Talk:Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

Stewball

and i quote:

" The meter of parts of the song is identical, and the tune similar...

   A very Merry Christmas
   And a Happy New Year
   Let's hope it's a good one
   Without any fear

...to the verse of a traditional folk tune called Stewball, sung by various artists over the years including Peter, Paul and Mary and Joan Baez. John Lennon's song is not just similar, but identical to the melody of Stewball. Extracted from the following article: [1] "Lennon's composition is almost exactly the same song as 'Stewball,' only with other words attached to its melody. It is almost a case of direct plagiarism." "

how delightfully uncyclopedic, don't you think?74.121.48.170 02:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it wasn't a terribly well written section. I've removed it, since it's taken from a rant, as far as I can see, written by one man. Iorek85 09:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Single cover

I just added the single cover. there is a huge white boarder around the original, so it looks kind of small on the article page. if somebody wants to crop it they should, im just too lazy. Zzz345zzZ

A huge white boarder? I know that guy. He never even pays his rent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:C1E0:C310:A00A:FE96 (talk) 04:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Box?

I hope that putting the "Skewball" thing where it belongs (rather than among the covers) and giving it rather neutral language solves the issue with this. There are other sources that confirm the similarity, if that's an issue. (While the source brings up the word "plagiarism", "Skewball" is of course in the public domain, so Lennon was free to use its melody as he liked.)

I don't really know how the boxes at the bottom are handled, but it seems awfully strange to me to have a box for The Fray there and not one for Lennon (or, indeed, for Ono).

Brettalan 05:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The melody for Peter Paul and Mary's version of Stewball came from a version recorded two years earlier by The Greenbriar Boys, an urban bluegrass group, on a Vanguard album entitled New Folks that was released in November 1961. The melody was written by Bob Yellin, the group's banjo player, supposedly based on a Russian Folk tune he learned from his father. PPM took the melody and wrote new words without giving any credit top Yellin or the Greenbriar Boys. The Greenbriar Boys' version was covered by Joan Baez in 1964 and Mason Proffit in 1969.Joel W Sweeney (talk) 19:26, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Title

Is the title Xmas (Latin X) or Χmas (Greek Chi)? I'm sure Lennon knew the difference, and given that it's pronounced Christmas in the song suggests the latter. Lack of common knowledge about the difference is the basis for those who think Χmas is somehow dismissive of the holiday. -MJBurrage • TALK • 01:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh good grief. That's almost as pathetic as trying to explain Lennon's motivations in the lede. As if the immigrant boy wouldn't dare oppose all of the US wars of invasion, only one. Clue: you don't know what he thought. And yes, it's an ordinary X. An X. X. Get it?

2003 Mix?

When I downloaded this song from iTunes, they also showed a "2003 Mix" by Lennon. When I previewed the songs, the new mix has a much stronger bass line. I guess it was from a remaster of "Some Time in New York." Does this version warrant mention on the page?
Doctor Quest (talk) 18:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:John&YokoWARisOver.jpg

Image:John&YokoWARisOver.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

UK Chart Position

I'm sorry, but the following piece:

It is known as the "secret number one", as it reached the top of the UK Singles Chart for the week ending 3 January 1981, which was unpublished, as was usual for the Christmas week at that time. Thus, it is rarely, if ever, credited as a number one single. Record-Breakers and Trivia - everyHit.com

is completely wishful thinking on the behalf of the writer. Genesis used to dine out on a similar story about their Selling England By The Pound album.

The facts are that back in the old days of UK charts being done by shops posting back card returns to Music Week, there was no official chart between Xmas and New Year due to the postal services being on holiday (Music Week, like most British magazines, having a double issue for the Christmas and New Year period), and therefore no chart returns kept - this did not change until the days of Gallup's electronic tellers, so any claims of 'secret' UK Christmas No.1's should be taken with a bucket of salt Mark Boyle (talk) 14:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Lyrics

Is there any template to add a link to the lyrics in the Wikipedia article?. Is there any Lyrics WikiProject ?. --155.54.178.240 (talk) 11:58, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

We actually cannot add lyrics. Lyrics are generally copyrighted, so they can't be added in their entirety. We have to treat them like any other copyrighted work, meaning we can quote small sections if there is a legitimate reason, but we can't actually add the whole lyrics. For the same reasons, we generally shouldn't link to lyrics sites either; in any event, lyrics sites don't meet the requirements of WP:EL, so they shouldn't be linked. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:00, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Ochs song

Aside from the fact the two songs have similar titles, exactly what is notable about devoting a paragraph to the Phil Ochs song? Are they similar musically? 70.72.211.35 (talk) 00:03, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

No, there is no similarity. Piriczki (talk) 00:11, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I see this has been re-introduced to the article with another reference to the Doors' "Unknown Soldier". This nonsense somehow ignores the fact that "the war is over" was a very common phrase long before any of these songs were written. Piriczki (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

You seem rather quick to dismiss this as nonsense. The three sources I cited for that part (you may find them listed in the "references" section, and the corresponding page citations appear in the "notes" section) believed that the connection was significant – or at the very least plausible – enough to give it mention. Just because the phrase had been used, as you claim, before the late 1960s does not mean that it was any less inspirational or influential within that period. This is precisely the reason why I included it in the "background" section, because it provides a valid context for Lennon and Ono's billboard campaign and, by extension, the song itself. Far more important than than what I think, of course, is what the cited sources have to say about this topic. Accordingly, I believe that it is given appropriate weight, in keeping with Wikipedia policy. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 22:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The Temptations released a song called "I'm Losing You" back in the 60s. McCartney wrote "Woman" under the pseudonym Webb in the 60s. "Goodnight Vienna" was a song written in 1929. I really don't think any of these comparisons matter, because we would have to add them to quite a few song pages. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Come again? The songs by Phil Ochs and The Doors are not at all random or irrelevant like the examples you mentioned. This is not original research based on post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning: the authors of the sources I cited each draw a connection from the Ochs and Doors songs – and related elements of the anti-war protests during that time – to Lennon and Ono's billboard campaign, which in turn was the basis of "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)". I definitely would not have included this if it failed the Wikipedia policy on verifiability, but when it appears in three separate sources, it starts to look like authoritative consensus. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 23:43, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

BTW, it's credited to John & Yoko, so it's not Lennon's "7th single release as an independent artist" Hotcop2 (talk) 23:51, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Chart performance

This section states the single "did not meet with much success in its 1971 U.S. single debut" and that in the years since it "has never entered the primary Billboard charts", however, this is contradicted by the actual chart history and methodology. The single was #3 on Billboard's Christmas Singles chart in 1971 and appeared on this chart every year that it was published in subsequent years (1972, 1983–85). Singles that appeared on the Christmas charts were excluded from the Hot 100 and as for the "years since" it is uncommon for old records to appear on current charts. Piriczki (talk) 15:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I cannot quite see the contradiction. The passage you quoted reads "did not meet with much success" [emphasis mine]; I am not making the claim that "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)" was categorically unsuccessful in the U.S. If success is measured solely in terms of entering the primary Billboard charts – emphasis on primary – then, yes, the song was unsuccessful. But please note that this is not what is being claimed here. "In the years since, the original recording by Lennon and Ono has never entered the primary Billboard charts" is a factual, sourced statement, paired with factual, sourced statements about its appearance on the "Best Bets for Christmas" and "Christmas Hits" charts. Though they might be worthy considerations, an in-depth discussion of the whys and wherefores of Billboard chart history and methodology is somewhat outside the scope of this article. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 23:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The point is the record did not make the Hot 100 when it was released because it was not eligible for that chart then and it did not re-enter the Hot 100 in the years since simply because that rarely happens with any record. Including "factual, sourced" statements about the record not entering the Hot 100 without explaining why could easily lead the reader to an inaccurate conclusion about the record's chart performance. Piriczki (talk) 15:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I am not deliberately trying to be obtuse or play rhetorical games, but what particular conclusions do you think a reader might draw in the absence of that information? Why do you believe that stating the plain fact that the single has not entered the primary Billboard charts since its release, without providing additional details to explain the underlying history and mechanics of those charts, will so easily lead readers astray? In other words, what is the harm in not having it? Your desire for thoroughness is honorable and most definitely appreciated, but, realistically, it is impossible to completely preempt misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Readers bear as much of a responsibility to comprehend what they read as writers do in making it comprehensible. It is unreasonable to expect one or the other to do all – or even most – of the work: the burden falls on both sides of the writer–reader divide. That said, I am not entirely set against your position. The important thing is to work together to produce the best possible article. If you think that adding this information will bring the article closer to that goal, and the information is supported by and can be verified with reliable sources, then, by all means, do so. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 00:51, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Jamaica TV commercial

Was there a TV commercial for travel to Jamaica, aired in 1981 sung to the tune of Happy Xmas? ("Make it Jamaica, your new island home") 69.228.171.21 (talk) 06:58, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes and no. Both songs are set to the tune of "Stewball", an old folk song which is public domain. "Come Back to Jamaica", "Stewball". Piriczki (talk) 17:36, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Piriczki is correct. When rewriting the article, I actually did investigate the link with the Jamaica tourism commercial, but was unable turn up any remotely reliable source to support the claim that it was set to the tune of "Happy Xmas", outside of various non-authoritative personal assertions. Without the backing of acceptable sources to lend this claim plausibility, it amounts to subjective interpretation and someone will likely tag and remove it again. — Apo-kalypso (talk) 23:09, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Quote from 1980 interview?

In one of John Lennon's interviews, he talked about "Happy Xmas" saying "I always wanted to write something that would be a Christmas record that would last forever." This might be a useful addition to the article if anyone can find the source. I'm fairly certain it is from one the 1980 interviews but don't know which one. It also might be in audio only since I haven't been able to come up with any print sources that identify the original source. Piriczki (talk) 15:32, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

He wanted to write a Christmas song to "replace White Christmas" -- that's the quote, but I can't find it anywhere. But I will lol. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:33, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Those are actually two different quotes. "Because I was sick of White Christmas" is from a 1998 article in Uncut magazine which contains a 1971 interview. Piriczki (talk) 12:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Who made the 2003 video?

Neither this article nor the Lennon Legend: The Very Best of John Lennon (DVD) article says who made and who directed/produced (i.e. who told the makers what to make and/or had the final say). I think they did an excellent job, and think they should be mentioned in this article. Gronky (talk) 21:08, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Chart performance part 2

The article states that "on its US single debut in 1971, "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)" did not meet with much success" however, this is contradicted by the record's actual chart performance. It was a top 40 hit (#28 on the Record World Singles Chart and #36 on the Cashbox Top 100 Singles chart) in an era when radio programmers were less inclined to interrupt regular programming with Christmas records. Compared to other Christmas records such as the Carpenter's "Merry Christmas Darling" (#41), Elton John's "Step into Christmas" (#56), Greg Lake's "I Believe in Father Christmas" (#92) or Paul McCartney's "Wonderful Christmastime" (#83), it was relatively successful. In fact, "Happy Xmas" was the second highest charting Christmas record of the 1970s behind only the Eagles' "Please Come Home for Christmas." How can that be characterized as unsuccessful? Piriczki (talk) 15:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I disagree – reliable sources state that the single did not do well in the US over the 1971–72 holiday season. At best, one could say that its performance was "disappointing" relative to the high hopes that Lennon and Spector obviously had. (Regarding "high hopes", in Richard Williams' Melody Maker feature on the recording sessions, he includes a snippet of a conversation where Spector talks about "Happy Xmas" being destined for number 1, like Imagine.) Looking at the chart trajectory for the just-released "Imagine" single, it's notable how it positively leapt up the Billboard Hot 100. (It was at number 6 already, second week in, during the "Happy Xmas" sessions. "My Sweet Lord" went number 72, then 13, then 6, 2, 1; "Another Day": 55, 36, 20, 14, 10, 8, 5; but "Imagine": 20, 6, 4, 3.) Okay, "Happy Xmas" was never going to qualify for inclusion in the Hot 100, but its peaks on Cash Box and Record World were clearly a long way short of "Imagine" (which topped RW's singles chart) and even "Power to the People".

In this article, the important thing is that the qualifier regarding Billboard is there; i.e., the song didn't "miss" the Hot 100 as such. But, however unrealistic Lennon's ambitions were, given that he was recording the track at the end of October, the single clearly didn't set the Cash Box and Record World charts alight, same with RPM's listings in Canada. What is needed in this song article, under Recording perhaps, is a comment that Allen Klein had warned Lennon that promotion was going to be a problem, yet he and Spector still believed they had an immediate Christmas anthem on their hands. It didn't turn out that way, not in the US over 1971–72. The point I'm wanting to make is that the single did not meet with much success, relative to both expectations and the precedent just established with Imagine and its title track; the point you want to make is a historical one regarding the chart performance of Christmas singles in America. Those chart placings you give for other Xmas singles (on what, Record World?) are only relevant surely if a reliable source makes this comparison, or at least goes part-way to doing so. Regarding "Happy Xmas" or "Wonderful Christmastime", I can remember reading something along the lines of America traditionally ignoring Christmas singles, in comparison with the UK anyway. I'll add that if I can find it, and the new text would then invite a note giving the comparative placings for "Step Into Christmas", "Wonderful Christmastime", etc. But still, with Spector hardly a stranger to producing and releasing Christmas recordings (as he remarks in the Williams article), it's clear they were hoping to rewrite any history books or convention regarding this type of release. Having said that, all bar one of the examples you give above are singles released after "Happy Xmas", right? To me, that makes it even more of a historical/hindsight perspective you're focusing on, whereas I think it's important to address the song's commercial performance in the context of this particular release and Lennon's standing at the time (and please note: because so many sources do comment on this).

By the way, shouldn't it be Cash Box, rather than Record World, that's given in the 1971–72 chart box you added? As a rule in those end-of-article Charts sections, I've been advocating omitting or removing mentions of CB and RW, but that's always when Billboard is already included. (Otherwise, with Melody Maker and NME as candidates for inclusion also, among many more for other countries, these Charts boxes could just go on forever.) With BB out of the picture as far as the Hot 100 goes, I think it should be the CB peak that appears instead, given that Cash Box appears to have been considered the industry standard in the US during the 1970s – from what I've read anyway. JG66 (talk) 06:57, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the article should say the record did not meet Lennon's or Spector's expectations or was not as successful as his previous single. Here's a Billboard article on Christmas releases that might provide some context; it mentions late releases (related to jukeboxes though) and lack of interest from radio. It also mentions how new Christmas songs take a few years to catch on.

The other songs I brought up were just for comparison and the chart positions are from Cashbox. The releases range from 1970 ("Merry Christmas Darling") to 1979 ("Wonderful Christmastime"), and there was also José Feliciano's "Feliz Navidad" (#71 in 1970). I doubt there are any sources that make those comparisons so it probably can't go in the article. It is worth noting that none of the Wikipedia articles for any of these other songs describe them as unsuccessful. Also, for comparisons sake, the Carpenters two previous singles of 1970 were both million sellers and went to #1 and #2 and Elton John had a string of five top 10 hits in 1973 leading up to "Step into Christmas."

Billboard, Cashbox and Record World were the three major music industry magazines in the 1970s, I don't know if any one was the "industry standard," if so it would probably be Billboard.

I think the whole idea of "Happy Xmas" being unsuccessful stems from Nicholas Schaffner's book The Beatles Forever from 1977. In it he wrote "But the record, released too close to Christmas to catch fire, became the first Beatle single not to even crack America's Hot Hundred." He mischaracterized the single as unsuccessful based on its failure to make the Hot 100 but it appears he was unaware of the reason it was not included or that it did make the top 100 (the top 40 even) on the other two major singles charts. That book was one of the earliest and most popular Beatle books when it came out and a lot his narrative has found its way into subsequent books, or other authors made the same mistake. If you google john lennon happy xmas "failed to chart", you can see how prevalent this misconception is. Piriczki (talk) 15:25, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

That could be good – your suggestion "the record did not meet Lennon's or Spector's expectations or was not as successful as his previous single." But I still don't think those statements are everything on the subject. I've been trying to find a Lennon quote, something he said about the single "going nowhere" originally. In Andy Peebles' The Lennon Tapes, he says: "we messed it up, we recorded it a bit too late, we almost missed the Christmas market that year" (but that's not the quote I'm looking for). Thing is, there's no getting around the fact that Madinger and Easter (for instance) write: "For all this effort, unfortunately the 45 did next to nothing in the US when initially issued … it was really too late in the season for it to be effective saleswise." In their book Eight Arms to Hold You, Madinger and Easter really do their homework, btw; they, like Bruce Spizer, don't fall for the "missed the Hot 100" claim either. (That's what I meant above: "the important thing is that the qualifier regarding Billboard is there [now]; i.e., the song didn't 'miss' the Hot 100 as such.") I view M & E's comments as being consistent with the idea that, for an ex-Beatle in America in 1971 – especially when he's recorded a single with such high commercial expectations (unlike "Mother" obviously) – chart peaks of number 36 on Cash Box and number 28 on Record Week amount to a failure, really. Okay, they can be seen in a different light when one considers the performance of other Christmas singles during the '70s. If we can introduce something like that Billboard point regarding Christmas singles, that would be great, but I'm not sure the text there comes close enough. (I keep thinking the author's going to mention "Happy Xmas", and its recent success in the UK … but he doesn't!)

About Cash Box. I've read a few mentions of the importance of that chart over Billboard during the 1970s (and certainly over Record Week). All I can think of as an example is this quote from Gary Wright, talking about his hit "Dream Weaver": "It actually went to No. 1 in Cashbox, which, at that time, was more the industry standard than Billboard." JG66 (talk) 14:43, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Either quote from Lennon would be useful. Record World was probably the least important of the three major trades considering they went out of business in 1982. Piriczki (talk) 17:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Ah yes, that's Record World of course, not Record Week … JG66 (talk) 03:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Who played the bass?

In Happy Xmas (War Is Over)#Personnel none of the musicians are credited on bass, but I can hear a bass line in the song. I can't imagine a full band without a bass line. I know one of the musicians had to have played bass.--Kevjgav (talk) 07:33, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

In Happy Xmas (War Is Over)#Recording it says "one of the guitarists filled in for Klaus Voorman on bass", but it doesn't say which one.--Kevjgav (talk) 13:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It's never been confirmed which of the rhythm guitarists at the original session played bass. Unfortunately. Personally – and I'm just being a know-it-all who swears blind he can spot a Klaus Voormann bassline every time – I'm convinced that the bass part is actually Klaus's, replacing the one done on the first day. His playing is so darn distinctive, just like Keltner's and Hopkins' … But to save anyone else having to say it: that claim is original research on my part, pure and simple! JG66 (talk) 14:26, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Hare Krishna

Are the words "Hare Krishna" part of the lyrics or not? There are many web references that the Shaved Fish album version contains a reference to Hare Krishna and no other version does so. True or false? I would suggest some links to "sources" but who knows what is "fake news" nowadays???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by N0w8st8s (talk • contribs) 10:51, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

No. On Shaved Fish, as this song ends, a bit of "Give Peace a Chance" is mixed in. "Hare Krishna" isn't part of this song, but "Give Peace a Chance". (And I think that's probably too trivial to mention in the article.) — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 12:45, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

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Charts

Hello. I was thinking about making just one chart with the overall peak of every chart like it's used in most songs pages, instead of having its performance on the charts every year. Should I do it? ManuelButera (talk) 12:06, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

@ManuelButera: yes. I just posed the same question over at Template talk:Single chart#Happy Xmas (War Is Over). I should have checked here first! Hoof Hearted (talk) 18:36, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

The Maroon 5 Page

Lots of people covered this song, why is the Maroon 5 page on this page? It's already listed in the "other versions" section. Hotcop2 (talk) 21:35, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Wasn't it removed recently? "Other versions" should cover it, and should be enough. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:36, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

New Zealand sales : Gold singles ≥ 15,000 units (and not ≥ 10,000 units)

Hello, in the section "Certifications" sales in New Zealand are above 10,000 units but according to the source, https://nztop40.co.nz/chart/singles?chart=5254, see at the very bottom of the Web page, Gold singles indicate sales of 15,000 units and above (Platinum ≥ 30,000), at least since 2022. Perhaps the sales thresholds for singles have changed. Any info ? How is it possible to change 10,000 into 15,000 ? Thanks Carlo Colussi (talk) 11:48, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

@Carlo Colussi: With your (assumed) permission I copy this duscussion to Template talk:Certification Table Entry where it belongs. Interested parties are encouraged to join the discussion there. Muhandes (talk) 15:54, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Discussion moved here. --Muhandes (talk) 16:26, 31 December 2022 (UTC)