.112 (talk) 20:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Harvard University's naming convention for Extension School Degrees

The school currently awards the following credentials: The school currently awards the following credentials: A.A. in Extension Studies; A.L.B. in Extension Studies; A.L.M. in Extension Studies; and various Certificates in Extension Studies. Most Harvard Extension Students refer to the programs by their acronym: AA, ALB, ALM, CSS, CAS, or HCP.^[3]

The main article doesn't represent these degrees, acronyms, or programs accurately. --Extensiontf (talk) 05:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Above you'll find the proper naming convention for extension school degrees and the reference on the extension school website. This information is non-obvious and necessary for true representation of the extension school degrees. I am a student in the extension school. I love her very much. I want to represent her very well from a nuetral point of view. please don't remove the necessary information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Extensiontf (talk • contribs) 20:48, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to rep the extension school clearly for what it offers. i love the extension school. i've added some notes. people called me a troll. i'm not a troll. this information helps clear up what the degrees are, and their naming convention. this is very pertinent to the extension school page. if people want to know what the school offers, it's right here.

This information doesn't seem to be on the page anymore. I'm not the one who's starting an edit war. I'm trying to represent my school well. I was called a troll. I was also told I was sarcastic. It seems as though the admins of this page think there's a consensus to remove this information. I'm part of the consensus and it's necessary to have on the page. It's the right thing to do.

Why don't we have a discussion about this section and why people don't want it?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Extensiontf (talk • contribs)

The information is already included in the article...Read the edit summaries. --Ave Caesar (talk) 21:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems unclear in the article. Should we leave it as is? I'm in this consesus too. --Extensiontf (talk) 21:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)--Extensiontf (talk) 21:44, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The information is clearly written in the article. I do not know where you're getting at trying to insert this. Firstinline2009 (talk) 02:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

What information? --Extensiontf (talk) 03:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC) Can you be more precise when you discuss Firstinline. Thanks.

The main article doesn't represent these degrees, acronyms, or programs accurately. --Extensiontf (talk) 05:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Extensiontf, please put things at the bottom of the section you are writing in, that way everyone can easily see new additions when they are looking for them. Also, there is a pretty good consensus that the article already reflects what the degrees are in, and that the text that you want added does not belong. --71.233.150.26 (talk) 12:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Diplomas

The language on the diplomas for all extension school degrees are as follows: ALB in Extension Studies; AA in Extension Studies; ALM in Extension Studies. The diplomas don't actually have a field of study on them or one of the three broader categories such as natural sciences, humanities, or social sciences. I'm typing this because under the Undergraduate Degrees section there's ambiguity. Look at the extension school website and one will see that the requirements must be completed in the three fields for the ALB. None of those three areas are listed on the diploma; therefore, all degrees from the extension school are in Extension Studies. Let's make these sentences more clear for true representation of the extension school degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Extensiontf (talk • contribs) 05:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but the transcript still indicates the persons concentration. The ES allows its students to say they concentrated in a certain field rather than saying they majored in "extension studies".

The description of the degrees on this article, I think, are just trying to distinguish the College and ES degrees in order to demean the diplomas. I think its pretty obvious that there isn't going to be a House affiliation on the degree since ES students do not stay in the dorms and the diploma would be signed by the Continuing Education dean. Also, the concentration is written in the transcript and can be used by Students to place on their resumes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firstinline2009 (talk • contribs) 18:48, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The description of the degrees are completely accurate. If you think the words extension studies is designated to distinguish them from the college, you're correct. However, I did not make this designation to them--the university did to avoid any confusion over who graduates from each school.

Well its fine to dinstinguish the ES degrees with the College, but the way the article was going, it seemed like it was used in a deragatory rather than informative fashion. If you really wanted to talk about the degrees, then you should also mention about how it's awarded by the Fellows of Harvard College, the University President's signature is on it, and other ways about how it looks a lot like an AB from HC. I mean but ofcourse you only wanted to mention about how its "different" in order to spot a "poser".Firstinline2009 (talk) 22:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Extension students can't say that they majored in anything. They can say that there area of concentration is humanities, social science, or natural sciences. In which, one can have a field of study designated on their transcripts. If someone asks, "what's your degree in?" The accurate but very awkward answer is "extension studies." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Extensiontf (talk • contribs) 22:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but that is false. It is true that there is no major per se, but there is the choice of having a concentration or a field of study substitute for a major. The school understands that extension studies is not a major and allows its students to say that their degree was a Bachelor of Liberal Arts in one of the three concentrations. Firstinline2009 (talk) 22:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

That's not true. You have been lied to. The Extension School cannot authorize such a statement. The President and Fellows of Harvard College (the same one's who authorize the Extension Degree) currently do not authorize any such thing. Here's the website: http://extension.harvard.edu/2008-09/forms/ext_fsp.pdf "Fields of study are individually designed for students. Each semester, students receive advising on the courses that will count toward their fields, given their unique backgrounds, interests, and future plans. Completing a field of study will not change the degree earned; it will not appear on the diploma, but it will appear on a candidate’s official transcript for graduate school admission committees or prospective employers to review." That means, from what I understand, Extension Students have to say "Extension Studies." it is left to the employer and/or graduate admissions committee to determine if you had a focused area. Where do you get your information about the extension school? I'm sorry, but your misrepresenting the institution. I don't think you should edit these pages unless your going to honestly do so. I take great pride in my extension studies. If you're a student, you should too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.103.142.23 (talk • contribs)

No. It's very true. There aren't majors at Harvard as far as I know--only concentrations. It's not false. You might be confused. Perhaps you should look at the Extension School website. The Degrees awarded are in Extension Studies. There are only concentrations. In the Extension School, it's "area of concentration." Under which, one can have a Field of Study. Both the area of concentration and the field of study are not on the diploma--only on the transcripts. The Extension School understands this very well. The degree is in Extension Studies. Therefore, one can say they studied, "extension studies." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.103.142.23 (talk) 00:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, geez. The point was that even though the diploma says extension studies, the ES allows students to say they've recieved an ALB in X Field or Concentration. No one puts ALB in Extension Studies because its not a real major and the school understands this. Why would they advertise the Professional ALMs as being in Management, IT, etc. if they were just in Extension Studies? I am not misrepresenting the school and I highly, highly doubt that you attend the school considering your sarcastic attitude. Firstinline2009 (talk) 03:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

It's always a good way to combat sarcasm with starting your paragraph, "oh, geez." If you doubt I study at the extension school because of sarcasm, then it applies to you too. So you probably doubt yourself, that's why your so defensive over the truth. I rep. my school to the fullest. I think, you should read the extension school website very carefully. Look at a commencement program: it doesn't have any concentrations or anything near it. The Extension School knows this very well. The Harvard Extension School, whether you talk to Lynn R., Mark. O, Suzzanne S., or whoever else, does NOT ALLOW FOR YOU TO PUT ALB IN X. It's clear that it should say, "ALB in Extension Studies." Anything else is a misrepresentation of the degree. I like my Extension Studies. Some people don't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.94.191.89 (talk) 07:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

You rep. your school to the fullest? Its obvious that you are trying to demean the school with your false representation. Any commencement graduation record will show you that besides the two liberal arts degrees all others are awarded in their professional field, i.e. ALM in Management, IT, etc. You are seriously being stubborn for the sake of trolling. Adding on some of the names of the advisors does not make you a student. The concentration is what counts and is what the student earns. That is what students place on their resume. Firstinline2009 (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a commencement book in front of me. go to the commencement office and get one. It just says Extension Studies. You really don't know what you're talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.117.112 (talk) 16:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/06.07/20-degreechart.html Like I said, besides the two liberal arts degrees, every other degree is an ALM in X Field. Firstinline2009 (talk) 17:32, 15 June 2008 (UTC) I'll photograph the commencement book.

I have to agree with Firstinline2009 on this one. Even Forbes, which by any standard is a reliable source, refers to a degree from HES as a degree from Harvard University. http://www.forbes.com/finance/mktguideapps/personinfo/FromPersonIdPersonTearsheet.jhtml?passedPersonId=928728 --71.233.150.26 (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)I know it's from Harvard University. Nobody disputes that. Thanks for the input.

These links are not from the Harvard Commencement Office. They are just online papers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.103.142.23 (talk) 18:49, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I reffered to the Harvard Commencement book. I will take a photograph and post it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.103.142.23 (talk) 18:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, this is being selective. As I said before, whenever a citation is used to demean the school, it's somehow official and cannot be edited. But whenever a link is used to counter any misconceptions, it's somehow not reliable. I think there is a clear bias here to disregard information about the school that may be deemed too "positive". I found the link on the Commencement Wesbite: http://commencement.harvard.edu/background/ Click on Harvard Degrees Conferred as see for yourself.Firstinline2009 (talk) 20:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, FIRSTINLINE2009. You need to be more precise. The link you're providing is a Gazzette link. Not an official Harvard Commencement Website. --Extensiontf (talk) 21:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

- Correction** the link you want me to click on is a gazette link, not a commencement one.--Extensiontf (talk) 21:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

It is a link provided by the Official Commencement website. It links to a Gazette article that features info provided by the Commencement office. What part of this are you not understanding? What other links are there? I have checked all over the Commencement website and the only information they provide on degrees conferred is this link. How can this not be offered as official proof that you are wrong about the degrees? Here is the more current one: http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2008/06.05/42-degrees.html I dare you to contest this by reporting it to an official of Harvard. Firstinline2009 (talk) 22:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the dare. It's not a commencement office official link. It's a gazzette link. Can you provide the Commencement office link or the Extension School link that says it clearly. Thanks. --128.103.142.23 (talk) 23:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, first off the Extension School speaks of its professional degrees as ALMs in Management, IT, etc.. Secondly, this wiki article already clearly states this as well. Third, I provided a Gazette Article that was provided to me by the Commencement Official website. The Gazette is not just an online newsources, its also printed out for every student to see. Last, what is wrong with adding the article as proof? There is no POV in the article as it comes straight from the horses mouth. I think that you just want to be selective so you can pander off your view of the school. Firstinline2009 (talk) 02:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a nice thought. We are disputing that the commencement book only lists them as extension studies. I'll take pictures of the book very soon and post them here. Can you prove that there are degrees that are not in "extension studies." Here's what the Extension Website says: http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2008-09/programs/alm/help/#resume. And the commencement book does not list IT, Management, etc. My view of the extension school is that she's aweseome! You're the one calling people troll and constantly making accusations of sarcasm and what not.

From the FAQ on the dce.harvard site -- Is the ALM a real Harvard degree?

Yes. ALM graduates are Harvard alumni and alumnae, and the program of study is in every way as challenging as that of graduate degree programs in other Harvard schools.

Now, whether "standard" is the business school, law school, or ed school/divinity school is up for debate... The Ed school admits about 50% of the applicatant to their graduate program (accorind to US News); hardly the College standard. I would imagine that GSAS serves as the standard, and many graduate students (ALM candidates) take GSAS coursework (there's some sort of arrangement for ALM candidates). I also believe that many ALB candidates, with high GPAs, take College coursework.

Open Enrollment

The part that mentions the Extension School as being open enrollement is a bit off the mark. Yes, when simply taking classes there is open enrollement, but in order to become a degree canidate, you have to formally apply and meet admissions standards. Could we somehow emphasis that while HES is an open enrollment school, it's degree programs require a formal admission policy?

Yes, but I'm not sure becoming a degree candidate is very hard. The requirements are four classes, one of which is the equivalent of freshman composition, with a B average or better, and an essay. In theory, that is pretty open. JRP 16:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

You are slightly off base, JRP. As an Extension Student, I am not here to pick on what you've written, but to say that just because "in theory" it sounds like open enrollment doesn’t make it so. The expository writing class is the real indicator if you will make it at HES and it is not the easiest thing to pass. The Extension School makes it to where that class weeds people out. The other requirement is to maintain a minimum of a 2.5 GPA in your coursework. Now getting a 2.5 does not always indicate that you are a shoe in. Maybe on a slow academic year and a good written essay will they let you in with a 2.5-2.8, but they're really looking for a 3.0. I know that there is a stigma against the extension school for granting people access to Harvard resources if they pass a couple classes and pay for tuition. But the only real benefiting factor about the extension school comes when you maintain a 3.5 GPA after three semesters. From there you get special student status into the College, ample aid and scholarships, access to Harvard College's Career services, research assistant positions, and a host of other things. Its really a work your way up program. Work hard and you get rewarded. There are some that use the Extension School as a community college; they work hard to get admitted and then just lax themselves into getting their degree with a 2.0/2.5 GPA. Others take advantage of everything it has to offer. So it's really what you make of it. Sorry to be longwinded about this. And I hope that people won’t mistake my apologizing for the Extension School as trying to compare it to the College. It is in no way comparable to the College in prestige or admission standards. But while saying that, it is also in no way shape of form, a diploma mill similar to Devry or the University of Phoenix. I would compare its standards to a bottom top tier state school/private school, where the transfer GPA is a 2.5 minimum. Simple as that.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't disparaging the extension school. I am a student there, after all. But I also want to make sure we keep the article balanced. JRP 05:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have attended a couple of state school's: UVA; UNC; NCSU; and U of Florida - all of which proved to be much less challenging to Harvard Extension School.

(I went to UNC and NCSU too, and they were much easier than HES).

Well yeah I mean they are still Harvard caliber classes. The point is that if you can handle the work you can be admitted. The process of elimination is stunning. There will be like 20 students going for the ALB and only like half make it. Notable Alumni from the program are President of Colombia, Alvaro Uribe, and his VP Francisco Santos Calderon.

I actually think the graduation rate is far less than 50%, from a conversation I had with one of the faculty last week. JRP 16:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add to this a bit -- the school offers open enrollment classes. Other professional schools at Harvard do the same (e.g., the Business school, the Ed school). A point of distinction is that almost all (but not all) of the classes are open for non students (i.e., non-degree candidate) to take. Some are closed, but those are the exception. Admission to a degree program is not open. Each of the schools at Harvard establishes its own criteria for admission. From the ALM office, fewer than 10% become candidates (although no mention of how many apply), and of those about 50% successfully complete a thesis. From those students there are three hurdles for graduating -- completing the proseminar (which looks like the weed-out class), successfully submitting a thesis proposal and finding a Harvard faculty member to advise on the research, and actually completing an acceptable thesis. The first step, along with transcripts and essays, are required for actual admission. I cannot commend on the undergraduate or certificate admission criteria; however, given criteria exist beyond a high-school diploma, the school cannot be considered "open".

You're right considering that only 12,000 people have gotten either an ALB, ALM or Certificate in the whole 100 years of HES's existence. That's only about 120 a year considering the college graduates four times that much each year.

There is no comparison between the traditional bachelor's program at Harvard College and the non-traditional bachelor's program at the Harvard Extension School. Before all of my fellow Extension-ites pass out in disbelief, allow me to explain my point. Back in 2000 I worked as a student assistant at the Office of the Governing Boards, Loeb House. I had a very candid discussion with one of the Fellows regarding the Extension School and the school's status at Harvard. For the most part, the President & Fellows of Harvard College do feel that the degree programs at the Extension School are a strong component of Harvard's philosophical mission. Unlike most other Ivy League institutions, Harvard is the ONLY university to offer a true, world-class education to academically-enabled non-traditional, adult learners. While Columbia and Penn do have programs aimed at non-traditional students, the cost and slim evening course offerings are prohibitive to many working adults. According to this Fellow, the primary goal of the Corporation, as far as the Extension School is concerned, is to keep the programs affordable to adult students that may already be over-burdened with a variety of real life expenses. The fundamental difference between Harvard College and the Harvard Extension School is NOT in the curriculum (as the ALB is heavily modeled after the traditional AB)but in the cost of attendance. If you compare the cost of attendance at Harvard College with the cost of attendance at the Harvard Extension School, you'll immediately notice a stark differnce. That difference is of phenomenal benefit to the academically-enabled non-traditional student. We will earn a bachelor's degree from Harvard University, study with a world-class faculty, have access to a variety of resources (libraries, email accounts, facilities, many clubs/organizations etc.) and we will become alumni of Harvard University, just as anyone else graduating from the University. For the non-traditional student that wants a world-class education and desires to be a part of an instituion steeped in tradition, there is no better opportunity on the planet. I think many HES students fail to understand that the "ivory tower" is still heavily geared towards the traditional student, those young men and women just graduating from high school. A 25, 30 or 35 year old that hasn't completed a bachelor's degree will have far fewer options than a 17 year old just graduating from high school. Most often, the only viable options for older studnts are community colleges, for-profit universities and technical schools. For Harvard to present such an opportunity to non-traditional learners is outstanding and should be commended. The degree programs at Harvard do require a great sacrifice from the non-traditional learner that most traditional students may NEVER appreciate. WE Extension-ites must realize this and turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the elitist views of the Harvard Crimson. To be admitted to the ALB program, one must maintain a B average in their first three courses, complete the application and submit a satisfactory essay. This may be easy for some, but quite difficult for others, especially for those being several years removed from formal education. Perhaps the greatest sacrifice, in my opinion, is the logistical and financial sacrifice required of those wishing to enter the ALB Program. The Extension School DOES NOT offer financial aid to non-admitted students. Meaning, one must pay for at least the first three courses for admission. If one doesn't meet the GPA requirement with the first three courses, that person must then pay for additional courses or completely abandon their quest for admission. With tuition, books and supplies, the first three courses, could easily top 3K (books are very expensive). Additionally, if one wants to attend Harvard in the evening, but does not live in the Boston area, one would need to find housing on their own. Since HES does not provide financial aid, most adult learners would need some sort of employment (or have a wealthy benefactor) in order to support themselves. This usually means that one would have to work, and often work more than part-time, in addition to taking the 3 courses, getting re-acquainted with formal academics and maintaining honors-level grades at Harvard. Now add to this a mortgage, a wife, children, etc. and you now have an admissions process that self-denies those that aren't financially and academically prepared to study at the Harvard level. What's more, the admissions process also eliminates those that aren't efficient multi-taskers, being able to juggle a job, a family and an Ivy League education. In short, the admissions process at HES is indeed very clever. Any person that's able to conquer all of the above challenges has earned the right to be called a Harvard man or woman. We, Extension-ites, shouldn't focus on the differences between HES and the College. They are two very different programs that have been designed to meet the academic needs of two very different audiences. I'm a member of both the Harvard Clubs of Boston and New York City and I can attest, first hand, that there is no HES stigma amongst alumni. In reality, must non-HES alumni know very little about the Extension degree and certificate programs. What's more, many non-HES alumni aren't even aware that such non-traditional programs even exist at Harvard. I find myself explaining the program to fellow alumni that have never even heard of the ALB program. Their response after the explanation is almost always one of pleasant surprise and admiration. A handful of people that I've met at the Club have asked me to speak with their non-traditional relatives about the program. I'm proud to say that I've stolen at least two would-be applicants away from Columbia's School of General Studies as they chose HES instead. What's most amazing is that alumni, especially alumni of the College, QUICKLY abandon their sense of entitlement and elitism once they enter the work force. They quickly realize that while Harvard is an incredibly well-respected institution, they are nonetheless on equal footing with their peers from a variety of different institutions and educational backgrounds. In conclusion, Extension-ites should be proud of their outstanding accomplishments. I hate to burst the bubble of those in doubt, but Extension School degree candidates are fully-recognized Harvard alumni. Unlike the College, the ALB program assumes that its degree candidates already have the career focus and maturity necessary for success. The College prepares its youngsters for the work force and provides direction, discipline and social components necessary for their success. That's what they pay 40K + a year for. That's what the parents of these youngesters expect. They expect Harvard College to provide an environment for academic and social maturation that will carry their child into the next stages of their lives. So what many believe the Extension programs are "missing" in comparison to Harvard College, I see as simply the difference in audience. At 25, 30, 35 years old, with responsibilities, the word "college" no longer has the traditional meaning. We won't be playing frisbee in the quad or participating in study groups in the dorms, attending college parties or playing intercollegiate sports. Perhaps for some, the absence of these things puts the HES experience into question. For these people, I believe they would be better suited with a traditional college experience as they obviously desire the social aspects of the traditional college experience. For most others however, being a HES degree student includes rushing out of work to make that 5:30PM class, becoming quite skilled at finding a parking spot in Harvard Square, making it home in time to put their children to sleep, spending all night in the library doing research and working on papers, buying that jumbo cup of coffee to stay alert in class, etc. It's a different experience and we should relish it as it is our own and has been very much a part of Harvard for over one hundred years.

Recent edits

The admissions process is quite demanding, and the facts stated in recent edits are true, as supported by links in the "external links" section. --71.233.150.26 (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't make any sense. If someone adds examples of Extension Students performing at the level (and sometimes surpassing) their College peers, it's POV. If someone wants to add citations of the Extension School having a low matriculation rate of people going into a degree program and an even lower graduation rate, it's POV. But if anyone adds anything that demeans the school, then somehow it's cited material and cannot be edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firstinline2009 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Controversy links

I have removed two of the citation links in the "Controversy" section that were in relation to Extension School students posing as Harvard College students. These two links misrepresent the issue. The first was a man that claimed to be a Harvard Law School graduate, and the correction in the article says that he was not even an Extension School student. That's not applicable. The second is a case when a Harvard Extension school student pilfered a Harvard College student's identity to enroll in a Harvard College club. That's not applicable. These are not innocent claims, but rather deliberate acts of fraud, and so don't match up with what this paragraph is saying. I have left the third article and the line intact since there may be some truth to it, though there is inadequate information to know how he was misrepresented. In summary: An Extension School Student can represent himself as a Harvard University student. (Though, I suspect that he needs to be a degree candidate. I'm not sure if an open enrollment student can make that claim, we'd have to find a policy.) However, an Extension School student (or a Medical School student or a Law School student) cannot represent himself as a Harvard College student. But that should be common sense, I suspect. I'm not sure this section makes that clear. JRP (talk) 00:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your interpretation and removal of those sources. I moved the info another user added into a "controversy" section because it didn't seem to fit in the section it had been placed yet was sourced. I also agree that the section needs to make certain issues clearer. --Ave Caesar (talk) 00:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I just cannot see how the current sections on the Extension page are legitimate considering the citations used. The controversy section is full of misconceptions. The three articles cited are about rare cases of students taking a class or two at the Extension School in order to use their affiliation to pose as College Students. These people already had extensive criminal records and were taking advantage of the open enrollment courses. They do not reflect on the Degree Candidates, who are FULL members of the Harvard Community. It is a lie to state that Harvard degree candidates at the Extension School are not real Harvard Students. Secondly, the person who posted those examples of "posers" did not do their research because most of the activities those posers have been caught infiltrating are OPEN to degree candidates. There are several Extension Students who have matriculated into the degree programs involved in student organizations, including political campus groups. The Graduate Council of the University has TWO Extension School students representing the school. Why would they be allowed to do so if Extension School students were "not real Harvard Students". I could understand if the user was trying to distinguish between Harvard College/GSAS students and non-degree Extension Students, but this was apparently not his intention. The sections seem like examples of malicious trolling and hiding behind the citations is no excuse to keep them on the page.

Also, why is it a controversy if Hillary Duff decided to fudge up her affiliation with Harvard even though she was never formally admitted into a degree program? She is in the same boat as the other posers who have nothing to do with the overall degree seeking student body (or non-degree seeking for that matter). Firstinline2009

The controversy section should be moved to Hillary Duff's page. It is her controversy, not the school's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anytime5 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Other points; the Student Life section seems like it is filled with sarcasm. The use of quotations around the words "degree candidates", "trial" seem to imply that one shouldn't take HES students seriously. Also, the description of the library seems to suggest that it's not much of a library and it doesn't even need to be invoked as one, etc. The whole section just seems fixed on implying that HES is not a legitimate school at Harvard, which is far from the truth. I just cannot see how these new additions are helping the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firstinline2009 (talk • contribs) 01:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ivy League

You dislike the citations used from the Crimson, but probably approve of the ones used in the controversy section. "False legitimacy"? If it's a part of the FAS, accredited by the same association as the College, and is recognized by the school, how can it not be legitimate? Also, the classes may be open enrollment but admission to a degree program still requires a formal admissions process. While this process is not the same, or as rigorous as the College's, it's still one recognized by the University. I think that you just hate the school in general and don't want to accept the fact that the University recognizes a continuing education program. It's obvious trolling, dude. Firstinline2009 (talk) 22:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Cccdddext, the page was locked by an administrator due to recent multiple reversions and potential vandalism. I agree with you that some of the points are over-stated, though your own comments indicate that you are also not an unbiased editor. So, I suppose in this sense, the block worked. The truth is, that there are neither good references calling HES "ivy league", but neither is there good references to call it a "community college". But, to your point, I've removed that wording until we can find a better source for one of those two positions. (Also, I moved this paragraph down per talk page conventions., just to keep the conversations clearer.) JRP (talk) 23:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

As an extension student finishing his ALB (after leaving school for 10 years), I have to say that there is ample evidence that the program is a valued part of the Harvard community. I was skeptical myself but have since come to feel that the Extension School is viewed by the larger Harvard community as a way to provide a path to scholarship to those whose life situation diverges from what is required for a traditional program aimed at those who have recently graduated high school. My professors have never made me feel like less of a student nor have they made any sort of allowance for extension students. The academic standards are high regardless of how the kids at the College feel. I know this because I left another Ivy-League school in my third year and never made it back. Although a few people use the opportunity to take classes at Harvard as a way to claim a Harvard credential for themselves, the truth is that examples of this kind of behavior are very very rare. Even the Hillary Duff incident was a Crimson-created press storm that relied less on the facts and mostly on simulated outrage. The article itself should present only the verifiable facts about the school, the program specifics, and the degree requirements. Anything else is simply a reflection of POV.Nrs999 (talk) 05:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

RE:Ivy League?

Dear Mr. or Ms. Whoever started the above mentioned section: Ivy League?. How dare you question Harvard as an Ivy League institution!

Harvard University is an Ivy League institution. look for yourself Harvard University houses FAS or otherwise known as The Faculty of Arts and Sciences. look here FAS houses the Division of Continunig Education or DCE. now look here DCE houses the Extension School. then look hereHarvard University also issues the following degrees: AA, ALB, ALM, and other certificates in Extension Studies. final premise You have no choice to accept the fact that an AA in Extension Studies is also an Ivy League degree. I'm sorry you're upset by this situation. Perhaps you should contact the university and protest. In the meantime, I'll get my Ivy League Associates degree. Your comments are unfounded, and quite frankly, offensive to many people who've had to come to the extension school for whatever reason: working full-time, no money for college (don't forget financial aid is still pretty new), could not take the SAT, did not initially want to go to college or whatever. You seem to be talking out thin air. Let me clarify: you didn't list any of your sources.I can sit here and put together pretty nice sources throughout this page. The Harvard Extension School offers Ivy League Degrees. I'm sorry you disagree. Let's put the wording back up on the page where it properly belongs. --Extensiontf (talk) 01:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)--Extensiontf (talk) 01:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to sign. I am still pretty new.

In response to the term, "Rigorous." The term is relative to person who applies him or her self. For example, it might be hard or rigorous to earn three B's at Harvard Extension School. It might not be. However, Harvard Extension School uses the same grading criteria as Harvard University. It's in the Faculty Manual at the Extension School. So perhaps, Harvard University is not "Rigorous." That's your opinion. Now, is getting three B's in a course tough? Well, let's suppose you bag groceries for a living and you don't make enough money to really pay for the class and have enough money to eat. Then it's pretty tough I'd say to get a B or get anything other than food. Another example might be as follows: let's suppose you didn't go to a great highschool, and you really don't have qualification to go to another institution. The courses will still be tough nonetheless. I agree it's hard to say what rigorous is, perhaps, formal might be a better word. --Extensiontf (talk) 01:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

But realize that some universities allow athletes, children of alumni, affirmative action, etc to allow people to attend who normally wouldn't qaulify so don't make HES out to be nothing. It's quite real. It was here before you. It will be here when you're gone. Thanks for chatting. --Extensiontf (talk) 01:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Smithers! Release the hounds! Get 'em Extensiontf. What are you, a lawyer or something? I'm with Extensiontf on this one. Harvard Extension offers Ivy League Degrees. Put it back on the page. --Holla213 (talk) 02:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Guys, finally the HES publicly declared on its website that it is indeed providing an Ivy League experience in an Ivy League classroom. It is obvious to mention its affiliation with the Ivy League however I don't think it's necessary to make a whole new section saying "Ivy League". Mixtervn (talk) 14:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no conflict of interest

This is the most accurate and exact article I have seen on any cont.ed. program. A little too exact if you ask me. A prospect doesn't even have to go the actual HES website considering that most of the info provided is from the original wesbite. If anyone wants to further inquire about the degree programs or other opportunities at HES, they can find it themselves with the help of these links. But it seems like people are posting all sorts of point by point information in a deliberate manner as if to infer that the programs are somehow inferior to the other programs at Harvard. No one is making the case that the ES is somehow equal or greater to the College, yet I have never seen such an attempt by people to counter this fabricated claim. I think that there are just certain editors bent on demeaning the school by misrepresenting cited information and adding POV. Any editing of POV or checking on misrepresented material is somehow deemed either a conflict of interest or vandalism. Firstinline2009 (talk) 21:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes there is conflict of interest. You seem bent on your way of having this page. I want relevant information to the degree in case people want to understand the Extension School better. I really love the extesion school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Extensiontf (talk • contribs) 21:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

You really love it huh? Is that why you're bent on claiming that ALL degrees from the ES are in Extension Studies when its really just the two liberal arts degrees? I've shown you evidence from the Commencement website itself that counters your claim and you still want to fight it. Seriously, it's pretty obvious that you are trolling around in here and editing as you please to demean the school. Firstinline2009 (talk) 21:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I cannot find a link to the commencement website anywhere on this discussion. please repost it so i can go and visit and see how true your claims are.--Extensiontf (talk) 21:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not a commencement link. it's a gazzette link. please show me the commencement link. --Extensiontf (talk) 21:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no Commencement link. All links on the Commencement wesbite lead to the Gazette. There are Gazette articles all over the OFFICIAL COMMENCEMENT WEBSITE. Are you somehow saying all of these aren't official either? Dude, seriously, the trolling is getting to be a little to much. You really need to stop.Firstinline2009 (talk) 22:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

http://commencement.harvard.edu/background/ Click on Harvard Degrees Conferred. Firstinline2009 (talk) 21:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again. But you should provide an official commencement website article with the degrees. Thanks again. --Extensiontf (talk) 23:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The harvard.edu website and Harvard Gazzette are managed by the same office: Harvard’s Office of News and Public Affairs is the liaison between the University and the news media and the general public. The office also manages the University’s Web site, www.harvard.edu; the production of the Harvard University Gazette and a wide range of specialty publications. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.143.160 (talk) 00:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

the dispute is over what the commencement office lists in their book; not a news link. i will provide pictures of the commencement book. i think one reference that could solve this dilemma is the extesion website. --Extensiontf (talk) 01:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Good source. I hadn't thought of that. SamanthaG (talk) 08:31, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Misuse of the Name

It should be mentioned that it is fairly common in the Boston area for people, sometimes politicians, to say that they went to Harvard, because they took classes at the Extension School. This is an intentional misrepresentation. That is the issue at hand, not the quality of the school. I once took a course at HES and found it to be excellent.

I might also add that many of the students are using it as an evening school, that is, not to get a degree but to get further education for their current career. The course I took was a computer science course, and most of the students, like me, already had a college degree, were not seeking another degree, and were already working in the field. These days, that is not uncommon and I wouldn't characterize them as non-traditional students.Bostoner (talk) 00:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

--I disagree with the idea that it's dishonest for people who have studied at Harvard Extension to claim to have gone to Harvard. They did. They did in fact study at Harvard. Hopefully the don't claim to have received a degree, though, unless they did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.179.59 (talk) 05:06, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Logo

{{editprotected}} Administrator, can you please replace the logo (in the Infobox with this one, the corrected logo for the extension school: Image:Extensionflag.jpg. Should be no controversy there and I'd like to see Extensiontf's good faith attempt to improve the article followed through on. (Though I agree that he/she may be a single-purpose account and it seems that most of the contributors here lately don't have a neutral point of view...) The only difference between the logos is color scheme. Some comments above indicate that the red color scheme is the HDCE logo, not the HES logo, but it seems that HDCE has moved to the new colors too.JRP (talk) 12:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Done Seems uncontroversial enough. Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 12:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Associate in Arts/Associate of Arts - Request for edit to fully protected page

| |It is requested that an edit be made to this fully protected page (see protection log). I request that the the wikilink "Associate in Arts" on the first line in the undergraduate degree section be changed to "Associate of Arts", so that it links to the correct page. --Bbriggs1 (talk) 17:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

RE: Associate in Arts/Associate of Arts - Request for edit to fully protected page

I request that this request not be granted. Please look at the Harvard Extension School Website: How to represent the extension studies degree on a resume The website says "Associate in Arts (AA) or Bachelor of Arts (ALB), in Extension Studies, Harvard University."^[4] Does everyone agree? --Holla213 (talk) 20:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikilink should be linked to "Associate's degree" rather than either of the two options listed above. Is vs. Of ....symantics 76.119.143.160 (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. "Associates Degree" works --Bbriggs1 (talk) 14:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Trying too hard...

Why does the article constantly make references to how it is treated just like any other School at Harvard? The Law school page does not state that students participate in commencement "with all of the other schools at Harvard." - it's unnecessary.

Also, the whole POV of this article seems to try to legitimize the Extension School rather then just describe it. I think most of the wording could be improved. Just my two cents 68.13.5.85 (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.extension.harvard.edu/alumni/about/notable.jsp. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 05:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Open Enrollment vs. Open Admissions

Just a note on phrasing, but Harvard Extension School does not have an open admissions but rather has an open enrollment policy that allows members of the general public to enroll in courses offered by the Extension School without going through a formal admissions process or declaring that they wish to receive a degree from the school. Students that wish to pursue a degree through the Extension school still have to meet the admissions requirements which variety on the basis of the degree but typically require B or higher in certain courses taken through Harvard Extension School or Harvard Summer School. - Darkstar949 12:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Controversies

Controversies section re-added. Edited out due to concerns about notability, but these cases all made national news (google "Abe Liu" and you'll see it appeared on ABC, Fox, The Daily Mail, the Huffington Post, and in Chinese-language news, so I think concerns about notability are misplaced. This is also a constant subject of discussion on Harvard's campus and sparked concerns about safety (e.g. in the case of Mr. Godelia, who had been convicted of a crime previously). Perhaps the section can be rephrased? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.152.107 (talk) 13:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC) Only safety issue is the College kids letting someone sleep in the dorms and allowing him in without a card. Liu did not break into anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.189.124.138 (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Having the case make national news doesn't make it notable in and of itself and even then it would be more applicable in the Harvard University or Harvard College articles as opposed to the to the Extension School article as there have been a number of fake "students" over the years that were unaffiliated with even the Extension School that attempted to pass themselves off as Harvard College students or Harvard University graduates. Darkstar949 (talk) 13:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, Liu forged a Harvard ID, which is a safety concern, even if he didn't "break into anything." Secondly, if he wasn't a safety concern, the University police wouldn't have escorted him off-campus. Thirdly, who are the non-Extension school students who impersonated Harvard College students? Links? And finally, the most important point: if national and widespread news coverage doesn't make something notable, what does? This edit sounds like a biased effort to protect the Extension School's brand more than anything, as opposed to being an objective encyclopedic entry.(talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.102.70.241 (talk) 06:54, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say that Liu wasn't a safety concern for the Harvard College students at the time, I'm saying that the event in and of itself is not notable and as a whole, non-degree candidate students attending the Extension School and passing themselves off as Harvard College (or GSAS, or HBS, etc) students in and of itself is not notable because it is not something that defines the school as a whole. Additionally, a quick search of all of the Harvard schools shows an overall lack of "controversies" sections so why is the Extension School unique enough that it needs to be the only one of all of the schools to have its own section? In regards people who are impersonating Harvard students, there are example out there of people who forged their transcripts to get in (Adam Wheeler) and there are ones that lied about attending Harvard (Kashif Parvaiz (technically claimed to be attending graduate school at Harvard)) in general and yet these events do not tend to show up in the other Harvard articles. Darkstar949 (talk) 13:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Chiming in late, but I think it has a place here. It was a huge deal, and merits a mention. If anything, it is representative of a larger phenomenon of ES students passing themselves as College students. I think I'll add it back in the context of the larger phenomenon (sourced, of course).

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 23:42, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Curriculum

User:Aua and Anon have been having a bit of an edit war regarding a bit of text dealing with the curriculum of undergraduate Extension students. I have put in some slightly revised text that I think should address Aua's concern's. Firstly, Anon is using promotional material published by the Extension School. This is acceptable per WP:ABOUTSELF so long as it meets several criteria. The only one that may be questionable is item 1, which wants to ensure that it is not an exceptional claim. Given that the article has other sources that indicate that an undergraduate degree from the Extension School is designed to be comparable with an undergraduate degree issued by the College, I think it is safe to say that this is not an exceptional claim. Secondly, since the College no longer has a "core curriculum," I've slightly reworded the disputed text to eliminate the ambiguity. --Briancua (talk) 21:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

It's misleading. That's my main objection, and I think it tries to draw a parallel that just isn't there. For instance, one of the supposed college requirements is "writing-intensive classes." There is no such requirement in the College. Moreover, saying undergraduate degrees are based on those offered in the College would imply the associate degree is based on the College's curriculum. That, again, is false; the College doesn't offer such degrees. There is no reason to include such statements. Let's focus on the facts here. Making comparisons is not our job, especially when they are so wrong.

I see this article coming under a coordinated and massive anon promotional vandalism. I think it might be worth a semi-protect and roll-back of all recent changes.

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 21:56, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I think perhaps you are a bit oversensitive. I, for one, see no POV in your recent edit changing "Students who wish to earn degrees must be formally admitted to Harvard University" to "Students who wish to earn degrees must be formally admitted to the Extension School." One is simply more precise than the other. There are other schools within the University, the GSE or the GSAS, for example, that allow students to take courses without being accepted in a degree program. In the text I quoted above, would you call it a POV violation if it was in the Graduate School of Education's article and not this one?

You say you want to focus on the facts. That's fine, but per WP:Verifiability the content of an article is "determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors." There are two sources that compare the undergraduate program at the College to the undergraduate program at the Extension School. Where is your source that says the comparison is incorrect? Also, simply because the College does not offer an Associate's degree does not mean that the curriculum is not based upon the College's curriculum. After all, an Associate's degree "is often equivalent to the first two years of a four-year college or university degree." I don't see any of this as "massive" or "vandalism." There are some very minor, very reasonable, and well sourced additions. I disagree that any level of protection in needed. --Briancua (talk) 04:10, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Lead

I'm reverting at edit by Finelinebilly per WP:Lead: "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies" (my emphasis). This paragraph probably should have been added when the history section was expanded a few weeks ago, but, as we all know, [[WP::Wikipedia is a work in progress]]. --Briancua (talk) 18:49, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Brian, I agree with you: Wikipedia is one giant work in progress.

Although I'm not sure I follow your argument for why HES's history should appear in the lead; would you please clarify? I think that based on Wikipedia's prescription for constructing the lead, the key word is "IS." (Bill Clinton would be so proud). That is, the lead should describe why something IS notable, rather than why is WAS notable. If you turn to the other schools within Harvard, you will not find any detailed history in the lead. In fact, the Harvard College lead is literally two sentences long, despite its extensive history. I believe that this style lead is important because most people turn to Wikipedia for a terse understanding of what a subject/concept is. They know where and how to delve deeper if interested. Just my two cents. Finelinebilly

If you look at the section in bold above, you will see that in addition to establishing the notability of an article, the lead should also summarize it. A significant portion of this article is spent talking about the history of the school and thus a brief overview is appropriate for the lead.--Briancua (talk) 19:18, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Brian, I'm not going to engage in an edit war; I'm hoping someone else will chime in on this point. You say your paragraph attempts to summarize the "most important points," but I believe it's far too detailed to constitute summary. Finelinebilly

Billy, can you please sign your posts by typing out four tilde symbols: ~~~~ ? Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 20:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree, Briancua. In fact, I don't see what was wrong with the material that has been removed from this article as it seemed to be a reasonable summary suitable for the lead. ElKevbo (talk) 20:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

ElKevbo, I'm not sure I follow you. Would you mind being more specific as to what you agree/don't agree with? 66.65.48.135 (talk) 20:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)Finelinebilly

I agree with Briancua that "[a] significant portion of this article is spent talking about the history of the school and thus a brief overview is appropriate for the lead." ElKevbo (talk) 21:13, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Then help me to reconcile something: why does no other entry for any of the 12 Harvard schools include detailed history in the lead? For instance HC's lead says that the school is "the oldest institution of higher learning," but does not give specific dates, names places. These facts should be reserved for the history section. 66.65.48.135 (talk) 21:23, 19 August 2013 (UTC)Finelinebilly

I guess just because no one has done it yet. I haven't looked at all of them, or at any of them in depth, but if there is a substantial portion of their history in the article it should be reflected in the lead. --Briancua (talk) 02:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:LEAD, WP:SOCK, WP:PROMOTION and other violations..

...where do I start? This article is going down the drain.

There were anon edits by a suspected sock. Sock refused WP:BRD, and decided to violate WP:3R (true story, check edit history). The consensus intro was reached a fair while back. If you want to add things, you are free to discuss here.

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 21:13, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism in this entry represents a more substantial and fundamental problem between the Extension School and the rest of the Harvard community. Harvard College students seem to feel as though Extension undervalues their achievements, while many Extension students feel the constant need to compare themselves to the College students. As the wise Lisa Simpson once said, "the something of the something isn't the anything of the anything." There are many similarities, as well as synonymies in the education received by both Extension and College students, but the schools serve different populations. Therefore, it is best to stick to the facts.

The degrees conferred by Extension are "Associate of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies," "Bachelor of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies," and "Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies." To say that Extension confers degrees "in Extension Studies" in the header is a bit misleading as it does not list the complete degree title. The complete names of the degrees are listed under "Undergraduate Degrees" and "Graduate Degrees."

The "in Extension Studies" is strictly a formality that is rooted in tradition and does not actually describe the degrees that Extension confers; "Extension Studies" explains how the degree was earned but is still misleading because Extension degree candidates can and do earn credits as special students through Harvard College and GSAS, as well through partaking in INDR independent studies projects led by Harvard faculty, and by taking courses at the Harvard Summer School. In 2009, Dean Shinagel and the Commission on Continuing Education attempted to remove these three ambiguous words, but to no avail. [1] Therefore, the fact is that currently "in Extension Studies" is part of the degree title, but is not the full degree title.

But it is worth noting that degree candidates at Extension are not conferred diplomas from the Extension School; they earn diplomas from Harvard University that (if conferred today) would be signed by President Faust, Dean Smith (FAS) and Dean Lambert. Additionally, Extension graduates are full-fledged alumni of Harvard University, as well as the Extension School. I think that this distinction can be a tough for Harvard College alumni to accept because they feel as though Extension alumni somehow devalue their accomplishments. The numbers, though, prove otherwise. The total Extension degrees conferred is minuscule compared to the other Harvard schools. There is a reason why under "Admission to Degree Programs" the Extension School mentions that entrance requires one's ability to "do honors-level work at Harvard." It's not easy and there is much self-selection at play. So I do not feel that Harvard College students should feel threatened by degree candidates.

There are thousands of open-enrollment Extension students, though, (cough cough Abe Liu) who can rightly claim that they are "students of Harvard." The Extension School serves far more open-enrollemnt students than it does degree candidates; these are undisputed facts. This then becomes tough for Extension degree candidates to accept, but it is still a fact. This is also an area where Extension degree candidates/alumni and College degree candidates/alumni should be able to see eye to eye; neither wants to his/her hard work diminished by people with superficial interests in studying at Harvard.← -Finelinebilly, ALB 2014

I, for one, agree with Finelinebilly completely. We should just stick to facts regardless of how ES or College students feel. Recent anon edits have been trying to emphasise the degrees at the expense of the courses in the entry. I don't agree with that because the school's mission is to provide continuing education and open-enrollment- a very small number of students, as Finelinebilly pointed out, actually proceed to receive a degree. As such, we shouldn't devalue what appears to me the main mission of the school just to satisfy anon. Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 04:09, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that the problem is that we are not sticking to the facts. The problem, which you allude to, is one of emphasis. It is a fact that the Extension School awards undergraduate and graduate degrees. It actually awards many more degrees than some of the other 12 schools. However, it is also a fact that the vast majority of Extension students (97% over the past 100 years - though I don't know what it is more recently) never earn a degree or a certificate. These are both facts, and neither is contested. What gets emphasized in the lead is the source of the present difficulty. Just as we should not devalue to core mission of providing continuing education courses to students to satisfy anon, we should also not devalue the hundreds of degrees that are awarded each year to satisfy any particular user. A balanced, NPOV lead is what we should be striving for here.

I will add again here that I think you are being a bit oversensative. There is a disagreement of emphasis here, and a minor one at that. It hardly constitutes an article going down the drain. You didn't respond above to my example of the GSE and GSAS, so I think you may be showing a bias against the Extension School.--Briancua (talk) 18:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Brian,

I should have responded above and will do soon, but for now, I just want to emphasize I have no particular bias against the extension school. Although I am a College alumnus, I have taken some summer school classes (offered by the Extension school), making me an Extension school student as well --at least for that one summer in the not-so-distant past. That said, I generally dislike people who try to erase the true nature of ES as a provider of quality continuing education and open-enrollment courses to the community in favor of a more College-like image. ES fills a particular educational niche and can stand on its own, and there is no need to keep bringing the College up needlessly. They are distinct albeit connected institutions. That is my general approach to this article.

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 22:40, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Summer School classes are offered by HSS not HES. Two seperate schools under the FAS umbrella. --Darkstar949 (talk) 20:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Is there a source for that? I started getting HES emails after taking HSS, so it made me assume the two were pretty much the same (or HSS is under HES). I stand corrected if that's not the case. Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 00:51, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, both the schools have different deans and DCE lists them seperately... but it is Harvard and they do enjoy their odd organizational structures. Getting HES emails after taking a HSS course makes sense though since they have overlapping missions and HSS classes count towards HES degrees. --Darkstar949 (talk) 20:30, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

History

Briancua, I've pared down your history section for several reasons:

(1) The history section was far too verbose. The section amounted to almost 4,000 words to describe the period from 1910-present. This amount of words for such a short span of time is extraneous. For comparison, the Harvard University entry (which comprises the Extension School as well as the other 12 schools under the Harvard umbrella) consists of slightly more than 1,000 words. And the HU history section spans from colonial times-present. The entry for "Harvard College" consists of 314 words. Even the Harvard Law history doesn't break the 1800 word threshold. There is no reason why the Extension School, which has existed for slightly more than 100 years should contain so much history.

(2) The history section comprised an inequitable amount of space within the article. The article was approximately 7500 words with 4000 devoted to history; therefore, more than half of the article consisted of history. Again, for comparison, The HU entry is roughly 9,000 words, with 1000 devoted to history. This amount is far more justifiable.

(3) Your extensive history revision cites only one source, Former Dean Michael Shinagel's book "The Gates Unbarred: A History of University Extension. Essentially, you provided a Cliff's Notes version of this book. If readers wish to learn more detailed history of ES, they can and should read Shinagel's book, as summarizing books is not the purpose of Wikipedia. ---finelinebilly--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Finelinebilly (talk • contribs) 06:49, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Reverted before I saw your post here on the talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 07:55, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I don't consider it "my" section, although since I did add most of the material I obviously differ on whether or not it belongs here. You are correct that, proportionally, the history section takes up a large part of the article. However, I don't believe that any of it poses a NPOV or other issue, aside from coming largely from a single source, which is easily remedied and not a reason in and of itself to cut the material.

You are also correct that the HU article has only a small portion devoted to history, however you neglect the fact that there is a separate History of Harvard University article. I also checked the Yale University article, where roughly 40% of the article is devoted to history, compared to the roughly 50% here. I am sure there are other college articles out there with similarly sized history sections. I don't think the article size alone warrants it to be split into two articles, with a summary of the history left here, however if this would make you more comfortable I wouldn't oppose it. --Briancua (talk) 15:25, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

[ WP:Edit conflict ] I was reverted here by Aua. I pointed to Finelinebilly's WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS reasoning when I reverted, reasoning that I still view as flawed; there is no 1800 word threshold, unless it's Finelinebilly's. Look around around Wikipedia, and it is easy to see that many articles about schools, including colleges and universities, do not abide by Finelinebilly's threshold. We should not go around arbitrarily cutting articles (forming a semblance of justification afterward), and that type of behavior generally is not tolerated at this site. That stated, I agree that not a lot of the material Finelinebilly cut was/is needed in this article; Wikipedia follows WP:Summary style. Still, there is a lot of material that Finelinebilly cut that likely should be maintained. I don't have this article WP:Watchlisted, or else I would have likely seen Finelinebilly's talk page reasoning before I reverted. I only stumbled onto this article via WP:STiki. In other words, this article is not important to me, nor is the matter at hand, so I won't be campaigning to have the aforementioned removed material restored. Flyer22 (talk) 15:31, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

FlyerTalk,

You accuse me of "forming a semblance of justification after the fact," as if I have some ulterior motive for deleting extraneous history that I would argue constitutes plagiarism. You accuse me of "arbitrarily" cutting articles as if I did so for no specific reason; I explicated my reasons for cutting the material which were predicated on the entry containing too much extraneous information that sacrificed the quality and readability of the article. You point to the "WP:OTHERSSTUFF EXISTS" policy, but let me address an error in this justification:

The policy that you cited addresses article creation/deletion, not editing, and therefore this policy is not germane to the debate at hand. But even if it were, the following information comes from the policy: "In consideration of precedent and consistency, though, identifying articles of the same nature that have been established and continue to exist on Wikipedia may provide extremely important insight into general notability of concepts, levels of notability (what's notable: international, national, regional, state, provincial?), and whether or not a level and type of article should be on Wikipedia." So if adapted for editing purposes, this clause would indicate that existing articles "may provide extremely important insight" into the substance of similar articles in order to create "consistency."

Additionally, thank you for bringing the History of Harvard University entry to my attention; I was not aware of its existence. However, the existence of this entry further corroborates my argument as the entire "History of Harvard" entry is approximately 2500 words for a lone historical article on a university that consists of 13 schools. Therefore, I argue that one of the schools within the university should not contain a more extensive history section (1500 words more) than the entire university, which predates the individual school by centuries.

Lastly, thank you for concurring with me that much of the history can be cut from the Extension School entry. You say that certain information that I cut "should be maintained." Please be more specific as to what information you are referring to, and we can discuss further. Finelinebilly (talk)finelinebillyFinelinebilly (talk)

I think you may be confusing Flyer and myself. It's not a problem per se, but it makes it a little more difficult to follow your argument when I don't know who you are addressing. That said, I'm not sure I follow your argument. Where does it say that within a hierarchical organization that the history of a parent must be longer than the history of a subsidiary? Would you likewise be upset if, say, the History of Texas article (I don't even know if there is one) was longer than the History of the United States, or if the History of the Diocese of Worcester was longer than the History of the Anglican Church? Can you cite for me a policy that says this must be so? Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a work in progress. I am sure eventually the parent articles, in this case the History of Harvard, will someday exceed in length the History of the Extension School. Until some editor, or group of editors, gets around to adding material to those articles, I see no reason why we should so drastically cut this one. For this reason I have reverted. --Briancua (talk) 01:08, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Brian,

You link to not a reason and claim that there was no reason for me to delete the historical information about the Extension School. But notice that violation of copyright is in fact a valid reason. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights#Using_copyrighted_work_from_others. "Note that copyright law governs the creative expression of ideas, not the ideas or information themselves. Therefore, it is legal to read an encyclopedia article or other work, reformulate the concepts in your own words, and submit it to Wikipedia, so long as you do not follow the source too closely." I looked at Shinagel's book and I argue that you "follow the source too closely" as you more or less provided a Cliff's Notes version of the book.

With respect to "Where does it say that within a hierarchical organization that the history of a parent must be longer than the history of a subsidiary...Can you cite for me a policy that says this must be so?"

I'm not aware of such a policy. But notice that I never said that one existed. My primary concern is that the extraneous history section detracts from the overall quality of the article. I simply pointed to the other Harvard articles to argue for the sake of consistency, and to provide examples of quality articles that I believe contain an appropriate amount of history. And if you ask me, this whole "Because nobody did it yet" argument that you use is fallacious. I can easily respond with "Because it's not a good idea!" and then we are both speculating about some imaginary person's intentions=Fallacy. We can, however, argue about is what is actually written, which is exactly what I am trying to do. I believe that the history section that you contributed is extraneous.

If you believe the extensive history to be such an important aspect of the Extension School, and that summarizing Shinagel's book does not constitute breach of copyright law, then then why don't you create a separate "History of Harvard Extension School" entry? Finelinebilly (talk)finelinebillyFinelinebilly (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:11, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion on the length of the history section in this article but the edit warring must stop. Work it out here before the lot of you are blocked. ElKevbo (talk) 19:23, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure how you can say the section is extraneous as it is, by definition, about the Extension School. However, you will notice that I above proposed the creation of a History of the Extension School article. I'm not certain that it is needed at the current juncture, but as I said above, if it would make you feel better, I wouldn't oppose it as a reasonable compromise. --Briancua (talk) 16:17, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Bingo! Compromise accepted with enthusiasm. Finelinebilly (talk)finelinebillyFinelinebilly (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:21, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Undergraduate Admissions

Brian, you reverted my edit which listed the name of "EXPO E-25 Academic Writing and Critical Reading," the required course to gain admission into the ALB program at Extension. You say that this edit constituted "Too much detail, which may change in any given semester." Please elaborate. I disagree that listing the name of the course is too detailed, but please elaborate as to the potential "change" in case you are privy to information that I am unaware of. Thank you. Finelinebilly (talk)finelinebillyFinelinebilly (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:58, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

My point was that "EXPO E-25" doesn't mean anything to most people. Even I, an alumnus, don't know what it means and how E-25 differs from E-24 or E-26. It's a level of detail into which we need not delve. Additionally, it could change at time to a different course, at which point this article would be inaccurate. It suffices to say that applicants must take an expository writing course. --Briancua (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Remove non-notable alumni

Generally, notable alumni are blue-linked. As of now, most of them are red-linked and should be removed. Just letting the crowd here knows what I plan on doing: chopping. Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Before you do, I would recommend checking out WP:NLIST. Simply not having an article written about them yet does not mean the person is not notable. --Briancua (talk) 21:23, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 11 December 2014

This edit request to Harvard Extension School has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The most recent edit in the article's lead is factually incorrect and misleading. Harvard Extension School offers two degrees: MLA and ALB. These programs each have different requirements; ALB requires grades of B or better in permission courses, but MLA requires B- or better. Therefore, the statement that admission requires a grade of B or higher is factually incorrect.^[5]

Second, one of three permission courses for admission to ALB is Expository writing, which is not open-enrollemnt; it requires successful completion of the "Test of Critical Reading and Writing Skills" or earn a B in EXPO 15.[1] Additionally, students must demonstrate English proficiency in order to enroll in several courses [2] Therefore, to say that "Anyone can take a course" is incorrect and highly misleading. Please address. Finelinebilly (talk) 23:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Finelinebilly (talk) 23:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

We should definitely note that only a B- is needed for MLA. The other requests sound reasonable. How about "Anyone who passes a test in critical reading and writing skills and demonstrates English proficiency can take a course"? Steeletrap (talk) 23:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you. However, all of that information is in the body of the article already in the "admissions" section, and in my opinion, it does not belong in the lede. What was it about the lede that has you so upset? My request is that we revert to old lede and possible change a few words. Perhaps the last sentence could read "an application process" rather than "an application and admissions committee process." Would that change appease you? Finelinebilly (talk) 18:15, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

There is no "application committee process." These are just lies. The truth about HES as an open enrollment institution is highly informative to readers, and it can be expressed concisely. It belongs in the lede. Steeletrap (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Many courses at HES are open enrollment; degree programs are not. The lede mentioned "offering...undergraduate and graduate degree programs aimed at nontraditional students,as well as open-enrollment continuing education courses in 60 fields." I cited the information which states that after meeting criteria in preadmission courses, students must submit a formal application. This constitutes "an application process." To state otherwise is misleading and factually incorrect. What if we revert to the old lede and nix phrase "admissions committee"? Would that appease you? Finelinebilly (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

References

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 22:38, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Per the Extension School's website, "If you plan to register for courses for degree program admission, you must take the test of critical reading and writing skills." That means that ALL permission courses that students intend to put toward future degrees require an admissions test. This reason constitutes one of many for why it is factually inaccurate to state that "anyone can take a course." ^[1]

When the protection for this page ends, I plan to revert the lede to its former state, but I will nix the part regarding the "admissions committee" since I cannot find any evidence to support this process. Instead the lede will state that degree programs admissions are subject to "successful completion of permission courses and an application process" Finelinebilly (talk) 05:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

As per Finelinebilly, I don't think the details are important per se to the lede. That said, I feel it's important to mention that courses are open-enrollment and that an application and successful completion of some courses are necessary for entry to the degree program. The current lede doesn't seem problematic to me.

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 03:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Pre-med and naming

User:SPECIFICO has deleted some content I added, citing WP:Undue and for being "not independently sourced." The content removed touches on two separate areas, so I'm not sure which argument applies to which section. However, I hardly think two paragraphs on the pre-med program, or one on a proposal to rename the school and the degrees offered, constitutes undue weight. Furthermore, I don't know anyone who would claim that the Harvard University Press and The Harvard Crimson are not WP:RS as both have long standing reputations for fact-checking and accuracy. Neither is an official organ of the University, but even if they were then I still think this information would qualify under WP:SELFPUB. For these reasons I have reverted. --Briancua (talk) 05:32, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

It really would be more constructive if you'd engage in discussion before reinserting the disputed text. Neither source is independent of the subject of this article. Moreover such minor details are not covered in the encyclopedia articles about most other universities. SPECIFICO talk 02:27, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I disagree that neither source is sufficiently independent, however even if that were the case I would once again point you to WP:SELFPUB. Additionally, simply because it is not commonly done in other articles (which, not having reviewed many other university articles, I can not confirm but will take your word for it), does not mean that it can't or shouldn't be done here. After all, WP:Wikipedia is a work in progress. --Briancua (talk) 05:29, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The stuff is not noteworthy. It's undue detail. Find some secondary sources for this article, otherwise the whole thing appears to be a patchwork of promotional material published by affiliated parties. And please have a look at WP:BRD -- it really would be better to remove the disputed material while we continue to work this out on talk. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 06:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I, obviously, disagree. Off the top of my head, I can think of several colleges who have changed their names: Tempe State Teachers College, Beaver College, and North Adams State. You will find mention of the name change changes on the articles for these colleges under their current names: Arizona State University, Arcadia University, and Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. I agree that more secondary sources would be nice. Can we work on that together? --Briancua (talk) 02:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Primary Sourcing

This article is sourced almost entirely to primary or affiliated sources. WP editors are not empowered to create a narrative from selected primary sourced statements. It's therefore inappropriate to argue in favor of including this or that poorly-sourced statement in the article. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I am assuming you are referring to the current dispute over the lede, discussed in sections about. First, let me ask you where else one could expect to find information about admissions standards about a college or university that do not come directly from that institution? I can conceive of one existing, but can't think of any. Secondly, please review WP:SELFPUB. It states that "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves..."

Finally, check out other college and university articles and you will see that they are also littered with self-referential sources. The Harvard School of Engineering and Applied Sciences article, for example, has 15 sources (far fewer than the 50 here) and 14 of them are links to a Harvard.edu website. The GSE article has three sources; the GSAS article has ZERO sources. The article on the College only has 15 sources. I have not done a comprehensive review, but this may be the best sourced of any Harvard related article. --Briancua (talk) 04:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

We need secondary reliable sources to establish notability and to show us what independent references consider noteworthy about a school and its program. For example, the historic role of this school in community outreach might be noteworthy and discussed in various printed references. On the other hand, the detailed discussion of its current program contains a lot that is cribbed from affiliated publications and comes off as promotion or undue for an encyclopedia article. SPECIFICO talk 04:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll have to agree with SPECIFICO on this (and with Briancua on the issue of the lede; it's fine in its current state). This page has struck me a bit too promotional and I think it needs some trimming; do we really need all that info about the school's programs?

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 03:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Every addition of primary and affiliate-sourced material makes this article worse, not better. In fact, it could be heading for deletion. I urge everyone to improve it by looking for secondary independent sources that will tell us what is important about this school and with what weight. SPECIFICO talk 03:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of "admission" standards

There is no admissions process. The lede has been packed with lies, likely from insecure alumni of HES who want to pretend it's hard to get into. The actual facts are as follows: Anyone can enroll; and one is admitted to the undergraduate and graduate degree programs if one earns a B or higher in three test-drive classes. Steeletrap (talk) 22:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I addressed some of these points on (talk)'s talk page, but allow me to respond here as well. First, most HES courses are in fact open enrollment, but not all are. Many courses require prerequisites or placement tests. for instance, "Expository Writing," a mandatory permission course for ALB admission, requires successful completion of the "Test of Critical Reading and Writing Skills" or earn a B in EXPO 15.^[2] Additionally, students must demonstrate English proficiency in order to enroll in several courses ^[3] Therefore, to say that "Anyone can take a course" is incorrect and highly misleading.

Second, minimum grade requirements for the two academic degree programs (ALB and MLA) are different. The former requires grades of B or better, while the latter requires grades of B- or better.^[4]

Third and finally, permission courses are only the first requirements for degree program admission. Once students meet these criteria, they still must submit a formal application to HES (including transcripts, essays, resumé, etc.), which an admissions committee then reviews. I am not aware of any information that argues for or against selectivity at this stage, but it is a stated requirement of the degree programs.^[5] Finelinebilly (talk) 22:55, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

As I quote in the article, HES' website says that the 3 Bs are sufficient for admission. So no, there is no reason to think that the "essay application" is a competitive process. The "admissions committee" (a term HES never uses to describe any body affiliated with it) appears to grade by completion. However, it does describe itself as "open enrollment." Steeletrap (talk) 23:32, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't really have any strong feelings either way about whether or not the phrase "admissions committee" is used or not. However, based on Open the Gates to the Ivy League, I added it in one of my recent edits. The book discusses an admissions committee and its role several times. --Briancua (talk) 04:32, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

The fact that you would use a phrase like "packed with lies," assign motives, say another editor is "intentionally attempting to mislead," cast aspersions, say that another editor's good faith edit constitutes "vandalism", and claim that other editors are "insecure" leads me to believe that you are not coming at this with a NPOV, Steeletrap. That said, I fail to see why the lede needs to get into the level of detail where it currently is (and is protected). There are sections in the article for admissions criteria. Lets put all the particulars there, and mention in the lede that HES is open enrollment but not open admission. Additionally, as I said in an edit summary, I don't know why you are comparing HEC's admission process to the College's. For one thing the College doesn't award Master's degrees where HES does, and for another who cares what the College's admission process is like? Talk about it in that article, not this one. --Briancua (talk) 04:48, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Steeletrap, I'm not sure why you are so insistent that detailed admissions information go into the lede, but I don't want to edit war over it. I believe, as does Finelinebilly and Aua, that we need not put details in the lede. Also, per WP:LEAD, the lede should "summarize the most important points" (my emphasis). You say in your most recent edit summary that the lede should describe the school as being "effectively open enrollment to people who a re (sic) competent in basic English." However, the lede already describes the school as open enrollment, and talks about the degree programs as well. Can you explain why you want this level of detail in what is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article? --Briancua (talk) 03:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

References

Secondary source (Crimson) on lax HES admissions standards

What's up with this reversion? The Crimson is RS. And the report I cited is highly informative regarding the differences between HES and Harvard's other schools, in terms of admissions standards and student backgrounds. Steeletrap (talk) 05:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC) This article is overly-reliant on primary sources so a secondary--not HES--source is particularly helpful. Steeletrap (talk) 05:05, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Check out the very next edit and you will see that the information you added was moved down the page to the section on degrees as the consensus on this talk page has been that the lede need not get into the particulars of the admission process. In fact, you will notice that the source you added is now used 4 times in the article. It was good. Thank you. Also, while I agree with you that The Crimson should be considered a secondary source, there are others on this talk page who disagree. --Briancua (talk) 01:30, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Impersonation of Harvard College students by HES attendees

Regardless of how "well sourced" this information might be, it is highly irrelevant. Two isolated incidents of impersonation (out of more than half a million students who have taken Extension classes since 1910) are not significant. That would be like adding a "Terrorist Ties" section to the Harvard College article because Ted Kaczynski was an alumnus. Furthermore, this issue was debated four years ago, and consensus was reached. For the aforementioned reasons, I have deleted the section. Finelinebilly (talk) 15:53, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Consensus can change. 3RR rule has not changed. Please undo and stand back. Please discuss your concerns on talk per WP:BRD. SPECIFICO talk 16:03, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

The information is completely irrelevant, especially since the most recent incident occurred more than three years ago. Moreover, I stated that more than 500,000 students have taken Extension courses, and the minuscule number of "impersonators" is in no way significant or consequential. Listing these unfortunate incidents is nothing more than a cheap ploy associate negativity with HES.

Please review https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Relevance_of_content.

"The relevance of information is best demonstrated by the provision of reliable sources, and of suitable context.The bulk of Wikipedia's content consists of:Basic description – which explains what the subject is, what it does (or did), and what it is notable for...The effects of these factors on the subject should be plainly apparent; if they are not, additional context is needed. Groups of disparate facts lack such context, and should be avoided."

Three Extension students impersonating Harvard College over the course of Extension's 115 years is not notable and does not explain what the Extension School is or what is notable for. It is therefore irrelevant. Finelinebilly (talk) 19:28, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Finelinebilly that this isn't really worth mentioning here. It would be appropriate on the articles for the individuals who pass themselves off as something they are not, but not here. To give another example, that Tyra Banks claimed to have graduated from Harvard Business School when she only earned a certificate in an executive education program is (rightly) mentioned in her article, but not on the HBS article. If information about HES/HC impostors are included, it should be offered in the context of the chip on the shoulder that many College students have towards the Extension School, without which no one would care that two or three people out of a half a million claimed to have attended the College when in fact they went to HES. --Briancua (talk) 01:45, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Finebelly, "relevance of content" is one user's essay. 3RR is a core WP policy. SPECIFICO talk 02:14, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Uncited weasel an dubious.

Please find a reference for "it is estimated that 500,000 students have taken a course at the Extension School." SPECIFICO talk 03:09, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

It's already in the history section, and cited with footnote 7: Shinagel 2010, p. 220. --Briancua (talk) 03:17, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Misquote

Briancua, first off, thank you for your many contributions to the HES article. I removed the "Extension and College professor" quote for two reasons: (1) it was misquoted. If you look to the Crimson article, you'll see that the professor didn't refer to HES admission as "lax"; the Crimson did. (2) Wikipedia strives for objectivity, and while pure objectivity is not possible, "lax" is a completely subjective word. The Crimson might label HES degree program admissions as such, but not everyone would. The article lists admission criteria for each degree program; therefore, readers can gauge for themselves whether admission is lax or difficult or whatever. Finelinebilly (talk) 04:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Very fair point. If I remember correctly, someone threw in the "lax admission standards" part without the resulting positive quotation in an effort to discredit HES. I added the professor's quote to make it more accurate as the intent was to show it in a positive light. You are correct, however. How would you feel about including the following:

A professor at both the Extension School and Harvard College has opined that the open enrollment system "'give[s] a lot' to the institution by permitting an atmosphere of valuable diversity that does not exist at any of Harvard’s other schools." Another professor has been quoted as saying that those who pursue degrees at the Extension School "are brilliantly milking the cow of Harvard University."

This makes it clear it is the professor's opinion being espoused. What do you think --Briancua (talk) 13:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Please use talk and do not undo reverts without discussion

@Briancua: -- Regarding this undo [2] of my recent revert: Fodor's travel guide is not an authority on education and this reference is not RS for the text cited to it. As to the Lowell quote, it is vacuous and out of date and the date is not clear from the text you reinserted. The text I removed is weaselly, undue, and ill-sourced. I hope this clarifies my terse edit comment and that you will reinstate my edit and use the talk page to further present the reasons for your disagreement. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 15:24, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

If a large portion of the article was based on Fodor's, I would agree with you. However, I don't see anything in WP:RS that says we can't make a single reference simply because they are not an authority. For the Lowell quotation, I disagree that it is out of date. It falls in the history section, and the context of when it was made is clear. If you have better phrasing, I would welcome an edit. Perhaps it belongs elsewhere in the History section. --BrianCUA (talk) 17:42, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's not how we apply the WP principles concerning verification and sourcing. The specific statement needs to be verified by a reliable source for that statement. If Fodor's said, for example that a visit to Harvard makes for an entertaining and informative afternoon's stroll with abundant recreational and culinary options nearby, that would be an authoritative judgment from a source which is recognized for its experience in making such evaluations. So please remove. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 20:04, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Foundation Date

Hi Wikipedia Community, The Wikipedia article about Harvard Extension School says that the foundation year was 1910. However, the school's website states "When John Lowell Jr. founded our school in 1835...". The website mentions the year 1910 solely as the year when the school was accredited: "Since 1910, we’ve existed as an accredited institution of higher learning". Here's the website; the information can be found when scrolling down to OUR COMMITMENT TO THE FUTURE OF EDUCATION: https://www.extension.harvard.edu/about-us The question now is, should the article be changed accordingly? I won't do the changes and would feel more comfortable if a more experienced editor (or even an admin) did so on my behalf (should a change be justified after my comment here).BankerStar (talk) 00:04, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Harvard Extension School/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Carbrera (talk · contribs) 22:05, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I am Carbrera, and I'll be reviewing this article for possible good article submission.

Full review coming very soon. Carbrera (talk) 22:05, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

This a very well-worded article! I have just a few concerns that I have listed below:

Lead

Please put Ref #6 at the end of the sentence as it looks kind of awkward where it is currently placed
- Done.

History

You list "early faculty", but many of them are in red links; why should they be listed when they aren't necessarily notable, considering they don't have Wikipedia articles?
- I removed all the redlinks.
Who described the Extension classes as "surprisingly affordable"?
- It was Fodor's, but I am not sure why this one clause in the whole article was singled out. Even the very next clause is cited by not attributed in text.

Deans

There are no sources at all for this section
- Done.

Academics

Distance education

The 'Today' section starts with "As of 2014..."; does this still apply to 2016, the current year? If so, current-ize this section so it is up-to-date
- I'm not sure, so I changed the heading from "Today" to "Modern"

Academic requirements

I would add "strict" before "GPA requirements."
- Done.

Alumni

The notes in parentheses look out of place to me; there must be some way that you could explain this in the section itself instead of creating footnotes, yes?
- This screwed with the placement of the references a little, but I think I made it work.

Notable alumni

The last sentence in this section's third paragraph doesn't make sense to me
- I broke it up. Hope this clarifies things.

End of GA Review:

Like I said, a very strong article, but I do have a few concerns. Let me know once you've finished with this, I shall put it on hold for seven days. Thank you. Carbrera (talk) 16:46, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

@BrianCUA: You there? Almost a week has passed. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 18:09, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Carbrera, Sainsf, BrianCUA rarely edits on weekends. It would be nice if you could give him at least another day or two to respond. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:20, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: Thanks, I would request Carbrera to wait for three days. Sainsf <^>_{Feel at home} 18:23, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

I am sorry. I have been away. Give me another day or two and I will finish this up. thanks. --BrianCUA (talk) 03:13, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

I've made all the corrections. Thanks for the effort, and your patience! --BrianCUA (talk) 19:44, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

So sorry, I have not noticed this message until now. I have read through the article again and will now pass it. Please do not apologize for your absence, as I can now say I have done the same. It was a pleasure to work with you. Cheers! Carbrera (talk) 01:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

The Harvard Crimson

User:SPECIFICO has reverted my edit, saying that the Harvard Crimson was an "UNDUE promotional primary source." I am reverting, for the following reasons. First, his reversion removed some additional relevant material, and an extra citation. Secondly, the Crimson is an independent newspaper where undergraduate students of Harvard College, not the Extension School, have editorial control. It is not a primary source, and the Crimson hasn't always been this friendly to the Extension School in the past. It's hardly promotional. The edits to prose I don't think were promotional either. You wouldn't speak of the New York Times editorial board, or the Washington Post editorial board. For an unsigned editorial you typically just list the name of the publication. That is what I did here. I am open to improvements, but I don't believe the previous version was sufficient. --BrianCUA (talk) 21:33, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

This article is full of undue promotional material. Instead of edit-warring, I suggest following BRD, which is a time tested way to resolve differences. Please undo your second insertion and let others share their opinions on this. SPECIFICO talk 23:43, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Entrance exam

There have been several times now when User:Warrior7658 has removed stable, cited content regarding the lack of an entrance exam to enroll in a class. His explanation is that there are language exams that foreign students must pass. The material he is removing is cited to the longest-serving dean in the school's history, so I think it is safe to say that the School, or at least the former dean, does not consider a language proficiency test to be the same as an entrance exam along the lines of the SAT. I'll add that there is a second sentence that is removed in these edits regarding the number of degrees awarded, with no explanation. If Warrior wants to add a note about the TOEFL, etc., exams, I would welcome it, but removing this text wholesale is not the answer. For this reason I have reverted. --BrianCUA (talk) 14:07, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the above statement. Additionally, for clarification, enrollment in the EXPO E-25 "Expository Writing" pre-admission course for ALB degree program seekers requires that students pass the Test of Critical Reading and Writing Skills or complete EXPO 15 Fundamentals of Academic Writing with a B grade.Finelinebilly (talk) 04:26, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

User:SeyrenW has taken Finelinebillys comment about the pro-sem and other classes and used it as justification to eliminate the verbiage about the entrance exam. I will repeat again that this is not an exam like the SAT, or an exam of competency. For this reason, I am again reverting. --BrianCUA (talk) 01:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

My intention was not to fuel these disputes, but rather to provide clarity. I have edited the page slightly by adding specificity based on what I see to be consensus outlined above: While there has never been a *formal* entrance exam such as the SAT, there is an English proficiency requirement for ESL students as well as the CRWS for E-25. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Best, Finelinebilly (talk) 13:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Impetus behind recent edits

While Extension's admissions are more selective and courses and degree programs are perhaps more rigorous than members of the general public may understand, recent edits attempt to position Extension alongside Harvard College and overemphasize differences between course takers and degree program enrollees are extraneous and self-defeating. Data points such as "ES students get a Harvard ID" are true but overemphasizing such trivial facts by placing them in the article's header further marginalizes Extension within the Harvard community. That is, most readers will likely assume that students enrolled in a university program will receive an ID card. The fact that this even needs to be stated implicitly reinforces the separation between Extension and the rest of Harvard among readers. I would urge the users responsible for the recent edits to read the entry on compensation (psychology). Finelinebilly (talk) 11:46, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I concur. The intro was extremely fluffy and definitely not in line with intros to other Harvard schools (ses HMS, for example). Cut down a bit.

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 16:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Fixed it. Reading the previous intro, you would never tell the school's main mission is to provide open enrollment education to everyone. Degrees are a small fraction of what they do and what their students want, yet someone was trying to overcompensate by making the whole intro about them (paraphrased: "Ohh, it's so selective to get into a degree program;" "they are actual Harvard students with IDs and access to the museum.").

It's high time to bring this article in line with every other single Harvard school's article. Insecurity shouldn't be in the way of objectivity here.

Disclaimer: before I get accused of bias, I have not gone to HES nor applied there ever.

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 16:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

User:Aua, while your changes brought clarity to the intro paragraph, I made slight changes. Mentioning "continuing education" is unnecessary for several reasons: the infobox includes these terms, the paragraph mentions "adult learners," "distance education," "professional development" as well as "personal enrichment." We do understand it's continuing education. On a side note, both your profile and previous comments indicate an affiliation to Harvard, possibly HC/HMS, thereby suggesting a possible bias towards HES. --SeyrenW (talk) 02:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

User:SeyrenW, I appreciate the slight changes you've made. I am not really fixated on including any particular terms like "continuing education" in the intro, so if you feel it shouldn't be included, I'm onboard with that. All I really want is to make sure the intro actually reflects the nature of the school: providing education to any and all who are interested and willing. Unlike other traditional schools, and not unlike many continuing education institutes, HES does not focus on granting degrees, nor is it its main objective. I hope you would agree with that and look forward to working with you and other editors to make sure we have an accurate header.

Re: my background, you're right in assuming I am affiliated with other Harvard schools. That, in itself, does not impart bias on my participation in improving HES's article.

Cheers, Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 14:06, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello Page Administrator: Perhaps we could consider changing, "550 Master Degrees. . .to 555 Master Degrees?" I am all but sure Our Good Chancellor of Harvard would not only agree, but would say Amen, Amen and Amun. Respectfully, Harvard Night School Senior Executive for Research Quality and Oversight, West; 141 West Longitude.Publican Farmer (talk) 19:41, 12 July 2017 (UTC)Dutch

Crest showing up as all black

I tried to upload an SVG file for the crest in the sidebar, but it is currently showing up as all black. I have absolutely no idea why; I apologize. If somebody could fix it, that would look good.

Thanks Hoyadonis (talk) 04:03, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Youngest graduate

We have a new editor to the page, so first off welcome to @Exoticowl:! She has added information several times about the youngest graduate of HES. In doing so, she has offered two sources, here and here. There are two problems, though. The first is that they both seem to be WP:SELFPUB. This can be OK in some cases, but not when it supports an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim. I'd say that graduating from Harvard at 14 years old is an exceptional claim, so it needs a stronger source. Secondly, Exoticowl is claiming that Ria Cheruvu is the youngest graduate ever from HES. Neither one of these sources supports that claim. Before that statement can be added, we need a source to WP:VERIFY it. Can you provide a WP:RELIABLE source that says Miss Cheruvu is the youngest ever graduate? Thanks, and welcome again! --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 16:23, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Page Complaints

Edit warring to add unsourced percentage of students admitted to graduate programs

Can the unregistered editor who is edit warring to add "Of the over 30,000 students enrolled in the school, less than 10 percent are admitted to the graduate programs (ALM)." to the article please stop and explain the edit or at least provide a source for it? Thanks. ElKevbo (talk) 03:07, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Summer 2020 Revision [Ongoing Proposal]

Hey, @RedHotPear and @EEng, "ip user" here, now registered as RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC). I'm happy to "talk" and collaborate with you about this page, because it needs work. As is, I think its "stable" mush. And for all its revision history, this talk page is totally empty. Let's get to it! (Leave the talk archive in the past, and let's try to create a record justifying what we put here...)

LEAD

Following WP:LEAD

Original:

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school and one of the twelve degree-granting schools that compose Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Under the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, individual courses among the school's liberal arts and professional offerings, a number of which have Harvard College equivalents, are open-enrollment. However, the Extension School also offers undergraduate degrees, graduate degrees, and certificates in more than 60 fields of study, provided that a qualifying test is passed, satisfactory grades are obtained in prior Harvard coursework, and a formal application is accepted. Degree candidates and alumni enjoy access to Harvard's many amenities and opportunities.

The school offers on-campus, online, and hybrid courses. It also offers a pre-medical program for students needing specific coursework to apply to medical school. The school is primarily intended for nontraditional adult learners.

Since its establishment in 1910, an estimated 500,000 students have taken courses at the Extension School. Of these, 0.18% earned a degree.[7]

• The sentences are kind of wordy as written. I think this should be a much shorter and concise statement of what the school is -- this will also prevent edit warring if it is short and factual.RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• Some important details shouldn't be ommitted, but they can be moved into the body of the article or an "Overview" section immediately after.RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• [Add comments here with bullet points for/against this ¶, followed by your signature RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)]

Proposed by RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC):

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school of Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It is administered by the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, which also administers Harvard College and Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. Harvard Extension School in offers a mixture of liberal arts and industry-professional courses for adult (age 21+) learners, typically with some career experience. Registration in courses is open-enrollment for a global public. However, admissions for the degree programs utilizes the credit grades obtained at Harvard for a self-described "inverted admissions" process.

• Compare with Wiki articles for Harvard Law School, Harvard Medical School, Harvard Business School, Harvard College. The terms law school, med school, business school, undergraduate college, and extension school are generic. And so, this article should simply state that "(HES) is the extension school of Harvard University..."RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• It's important to note that FAS administers HC, GSAS, and HES.RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• "Harvard Extension School in offers a mixture of liberal arts and industry-professional courses for adult (age 21+) learners, typically with some career experience." This is the nugget that really explains what the school is. If you want to phrase it differently, I'm open to your suggestion...RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• Another important thing to include here is that courses are open (non-selective) and degree programs are somewhat selective. I use the term "inverted admissions" here to introduce how things work, but the explanation for what "inverted admissions" is should be in the body of the article. If you think "inverted-admissions" is too brochure-like, then how else would you describe... We can cite the Extension School's own wording.RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

RedWhiteandMaroon, Welcome, RedWhiteAndMaroon! Thanks for your interest in the article and Wikipedia in general. I think it might be helpful for you if you review a couple of the policies and guidelines before making any big edits. WP:5P is a pretty good place to start. Since we are talking about the lede of this article, WP:LEDE comes into play. There we read that the lede "gives the basics in a nutshell and cultivates interest in reading on—though not by teasing the reader or hinting at what follows. ...The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." While you make a good point that it could use a good copy edit, I'm not sure that your proposal to move important details to an "overview" section is the best course of action. The lede should follow the body of the article, not the ledes of other Harvard-related articles. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes, welcome. All the Harvard articles are need a lot of work, so we need all the help we can get. Mr. HotPear has been particularly effective on Harvard stuff recently so I hope he will join us soon. All I'll say for now is that this particular article has way too much brochure-like stuff e.g Degree candidates and alumni enjoy access to Harvard's many amenities and opportunities. E Eng 21:26, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you for your welcomes! Haha, I read WP:5P. I particularly like: "Wikipedia has no firm rules." Ok, I'm trying to incorporate your concerns; I just really don't like the wordy-yet-disjointed phrasing of the lead, and I think it should be possible to make that solid (by some consensus) before moving on to the rest of the article... Otherwise, it will continue to be changed every month. It would be nice if we could refer back to this talk page and say: see, we already discussed and agreed it's solid. There was nothing here on talk!

I welcome you as well! I recommend that you review WP:OR and WP:VERIFY as starting points. Please also know that it is conventional to sign comments on the talk page with four tildes in order to avoid confusion. RedHotPear (talk) 06:31, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you, I have read those articles. And I had already signed every comment here except the last one above.RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 13:25, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposed by RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 00:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school of Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It is administered by the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, which also administers Harvard College and Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. It offers a mixture of liberal arts and industry-professional courses, typically for adult (age 21+) learners with some career experience.

The school was originally founded in 1910 to make Harvard College courses available as evening classes for the greater Boston community, and some Extension School courses, e.g. CS50 and Expository Writing, are substantially equivalent with the offering at the undergraduate college. Unlike the college, the Extension School today provides non-residential online education with a variety of instruction models: evening classes on-campus i.e. the "traditional" model; online video on demand; web conferencing using Zoom; and hybrid classrooms which combine Zoom conferencing with optional in-person attendance.^[1]

Harvard Extension School currently has over 900 courses. There are no admission requirements to enroll in a course. However, the Extension School also confers undergraduate degrees, graduate degrees, and certificates in more than 60 fields of study and has a pre-med program. These formal programs require passing a Harvard-administered "test of critical reading and writing," three grades in prior Harvard coursework above "B", and acceptance after a formal application--a practice sometimes referred to as "inverted admissions." Since its establishment, over 500,000 students have taken courses at Harvard Extension School. Of these, an estimated 0.18% have earned a degree.^[2]

Submitted to main article because I like it and I can WP:Be_Bold. If you object, please try to incorporate these changes into a new proposal and put it below with bulleted comments. RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 04:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Deep breath

RedWhiteandMaroon, I don't want you to get discouraged but when there's much to be done and multiple interested editors (who have other calls on their time) things often go slowly. My first advice is that the lead is the last thing to attend to. What needs doing first is to banish the almost incredible amount of dross now weighing the article down. To give you an idea, see the chain of edits starting here [3]. After that we can think about what needs to be added in. E Eng 14:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

"When the university president says, 'You better remember you're second-class citizens, and don't let us catch you here outside of class hours', THAT will be worth reporting" Haha, EEng bringing the spice! Yeah, ok, I will turn attention to the rest of the article. But since I've put legit effort into the lede, I'd appreciate it if people would actually discuss rather than revert and say 'we need to discuss first' WP:BRD-NOT RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

You'll find a lot more such spice at WP:ASTONISHME. I'm going to leave it to you and RHP to worry about what the lead is for now; I'm absolutely serious that the lead is the last thing to attend to, because after doing everything else we're thoroughly steeped in all the material, so appropriate emphasis and balance for the lead will be more apparent. Now, what section should I take my hatchet to next? E Eng 15:23, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Thoughts

I sincerely appreciate all contributors' motivations to improve this article. While I have been fairly busy with other commitments, I will make it a priority to engage in this discussion as much as possible.

RedWhiteandMaroon: Perhaps the most recent edits on this article help you better understand why the WP:BRD norm is generally followed. The norm to maintain the stable version while discussion is ongoing prevents edit-warring and disruption at the article until a consensus is reached. Re-reverting contrary to BRD to push through your bold edit despite an initial reversion opens up the space for others to shove in their bold edits, as SeyrenW has done.

I certainly understand that you have put a lot of effort into your version of the lead, and I am certainly open to accommodating some of your concerns, especially as I believe that certain changes would be improvements. I also understand that my delays in responding on the talk page can be frustrating. But I assure you that it is better for everyone to follow the process.

To start, one of my concerns with your version of the lead is the specific mentions of CS50 and Expository Writing. Individual courses that are not even touched on in the body surely do not warrant a mention in the lead. The explicit comparisons of CS and Expository Writing to the Harvard College versions also fall under WP:OR and cannot be included (I am particularly concerned about Expository Writing). RedHotPear (talk) 06:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Per your specific request here, I have removed CS50 and expo writing from the lead. If you have anything else specific to add/remove, please say so. All this mumbjo jumbo out WP:BRD seems to me to go too far and is more indicative of WP:BRD-NOT.

Following WP:LEAD, we currently have 3 paragraphs compared with the suggested limit of 4. Do you want it to be shorter? My problem with the 'stable' version (your description, not mine) is that they are not "well composed" paragraphs. See: WP:LEAD. RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 16:13, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

RedWhiteandMaroon, I would echo EEng's comments that the lede should be the last thing we tackle, after the rest of the article is looked at first. I also want to second RedHotPear's comments about the importance of BRD and avoiding edit warring. However, if you really feel strongly about working on the lede now, why don't you paste a copy of your preferred text here on the talk page? Other editors can offer their thoughts and, once a consensus has been reached, it can move to the mainspace. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 17:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

RedWhiteandMaroon, at the risk of discouraging you, I'm adding my voice to the idea that the lead return to the status quo ante while we all work on the rest of the article. E Eng 18:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Slugger O'Toole "why don't you paste a copy of your preferred text here on the talk page?" I've been doing exactly that. See: the two sections above and the one below. Nobody has made even a single substantive comment about the text, just quoting Wiki policies at each other. RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 20:39, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Stable version (June 18, 2020, by consensus)

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school of Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Under the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, it offers liberal arts and professional courses, academic certificates, undergraduate and graduate degrees, as well as a pre-medical program. Founded in 1910 to extend Harvard's resources to the Greater Boston community, the school primarily caters to adult learners with professional experience.

The Extension School offers more than 900 on-campus, online, and hybrid courses. Admission to a degree program requires specific grades in Harvard coursework and a formal application. Since its establishment, over 500,000 students have taken courses at the school. Of these, an estimated 0.18% have earned a degree.^[2]

• I think this is a perfect compromise and much better than the original version that started this discussion. :) RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 19:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi RWM. Though I continue to severely disapprove of the disruptive process that we have gone through to reach this point, I have far fewer objections to this latest version. I can actually endorse it as a starting point to work off of. I have two notes.

One is that per MOS:BOLDSYN, the HES abbreviation must be bolded.

The other issue is with the claim that HES was founded "in 1910 to make Harvard College courses available for the greater Boston community." This is neither true nor supported by any of the body and sources. The early Extension School was somewhat ad hoc, and its functions did not generally revolve around Harvard College courses. I think you may be trying to derive this from the Ropes quote, but the quote does not nearly establish HES's founding purpose as "to make Harvard College courses available for the greater Boston community." HES was not founded to broadly expand access to Harvard College courses, but rather the dean is expressing an aspiration that the HES would provide nontraditional students "the same instruction" as the education that Harvard's traditional students receive. Remember, WP:SYNTHESIS is not permitted. RedHotPear (talk) 05:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

It also looks like ElKevbo brought up a third point! To use bold, surround the text with triple apostrophes; do not link the subject of an article to itself. Definitely not a major issue. Just similarly to my first note, learning some basic rules can help you navigate Wikipedia! Welcome. RedHotPear (talk) 06:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

"the claim that HES was founded 'in 1910 to make Harvard College courses available for the greater Boston community.'" Good point. I agree, "extending resources" is better. Yes, I know, change is painful. RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 15:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The last time there was a stable version of the lede was on June 1, not June 18. It is below. This should be the version we would from.

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school and one of the twelve degree-granting schools that compose Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Under the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, individual courses among the school's liberal arts and professional offerings, a number of which have Harvard College equivalents, are open-enrollment. However, the Extension School also offers undergraduate degrees, graduate degrees, and certificates in more than 60 fields of study, provided that a qualifying test is passed, satisfactory grades are obtained in prior Harvard coursework, and a formal application is accepted. Degree candidates and alumni enjoy access to Harvard's many amenities and opportunities.
The school offers on-campus, online, and hybrid courses. It also offers a pre-medical program for students needing specific coursework to apply to medical school. The school is primarily intended for nontraditional adult learners.
Since its establishment in 1910, an estimated 500,000 students have taken courses at the Extension School. Of these, 0.18% earned a degree.^[2]

My recommendation for a new lede is as follows:

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school and one of the twelve degree-granting schools that compose Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Under the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, it offers liberal arts and professional courses, academic certificates, undergraduate and graduate degrees, as well as a pre-medical program. Founded in 1910 to extend Harvard's resources to the Greater Boston community, the school primarily caters to adult learners with professional experience. Degrees are awarded in more than 60 fields of study. The Extension School offers more than 900 on-campus, online, and hybrid courses. Admission to a degree program requires specific grades in Harvard coursework and a formal application. Since its establishment, over 500,000 students have taken courses at the school. Of these, an estimated 0.18% have earned a degree.^[2]

I'd be glad to hear the thoughts of others. --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 20:15, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I'll say it one more time: the lead is the last thing to work on in any article. Let me know when you're ready to do the real work. E Eng 20:39, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

While I agree with EEng, there seems to be an appetite to work on this. I'm going to offer a tweaked version of what I wrote above to make it slightly more concise and better organized. Again, feedback is welcome.

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school and one of the twelve degree-granting schools that compose Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Under the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, it offers liberal arts and professional courses, academic certificates, undergraduate and graduate degrees in more than 60 fields of study, as well as a pre-medical program. The Extension School offers more than 900 on-campus, online, and hybrid courses.

Founded in 1910 to extend Harvard's resources to the Greater Boston community, the school primarily caters to adult learners with professional experience. Admission to a degree program requires specific grades in Harvard coursework and a formal application. Since its establishment, over 500,000 students have taken courses at the school. Of these, an estimated 0.18% have earned a degree.^[2]

--Slugger O'Toole (talk) 15:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps you can explain why you think "one of the twelve degree-granting schools" is so important? That HES offers "undergraduate and graduate degrees in more than 60 fields of study" is in the sentence right after it! Not sure what the "twelve degree-granting schools" phrase adds. If it is the quantity (12), I strongly doubt the literal number of such schools that Harvard as a whole has belongs in the first sentence of the lead. RedHotPear (talk) 16:40, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

• This was my point. I believe the "one of the twelve schools of harvard" language became redundant when someone added "is the extension school of Harvard University..." People can look up HarvardU and see its schools: law school, business school, extension school, divinity school, dental school, education school... — Preceding unsigned comment added by RedWhiteandMaroon (talk • contribs) 02:08, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I should also note that degrees are not offered in "more than 60 fields of study." Instead, there appear to be 13 ALB fields of study ([4]) and 24 ALM fields of study ([5]). RedHotPear (talk) 16:46, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

RedHotPear, I'm not dead set on it, but that phrase has been in the lede since 2008. I think the benefit of it is to help clarify the school's role within the university, an institution with an org chart like none other. Even within the complex Harvard universe, HES is unique. I think the 60 fields may also include certificates, but I am not positive. Not sure where that figure came from originally. Slugger O'Toole (talk) 18:08, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I had also thought that it might be the certificates. The wording would need to be changed, then, if we want to keep the number of fields. I personally do not believe the number of fields is necessary in the lead, though if the phrasing is changed to be more precise and accurate, I also do not object. RedHotPear (talk) 23:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

First lead sentence

Just noting this here in response to an IP editor who has repeatedly inserted a phrase into the first sentence of the lead, with negative implications for both grammar and content.

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school and one of 12 degree-granting schools that comprise Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

It may be subtle, but this is not a grammatically sound construction. Harvard Extension School is "the extension school of Harvard University" and "one of 12 degree-granting schools that comprise Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts," yes. But the phrase would leave a nonsensical fragment with "Harvard Extension School is the extension school," as "one of 12 degree-granting schools that comprise Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts," is its own phrase. "12 degree-granting schools" comprise Harvard University; it does not makes sense to write that the Extension School comprises Harvard University.

Content-wise, while I was initially agnostic about this, it has continued to stand out to me as an excessive and uninformative insertion that is weighing down the lead. The degree-granting function of the school is covered in the sentence immediately after, making it so that the phrase does not add any worthwhile information. It is hard to fathom what purpose it serves at all, let alone a justification for its presence in the first lead sentence. Moreover, Harvard is not primarily organized into degree-granting schools but is actually comprised of area-specific faculties that have both degree-granting and non-degree activities.

RedHotPear (talk) 01:39, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

How about

Harvard Extension School (HES) is the extension school of, and one of 12 degree-granting schools that comprise, Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Just kidding. Some time ago someone insisted on emphasizing the HES does indeed grant degrees (and for a while the push was to emphasize that it, like Harvard College, grands undergrad degrees) and thus we end up in this mess. It's bedtime soon but ping me if I forget to come back to this. E Eng 05:00, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Just dropping by to point out that things could be worse. At one point [6] the article began:

Harvard University Extension School, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, is one of the twelve schools that comprise the Ivy League Harvard University, one of the most prestigious universities in the world.

(Referring to Harvard as the Ivy League Harvard is a nice touch.) Anyway, the current text (after some minor mods by me [7]) is:

Harvard Extension School is the extension school of Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Under the Harvard Faculty of Arts and Sciences, it offers liberal arts and professional courses, academic certificates, undergraduate and graduate degrees, as well as a pre-medical program.

and that's just fine. The information, currently being edit-warred in, that Harvard has 12 degree-granting schools, is utterly irrelevant. E Eng 03:08, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Hey, y'all. In December 2019 the lede was "Harvard University Extension School is one of the twelve degree granting schools that compose Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts." Then someone added "Harvard Extension School **is the [extension school]** [and one of the twelve degree-granting schools]..." of Harvard University From this it follows that anyone who knows Harvard to have multiple schools (med, law, divinity, etc.) can surmise that [extension school] is **the school** offered for its discipline (mix liberal arts/professional). How many schools Harvard has (12) is irrelevant on this HES page, but it belongs in the Harvard U page. RedWhiteandMaroon (talk) 02:43, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

This edit war has continued to slowly burn for years now. I am really agnostic on the point, but think we need to decide one way or the other. Would a RFC be in order, or can we decide this among ourselves? --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 15:10, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Isn't just persistent edit-warring by one editor? If so, we don't need an RfC; we need that editor to be blocked. ElKevbo (talk) 18:26, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

ElKevbo, lately, yes, but this is an issue that predates anon by several years. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 18:27, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

So an editor who has used multiple sockpuppets. ElKevbo (talk) 18:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Number of academic units at Harvard University does not belong in the lede sentence

Please do not add to the lede sentence of this article that this is "one of thirteen degree-granting schools" of Harvard University. I don't dispute that fact; it simply is not among the most critical facts that readers must immediately know when learning about this specific school. To be more specific, readers don't need to know that there are 13 such units at the university. That would be fine to include later in the article - it just doesn't belong in the very first sentence, a sentence that we try to keep as concise and focused as possible. ElKevbo (talk) 03:46, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

ElKevbo - HES is one among 13 schools that makes Harvard University, is a fact (this is nowhere clearly and explicitly stated in the entire article). No source from Harvard University is given for this as well. This is an important statement in the entire article. There is no need to hide this factual information inside some paragraph or inside some sentence so people skip reading this main point. What you think is obvious, is not obvious to the other 8 billion people on this planet. Also, who decides what comes in the lead sentence/paragraph, you?

Please see source - (https://www.harvard.edu/academics/schools/) and (https://extension.harvard.edu/about/). These sources are provided nowhere in the entire article.

Wikipedia is for the dissemination of information for the entire humanity, not just you. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for all human beings. If you look at blogs and whatnot, there are people who think HES does not award degrees. Many don't even think that HES is one among 13 schools that makes the entire Harvard University, not just Harvard College. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.171.19.61 (talk • contribs) 23:01, January 30, 2023 (UTC)

Why do readers who want to learn about this school need to immediately be told that there are 13 degree-granting schools at the university? Why do they need to know, before we even tell them the school's basic location, that there are 12 other degree-granting schools at the university? ElKevbo (talk) 04:04, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Harvard Extension School is a special school because it grants undergraduate and postgraduate degrees for non-traditional students, which makes it one among 13 schools of Harvard University. This fact must be stated because other extension/continuing education schools don't give degrees - like UCLA or UC Berkley Extension. Why should this fact be hidden for your personal agenda for hiding it? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not your personal website for bias. When Harvard Uni and Harvard Ext both have a website supporting this statement, then what is your problem stating it? You should not speak for entire 8 billion readers on this planet, its arrogance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.171.19.61 (talk • contribs) 23:13, January 30, 2023 (UTC)

I don't have any strong objections to adding "degree-granting" to the lede sentence of this article. It seems unnecessary - it's rare for any "school" at a college or school to not provide degree-granting programs - but it might be helpful for some readers. I object to you edit-warring to add the number of degree-granting schools at the university to the lede sentence of this article. It's unnecessary. And between your bizarre accusations you haven't made a convincing argument for adding this information to the lede sentence.

And please sign your posts in Talk; you just need to type four tildes ("~~~~"). ElKevbo (talk) 04:18, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

It seems like the essential information that the school is degree granting is quite clearly stated in the second paragraph. I agree with ElKevbo that there really doesn't seem to be a need to mention the number of other schools. Robminchin (talk) 04:48, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Hey, ElKevbo - give credit where credit is due

Quit deleting accurate information that is added to this page. HarvardUndergrad (talk) 16:01, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Four different editors have independently removed your additions to this article. You need to make a case for it here in Talk. ElKevbo (talk) 16:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Hey HarvardUndergrad, it looks like you are new here, so it might be helpful to review a few policies and best practices. The first is the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. In a nutshell, that says "making bold edits is encouraged, as it will result in either improving an article or stimulating discussion. If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change." You have been reverted a few times now by multiple editors, so the next step is to discuss it here to change the Wikipedia:Consensus. Make your best argument here for why those details should be included, don't just keep inserting them into the article. This will help you avoid an WP:EDITWAR. If you have any questions, I would be glad to help. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 16:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. As such, it is not a compendium of every verified fact and event. It is a narrative of the most significant and noteworthy aspects of various notable subjects. In the history and context of Harvard Extension School, this content fails that test. When it's covered in mainstream publications and its importance is detailed there, it will belong in this article. SPECIFICO talk 17:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

So, here are few reasons we should include student leaders names: 1) Student leaders work hard to advocate for things and put themselves on the line when doing so in public. 2) achieving things like getting two other student councils to pass bills is A BIG DEAL and credit should be given 3) A meal plan accessible to Harvard Extension Students had never been available before and Kody Christiansen worked hard for that.

I think we should also add Misan Oteri's name to the 2016 protest post as she was HESA President at the time and led that charge - she is a council woman now in MA.

And, really, we should add all the names of the student leaders from the past to better represent all the hard work these students have done over the years.

The historic board list can be found here: https://hesa.extension.harvard.edu/hesa-historical-board

By adding a section on HESA - we uplift the organization and show the impact student governments can truly have on their fellow students. Kody Christiansen has done a lot for this school and I believe he deserves some credit as do all the HES student leaders who came before him. HarvardUndergrad (talk) 17:23, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Disagree with this line of argument as "giving credit" has nothing to do with the quality of the article. Dawkin Verbier (talk) 06:41, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Correction: While Misan Oteri was HESA President and supported the effort for the protest and degree name change, it was *Stephanie Martins* who was the chair of the 2016 Degree Change Initiative is now currently a MA city council woman in Everett, MA. HarvardUndergrad (talk) 17:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not in the business of encouraging good deeds. What about the hundreds or thousands of other student leaders at HES? If you can find discussion of this in mainstream publications that treat it as significant, please present such sources. Otherwise, it will not be included. SPECIFICO talk 18:44, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Sources:

Grad Council: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/3/29/graduate-council-financing-phrasing/

UC: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/3/28/uc-meeting-referendum/

Meal Plan creation: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/9/9/new-graduate-meal-program/

Crimson Editorial Board support should also be mentioned as this was big news: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/3/9/extension-school-degree-name/

Another impactful feature on HES and HES students: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/10/7/extension-school-scrut/ HarvardUndergrad (talk) 20:52, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

That looks rather like a bunch of references to the college paper, not discussion in mainstream publications. That doesn't really establish it as significant in the universe outside of Harvard. Robminchin (talk) 04:41, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, if that is your logic then a lot of the facts in this section on the degree controversy would have to be deleted. But, lucky for us, the Harvard Crimson is the only "college newspaper" circulated on the Associated Press -- is the AP not mainstream enough for you? HarvardUndergrad (talk) 14:01, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

You have not presented a single argument that your preferred content and sourcing meets Wikipedia policies and standards. It's not realistic to expect the article to be rewritten as you propose. SPECIFICO talk 15:20, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I am generally in favor of more details over fewer and thus am not opposed to including the names of key figures in the article as long as it is not done in an overly promotional way. That said, I agree that this is an encyclopedia and not the place to name names just because someone worked hard on a pet cause or because we want to encourage good deeds. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 03:19, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2023

This edit request to Harvard Extension School has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the second sentence, change "it is one of oldest" to "it is one of the oldest". 65.112.8.22 (talk) 14:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Done, thanks for that catch. BelowTheSun (T•C) 14:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposal not accepted

@Arbor to SJ: took out some content with a subject line saying that "message boards are not reliable sources." I reverted, pointing out that there were two citations for that sentence, including one from the Harvard Crimson. Arbor reverted again instead of coming here to talk, once again focusing on the message board. I am not going to edit war over this but will assume that Arbor has missed the fact that there are two citations, one of which is specifically named as an RS. I will revert one more time however, now that it the point is clear on talk. --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 20:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The Harvard Crimson article was about the proposal to rename the extension school, but the assertion about the proposal being rejected was sourced to the message board. User-generated sites like message boards are generally not accepted as reliable sources.

The Crimson also has this follow-up article from March 2010 about the renaming proposal, but it doesn't explicitly support the assertion about the proposal being rejected. Arbor to SJ (talk) 21:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

^ "Types of Courses". Harvard Extension School.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e Shinagel 2010, p. 214.

[1] ttp://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513113

[2] ttp://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513366

[3] ttp://www.extension.harvard.edu/2008-09/programs/alm/help/#resume

[4] ttp://extension.harvard.edu/2008-09/programs/undergrad/help/#resume

[5] ttp://www.extension.harvard.edu/degrees-programs/undergraduate-degree/getting-started-admission

[6] ttp://www.extension.harvard.edu/registration/registration-guidelines

[7] ttp://www.extension.harvard.edu/degrees-programs/undergraduate-degree/getting-started-admission

[8] ttp://www.extension.harvard.edu/registration/registration-guidelines/english-proficiency

[9] ttp://www.extension.harvard.edu/degrees-programs/undergraduate-degree/getting-started-admission

[10] ttp://www.extension.harvard.edu/degrees-programs/program-guidelines-policies/how-apply

[11] "Types of Courses". Harvard Extension School.

[FOOTNOTEShinagel2010214-12] Shinagel 2010, p. 214.

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[5]

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