Talk:Hanakotoba

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Daffodil/Narcissus

Why are they the same image, kanji, and Japanese name even though they are different flowers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.39.173 (talk) 20:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because they are not different flowers. 71.184.153.210 (talk) 15:56, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reason for redirect

Today (28 Nov 2012) I changed this page to the redirect to Language of flowers, because

Any external links didn't meet WP:EL criterion.
The table was unsourced. See Talk:Language of flowers#Objective description, please for more on this issue. It's likely that it's a collection of copy of silly books or websites. I don't think many Japanese commonly understand that Amaryllis means shiness.
Then only the lead remains, but it doesn't tell anything notable, and Language of flowers suffices. This article was already created 5 years ago, and it was still a stub today. If you want to be a separate article again, you have to expand it significantly.

If you don't agree, you have to understand What Wikipedia is not first. --Ahora (talk) 09:11, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Is it worth keeping this article?

Closed as No Consensus, defaulting to Keep. However, without sources, the article is susceptible to deletion, and adequate sourcing could bring further clarity to the question of WP:Merging. Non-admin close as per request at WP:ANRFC by Van Isaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 07:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is it worth keeping this article? I think a redirect to Language of flowers suffices. --Ahora (talk) 08:31, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

OP's comment: This page is (tries to be) an article on the language of flowers in Japan, but I don't think it doesn't have any noteworthy contents. Because some pages link to here, I think it should be a redirect to language of flowers. (It may be fair to say that I deleted several links to this page, in edits [1], [2], [3] and so on.) It suffices to write topics on Japan in a section in language of flowers, and it can be split again once that section develops enough. In fact, I already attempted a redirect, but an IP user reverted, so I'm asking a discussion.

Let me be more specific. The first problem is the current lead of hanakotoba doesn't explain what "hanakotoba" exactly is, especially how it differs from the language of flowers. I'm not a total stranger; I'm Japanese (see ja:User:ahora and my contributions in ja.wikipedia ), and I know hanakotoba is popular in Japan, and many people outside of Japan seem to be interested in hanakotoba these days through pop cultures like manga, videogames, music, etc. (My personal opinion is hanakotoba is simply a language of flowers, and that's all. Many books and websites which list symbols in the language of flowers are available in Japanese, but it's so in English, too.)

Before proceeding, I explain the word 花言葉 = hanakotoba. It's almost always translated to "language of flowers", but the usage differs. You say in Japanese "the hanakotoba of rose is passion," so "hanakotoba" is "meanings (of a flower) in the language of flowers."

The second point is the table. It's not backed by any sources, thus has to be deleted, but that's not all. From the beginning, it's not possible to build a flower-meaning correspondence table in an encyclopedic manner. It's because statements like "the hanakotoba of the flower A is B in Japan" are simply myths. They're fictions. To see this, look at hanakotoba-labo.com > agapanthus entry and hankotoba.name > index あ > agapanthus, for example. (They're written in Japanese, but you can google-translate.) You see many "meanings" are enumerated, differently by the two sites. Same for other flowers. Thus it cannot be a fact that the Japanese commonly understand each flower has such meanings. (It's not limited to Japan, though, as can be seen from this site, which compares some 19c books in Europe and the US. There're many websites which randomly list symbols in the language of flowers, but they have to be considered as unreliable sources for Wikipedia. Ironically, the sites I cited served to prove there's no established hanakotoba.)

Don't take me wrong. I'm interested in how hanakotoba differs from Western culture, and how it's been influencing the world. It's also true that the meaning of a white lily is clear in Christianism paintings. (iconography) Depiction of such facts will be nice. (Recently I added some examples in ja:花言葉, on new hanakotobas given by a breeder-producer and a retailer.) Thanks in advance. --Ahora (talk) 08:31, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

- If the article appears to be groundless and a doublon to the language of flowers one, let me know and I'll ask for a delation on the French wiki; ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by LouisAlain (talk • contribs) 22:58, 14 December 2012‎ (UTC), who translated Hanakotoba to fr:Hanakotoba. --Ahora (talk) 04:00, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It appears there are several books on this topic available through Amazon.co.jp.[4] Perhaps someone living in Japan could pick up one or more of them and use them to reference the article a little bit? ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:27, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but I'm afraid it'd be of little help, although it's a natural idea.

Most of these books are simply lists of flowers' meanings, and do not explain how Hanakotobas differ from Western one. So they hardly help to write the lead of this article, and
Unfortunately most of them are like websites I cited above, and cannot be treated as reliable sources. They're just like English counterpart publications. (Or probably, those books are sources of random collection sites.) Even if there exist some books written objectively, they're buried among such unreliable books, so it's difficult to find one. It'd be better to find academic papers written on Japanese language of flowers, if any.

Anyway to write an encyclopedic page, it's crucial to understand vocabulary lists of language of flowers are artificial creation. (See for example [5] and [6].) In this line ja:花言葉 was rewritten recently, citing good sources by an excellent contributor ja:User:Bootyears. Those who speak Japanese may understand well what's the language of flowers exactly. (The section on Japan may disappoint those who innocently believe in Hanakotoba, though.) In fact, I'm going to translate it into English to replace Language of flowers, after some preparation. --Ahora (talk) 12:07, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge: It's an important topic, but this article contains only a dictionary definition and an unsourced (and likely unreliable) table. Give the apparent inconsistency between the potential soirces, I don't think we can attempt to document the accepted meanings of flowers in Japan in Wikipedia's voice. What this article could reasonably contain is some of the history, surrounding practices, and social significance of Hanakotoba. (The Japanese article makes an attempt at this.) Unless and until we can flesh that out to article length, it should be a sub-section of language of flowers. Bovlb (talk) 00:38, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The article seems best to serve as a list-class article, though I can hardly comment on the reliability of the potential sources. One way to resolve the ambiguity would be to list several popular meanings for each flower. If that doesn't work it is probably indeed better to redirect/merge the article to language of flowers. Nageh (talk) 13:11, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - [from uninvolved editor invited by RfC bot] It's hard to give a response to the RfC question without seeing some of the sources that describe this topic. The article is tagged with a "needs sources" tag. I see a comment above saying that there are sources, but are mostly (all?) in Japanese. My point is: if there are decent sources that contain enough information on this topic to meet the WP:Notability criteria, then yes, the article should stay. But if the sources are skimpy; or if the sources only discuss the topic within the larger context of Language of flowers in general, then the article should be merged. In any case, the top priority is finding sources and adding them to the article; then the merger decision will be made clear. --Noleander (talk) 06:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Amaryllis

"Amaryllis", in common English usage (maybe), seems to refer to either genus Hippeastrum or genus Amaryllis. I wonder if there is confusion about that, on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monotropan (talk • contribs) 23:05, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]