Talk:Hari Nef

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Morwenna Ferrier (7 November 2016). "Hari Nef: 'Identity is a dead end. It's a snoozefest'". The Guardian (London). She thinks the emphasis on gender is at risk of turning the trans community into "a freak show". The situation is, she says, "a liberal wankfest ... on my Wikipedia page, one of the first things is my identity. I hate that. It's not irrelevant, I know some of my exposure has been due to my identity, but I believe in more than that.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

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This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.

If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ+ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.

Middle name

Jacobicia is not Hari's middle name. It was Jacob, but she dropped it. The "jacobicia" is a reference to a tumblr post by Ms. Nef and is a "bye, Felicia" joke — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.171.184.79 (talk) 22:22, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Religion

User:Franzboas has added "Nef is Jewish and attended synagogue and Hebrew school as a child" with a reliable source and the edit summary "mention that she is Jewish, which is relevant given that Transparent is created mostly by Jewish people and includes Judaism as a central theme". In my view her being hired to act in a TV show with Jewish themes is insufficient and gives undue weight to her supposed religion. It would be ok to mention this in Transparent (TV series), as it may be a reason for her casting. 'Jewish' is an ethnicity as well as a religion. The mention of synagogue and Hebrew school indicates that we are discussing her religion, the source indicates that she was brought up as a religious Jew but it gives no indication of her current religious beliefs or practice. I will revert. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:04, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: The show depicts a rabbi and many (or most? maybe even all?) of the characters are practicing Jews. I think that makes her experience practicing Judaism relevant even if it was only in her past. Am I misunderstanding you, or do you disagree? Franzboas (talk) 01:26, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: Also, she plays a Holocaust victim in Transparent: https://www.bustle.com/articles/129961-what-happened-to-gittel-on-transparent-hari-nef-weighs-in-on-her-characters-season-2-fate Franzboas (talk) 01:35, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Franzboas: These facts are relevant to Transparent, but not necessarily to Nef, who was acting a part. They do not indicate whether Judaism is important to her. The current text ("Nef is Jewish.") is overweight at the start of the section, we wouldn't say "Nef is Christian" in this way if she were. I suggest that we move the mention of her Jewishness to the paragraph on Transparent where it has context, with something like this:

In the summer of 2015, Nef was cast in the second season of Amazon Prime's Transparent, which debuted in December 2015. The show deals with Jewish themes and Nef was brought up as a religious Jew. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:48, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: It's standard practice to put someone's religious background in their "Early life" section because it describes their background and upbringing rather than something specific to their work. Do you think this is a special case?

I originally put the sentence first because I wanted to keep it chronological (i.e. put it before her academic history), particularly because I originally had a mention of her childhood practice. I agree that it's abrupt, though. I think a separate paragraph at the end of the section would work better. Franzboas (talk) 01:53, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Franzboas: As you can see, I have incorporated this into a sentence about her upbringing, most of which I moved from the lead. Are you ok with this? Verbcatcher (talk) 02:15, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: This is definitely an improvement. I'm satisfied. Thanks! Franzboas (talk) 02:18, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Birth name

WP:TRANSNAME discusses Wikipedia guidelines for including the birth name of a transgender person. Hari Nef is not a victim of outing; she's an out and proud transgender woman. The facts of her transition are simply that, facts, and I see no reason not to include them.

I've also checked the article history, and it doesn't appear to be a case of circular referencing. If anyone believes the name "(Redacted)" should be excluded, please provide a reason. —Guan aco 18:17, 9 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I believe her deadname should be removed. There is no evidence in the source article that she stated her deadname to the author. It is important to note that her father was interviewed for the same piece, and that he may have told the author her deadname. She has no record of stating her deadname elsewhere. Furthermore: press tends to deadname trans women^[1], even though its citation serves no real purpose other than to cater to voyeurism surrounding transition. In the trans community, it is considered an act of violence for someone other than the trans person in question to disclose information and content sensitive to the nature of transition.^[2] 108.26.219.120 (talk) 03:28, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Riedel, Sam. "Deadnaming A Trans Person Is Violence — So Why Does The Media Do It Anyway?". Retrieved 7/23/2018. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); hair space character in |title= at position 38 (help)
^ Riedel, Sam. "Deadnaming A Trans Person Is Violence — So Why Does The Media Do It Anyway?". {{cite news}}: hair space character in |title= at position 38 (help)

I have posted a note about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Guidelines#Hari Nef. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:54, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Current Wikipedia guidelines state that a trans person's name at birth should only be included in the lead if the person was notable by that name prior to transition. However, I feel strongly that a trans person's deadname (which is what I and many other trans people call the names that were assigned to us at birth) should not be included anywhere in the article if they were not notable under that name, whether they were outed or not. Deadnaming is harmful to trans people, and avoiding that harm should take priority over readers' curiosity or desire for this information. I've talked about this issue in presentations which are available from my user page. Funcrunch (talk) 18:36, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I support the inclusion of her former name, per Guanaco's reasoning. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 17:31, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Including Ms. Nef's birth name would contravene MOS:GENDERID (guideline), which commands that: "[i]f a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name . . ., it should not be included in any page . . ., even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists." Rebb ing 04:41, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to reply quite harshly but, after looking at that guideline, I can see how this could be confusing and might lead somebody to propose this, so I won't. The policy that matters here is MOS:GENDERID and that leaves no grounds for including the deadname in the article as there is no pre-transition notability. I have also redacted the deadname above. That is not to suggest that I think it was mentioned in any bad faith, just that it is best not to have it here. We can discuss this without needing to say what the deadname is. DanielRigal (talk) 11:47, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image

Is there any reason the image was changed? I'm fine with either one, but I would put forth that a red carpet photo makes more sense for an actress/model than a Comic-Con photo that has a waterbottle and microphone in front of her face. Gilded Snail (talk) 19:42, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that this image was selected because it is more recent. I think the previous image (c:File:MJK30527 Hari Nef (Berlinale 2017) crop.jpg) is better, and is sufficiently recent. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:04, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Changed it back to the previous image. Gilded Snail (talk) 14:29, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

COVID-19 comments

One or more IP editors have repeatedly added a paragraph similar to this:

On April 11, 2020 an episode of Red Scare podcast was release featuring Hari Nef, where the actress said "We're all Anne Frank now" referring to the quarantine and self isolation experience faced by humankind during that time.

This has been reverted twice, by Lanadelol and by me. In my view this was an informal comment that is not sufficiently noteworthy to mention here. It is unlikely to have been a considered comment because it is crass to compare the inconveniences of self-isolation with the sufferings of Anne Frank in Nazi-occupied Amsterdam. Please explain why this is noteworthy or I will delete it again. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:15, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the absence of a response I have deleted the paragraph. Verbcatcher (talk) 13:43, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Riedel, Sam. "Deadnaming A Trans Person Is Violence — So Why Does The Media Do It Anyway?". Retrieved 7/23/2018. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); hair space character in |title= at position 38 (help)

[2] Riedel, Sam. "Deadnaming A Trans Person Is Violence — So Why Does The Media Do It Anyway?". {{cite news}}: hair space character in |title= at position 38 (help)

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