Talk:Harry Männil

Harry Männil was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 7, 2010	Good article nominee	Not listed

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Männil's case

Basically the investigation found that Männil did not participate in any killings. He interrogated some people, but no more. In no case can be shown that Männil knew what could happen to political prisoners. It is notable that the 6 interrogations which were held as most promising material against Männil were held when German army has been in Tallinn for only 6 days. Authorities say that there is evidence that Männil was not aware of German anti-jewish campaign. Investigators met with all people alive who knew Männil at the time and some of them did not confirm what they said on 40's. The saying goes that many things were said in wartime because of feuds between Estonian expatriate factions. Thats also what Estonian prosecutor Margus Kurm suggests in the interview. --Magabund 11:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

citizenship

Please provide refernces and article text for citizenship. Mukadderat (talk) 19:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Männil was born on born on 17 May 1920, so he is automatically an Estonian citizen by birth. --Martintg (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

People can change citizenship. Mukadderat (talk) 15:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He has been mentioned as Estonian citizen in multiple Estonian language articles [1], [2], [3], [4] (in last one he himselfly claims to be Estonian citizen). Although I am pretty sure that he was Venezuelan citizen before restoration of Estonian independence.--Staberinde (talk) 12:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Staberinde's revert

Staberinde removed all descriptions of Männil's activities at the secret police, as well as SWC's comments: [5]. But this is exactly what Männil is notable for. He is not notable as an art collector or businessman—he is notable for being one of the most wanted nazi war criminals in the world. The article should reflect this, and concentrate on describing his activities during the war and the war crime accusations. Offliner (talk) 13:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He is not notable as an art collector or businessman—he is notable for being one of the most wanted nazi war criminals in the world.

Reference for this statement please. No average person in Estonia knows who are Mikhail Gorshkow or Evald Mikson or whoever else SWC has accused in something, while Männil is well known. Also few google book searches: "harry männil"=94, "harry männil" "nazi"=5, "harry männil" "wiesenthal"=5, "harry männil" "zuroff"=4 and "harry männil" "holocaust"=1, "harry männil" "war crimes"=0. Only known as war ciminal? Doesn't look like it. We are already giving various Zuroff's controversial accusations more coverage in article then they actually deserve compared to Männil's(living person btw) other activities. If anything we should cut this stuff even more. Also he isn't "one of the most wanted nazi war criminals", he is only in SWC's(just one private organization) most wanted list. No country wants to put him in trial for war crimes.--Staberinde (talk) 14:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You also removed Sweden's Sandel Commission's findings about him, a description of what he did for the secret police, as well as Estonian Historical Truth Commission's findings. The book search you posted is misleading. There are also many news sources: [6] - ALL of those results are news stories discussing his activities as Nazi collaborator - not his achievements in the world of art collecting. The Simon Wiesenthal Center is a very respected organization. Männil has already been banned from several countries. Offliner (talk) 15:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Estonian Historical Truth Commission? Now this is just humorous and shows lack of reliability of source that used such term. It probably means Estonian International Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity, in Estonia often referred as "Max Jacobson's commission" by its leader. Anyway that commission stated that they did not find any evidence indicating Männil's involvment in war crimes (while commission did identify several other collaborators quilty of war crimes, but this is Männil's article), and this is already mentioned in this article. Sandler's commission is also already included. About news sources, they don't really compare with books in quality and reliability, also Männil's war crime accusations wouldn't really receive even half of their current attention if he weren't already notable for other reasons. Simon Wiesenthal Center, respected or not, is still simply one private organization, that unlike real law enforcement agencies, does not need any reliable evidence to include someone in their most wanted list. Finally Männil being banned in few countries no way proves his guilt as war criminal, because countries don't need any evidence or even serious reason for denying entry to someone. Not to mention that Männil's work in political police(which nobody disputes but definitely isn't war crime itself), could be enough for being banned from USA on its own.--Staberinde (talk) 17:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And let's not forget my hearing (in person) Liz Holtzman stating "All Latvians are Nazis." If it were up to her, there would have been an ethnic cleansing of Latvians in the U.S. VЄСRUМВА ♪ 19:51, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Harry Männil/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk) 22:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: fixed two.[7] Jezhotwells (talk) 22:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Linkrot: tagged one dead link, could not find an archived version at the Internet Archive.[8] Jezhotwells (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
Rather poorly written, missing commas, commas used in appropriately, missing prepositions. I made some copy-edits in the lead and the first following section, but the whole article needs a thorough copy-edit in order to render it into "reasonably good" prose. In 1946, he moved to Venezuela, where lived for the rest of his life. Suggest that the help of the WP:Guild of copyeditors is enlisted.

The lead is rather short and does not provide a thorough summary of the article as per WP:LEAD. His war history is missing for instance

Several stray sentences that need to be consolidated into paragraphs.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
One dead link found and tagged as noted above.

Ref #1 is apparently a an untrusted connection.

Other online references check out.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:
There are a number of issues with this article, primarily that it is very badly written and it is not sufficiently compliant with the manual of style. It really should not have been nominated in this poor stae, so I am failing this nomination. Please renominate when it has been thoroughly copy-edited by un-involved editors. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:48, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Picture of Zuroff

This article is about deceased person. Zuroff has not played any significant role in the life of Harry Männil. His picture has no place in this article. If somebody would argue that his wife's or children's picture here, then maybe that would be relevant, but clearly not some unnotable detractor. --Magabund (talk) 15:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]