Talk:Halva/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Halva. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Attn Snoyes: The spelling halva is far more common (182k google hits) than halvah (32k). Mkweise 21:30, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Not on an English-only search though; 18k [1] vs 28k [2]. - Hephaestos|§ 05:39, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Just wanted to tell you about one possible source of confusion: A search on "halva" in any language will probably give you lots of sites talking about "half of something", as "halva" in (at least) Swedish means "half" or "half of". Actually, any short word is likely to occur in several languages with several meanings. I can think of innumerable examples but I don't want to bore you with a long list. :) Conversely, longer words (such as the rather long palindrome "saippuakauppias", soap seller, in Finnish)) might be less likely to occur in other languages and thus is less likely to show up unexpectedly in searches. Also, sometimes the language recognition used in search engines miss, especially on short pages. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.227.104.30 (talk • contribs) .

In every restaurant serving this item I've been to (mostly in Canada) I've always seen it as "halva". --Saforrest 03:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

A question... What do people think about the claim that most or all halvahs are based on semolina and sugar? Ive only ever seen ground sesame/tahini - based halvah. Ive seen this from egypt, israel, syria, and other middle eastern countries. Dface 19:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Recipes

The recepies seem to be a good source of interesting extra information in an encyclopedia article, but in general, the recepie belongs on wikibooks in the cookbook section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.66.213 (talk) 17:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Recipes - moved here from the article

Basic Indian halva

There are many kinds of halwas in India, but the most common are the carrot (gajar) halwa and the semolina (sooji or rava) halwa. Halwa is also made from atta flour. Here is the recipe for semolina halwa.

7/8 cup milk
7/8 cup water
3/4 cup sugar (1 cup if you like it very sweet)
1 cup semolina
3/4 cup butter or ghee (US: 1 1/2 sticks)
1/2 teaspoon cardamom
1/4 teaspoon nutmeg (optional)
crushed toasted pistachios (optional)
sesame and honey to taste

Melt butter or ghee over medium heat, add semolina and stir-fry for about 10 minutes until nutty aroma develops. Meanwhile, bring milk, water and sugar to a boil in a separate pot, remove from heat and stir in spices. Turn off stove and pour liquid over fried semolina while stirring rapidly to contain sputtering.

Pour into forms or let cool in pot and cut into pieces later. Serve at room temperature. Optionally, garnish with crushed toasted pistachios.

Persian halva

250 grams semolina
200 g sugar
200 g vegetable oil
1 c boiling water
1/2 cup rosewater
1/2 teaspoon saffron
crushed toasted almonds

Heat oil over medium heat, add semolina, stir-fry for about 10 minutes until nutty aroma develops and remove from heat. Dissolve sugar in boiling water, stir in rosewater and saffron and pour onto fried semolina while stirring rapidly. Garnish with crushed toasted almonds.

Greek halva

1 cup olive oil
2 cups semolina
3 cups sugar
4 cups water
1/2 lemon, sliced
1 stick cinnamon
chopped almonds
sesame seeds

Cook semolina and almonds in oil until golden. Meanwhile, heat the water and sugar just enough to completely dissolve the sugar and add lemon and cinnamon. Pour liquid onto semolina while stirring rapidly. Continue heating mixture until it thickens, then pour into cake form. Garnish with sesame seeds and serve at room temperature.

Jewish halvah

400 g tahini
oil drained from tahini plus margarine to make 1 1/2 cups
4 c semolina or wheat flour
1 c honey
1/2 c sesame seeds

Heat oil and margarine, stir in flour and cook over low flame while stirring constantly, until light brown. Then add tahini. Using a candy thermometer, heat honey to the soft ball stage (112 °C). Combine honey and sesame seeds with flour mixture and mix well. Pour onto greased form; cut as soon as solid enough.

About these recipes

I don't think these rescipees are very accurate - at least not with regard to Jewish or Arab Halva. I think one thing that Israelis and Palestinians would agree on is that you don't put flour, semolina, or any sort of wheat in the halvah! In any case - this blongs on Wikicookbooks - not Wikipedia. Generic69 00:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Halva as pudding or candy

I grew up eating middle-eastern style Halva, kind of like sesame-based fudge, somewhat fibrous, sweet and delicious. Usually sold in blocks (like fudge from a fudge store), but available in cans.

I also grew up eating a concoction that my mother cooked, under instruction from an Indian guy that boarded at our place. It was a kind of pudding or cereal, not unlike Italian polenta (in the mush version) but made with semolina, sweet and flavored with cardamom, with almonds and raisins. In consistency, quite like Cream of Wheat. In fact, the semolina used WAS Cream of Wheat

I now have an Indian colleague at work, who tells me that the latter dish is called "Halwa", and she makes it for breakfast all the time (also using Cream of Wheat). In her north-Indian version, it is a dryish mush (not too runny), but eaten with a spoon out of a bowl. Just like my mother's recipe.

If you look for recipes online, you will find that the Indian halwa or halva is almost always described as a kind of pudding or dry mush. Sometimes it will suggest that it can be left to cool and harden, and then can be sliced.

In these respects, the Indian halwa is really best thought of as a sweet analogue of polenta, which can be served as a kind of porridgy mush, or can be cooked longer, spread in a container, allowed to cool and solidify, and then grilled as a side dish or used as an alternate for pasta.

In fact, the middle-eastern and Indian "Halwa" foods seem to be fundamentally different, other than that they are both sweet. It does lead one to wonder if having the same name indicates a similar root, or if they are in fact independent food products.

I do not have time now to modify the main article, but will do so if no one else does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RonaldP (talk • contribs) 20:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

(edit) Upon further investigation, I've found an excellent article on the many faces of halva. It links the semolina-based halvas of Greece and Turkey to the sesame-based halvas of the middle-east, to various versions in the gulf and the semolina puddings of India.

http://www.gourmed.gr/greek-food/show.asp?gid=9&nodeid=78&arid=3816 — Preceding unsigned comment added by RonaldP (talk • contribs) 03:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit May 14, 2007 -- Unfortunately, the article noted above has been changed, and no longer references sesame-based halva. However, the main Wiki article here has been modified and nicely covers the topic.

RonaldP — Preceding unsigned comment added by RonaldP (talk • contribs) 00:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Deceased halva eating

I was not sure how to edit the following line. Does it mean that halva cooked in the name of a deceased person must be eaten or must not be eaten?

"It is usually cooked in the name of a newly deceased person and to restrain from eating this halva is often considered as a sin."

My apologies to the original contributor. Sjschen 21:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The meaning is clear, "to refrain is [...] a sin". You must, therefore, not restrain, so you should eat. A comma after "person" would help. Michael Fourman 2007-01-04T12:13:20

References

I added the reference to (Davidson 1999) in Harvard style as I think it makes for easier reading than footnotes. When there are multiple authorities (and this article needs more of them) then it's useful to know, as you read, on which authority a given claim is founded.

Please revert to Harvard style as per guidelines.

Michael Fourman 12:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

New source

Seasoning Savvy: How to Cook With Herbs, Spices, and Other Flavorings By Alice Arndt Has material on use of soapwort (ajwan, saponaria officinalis) in commercial tahini halva production. It would be good to incorporate this information. — Michael Fourman 09:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

In similar vein, see article on marshmallow, which refers to use in production of halva.—81.86.160.197 11:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Overhaul

I've just overhauled the article, as it had major inaccuracies.

There are two basic types of halva. They're both called "halva" and they're both sweet, but the similarities end there. I grew up eating different flavors and rescipes of Middle Eastern halvah among both Jews and Arabs. I've had hundreds of different brands and family rescipes, and every single one of them was made with tahini, and not one of them included wheat or flour of any kind.

When a Hare Krishna first gave me something that he called halva - apparently the Indian kind, I was shocked to see that it was not made of tahini and that it was made of cream of wheat and raisins and ghee! I don't think anyone from the middle east or anyone farmilar with middle eastern halva (and not indian cuisine) would recognize this stuff as halva. If I stired sugar and butter and raisins into my cream of wheat, that would not be called halva by any of the middle-eastern style halva makers I know!

At any rate, I've corrected the inaccuracies in the previous version. The article still needs some expansion and sourcing. Eventually it should proably be split into two different articles for these two completely different desserts that just happen to both be called halva. (Which probably just means "candy" in some language - etymology section would be nice too!) Generic69 01:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Indian halwa, called by the same name and recognizably similar in type, is often prepared without semolina wheat, as in gajar halwa from carrots or moong dal halwa from lentils. I've thus merged the "Other" part into the semolina section, although it's a little awkward... how about just "Indian halwa", or is that too loaded? Jpatokal 08:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Preparation/manufacturing information needed

This article no longer has recipes (and it shouldn't) but the article still should have information about how halvah is prepared, how it turns out the way it does. I came to this article wondering how the halvah I've enjoyed can be dry and crumbly when it's made from honey and tahini, both of which are sticky and runny. The article didn't have the information I sought. =Axlq 00:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The best tasting halva

Macedonian Helva is by far the best tasting one (in Dutch bread size), the plain version (without coloring additives or visible nuts and the likes). And as far as Halva is known to me, this was the one and only original. We used to be able to buy this at the Albert Cuyp market in Amsterdam (NL), they were 30 guilders for an entire bread, I recall it was about a cent per gram. They are very hard to find in stores or on markets today (2007), stopped being available in The NL around 1999, which is a pity. ALL the other ones seem to be using different ingredients, or the same ingredients but in the wrong proportions, or not prepared the way Macedonian Halva was prepared. It was much less oily, seemed more fibry, less sweet, heavier, and better tasting overall. If anyone knows where I can still find this kind of Halva, please contact me via my log. 195.64.95.116 17:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

How to make Halwa Chamia

I baught a can of Halwa Chamia in Tunisia made by a local company called Aghlabites’ confectionery The home page also explains how the stuff is made. Since there is no Tunisian section either in the article I am not adding this reference to the text myself but leave it for some other halwa lover to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.1.86 (talk) 17:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Halva for dummies.

My mom just bought some sesame halva after a trip to Greece. It has pistachio nuts, and seems compact until you try to spoon some of it out, then the halva turn in to a powder form.

The thing is, no one in the family has an idea on how to use it. I read the whole wikipedian article, but the only thing I learned was that it is used in many desserts and in Egypt:

“It is eaten for breakfast and dinner, and enjoyed with hot bread, sandwiches, and sometimes with cream (ishta). “

Is it used in the desserts when you are baking, or is it added later? And what consistence is it supposed to have?

I just think it would be nice with a concrete explanation on how to use it. (Bassphemy 20:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC))

Just cut it in cubes and eat it as candyMichael Fourman 23:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

You eat it as it is. Break it up in pieces and eat it. (SebastianGS (talk) 15:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC))

halva mmmmm

i just tasted halva for the first time, wow how good is that it had cocoa in it.

There's religious significance to Halva (at least in Hinduism) - could someone write about it?

You should try the pistachio sesame halva. I haven't tried any with cocoa but it seems pretty easy to make. Can anyone recommend a really good recipe for the lebanese sort? Family Guy Guy (talk) 05:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, there is NO particular religious significance attached to halva in Hinduism. There is prasadam, which is any food that is offered to a deity and then consumed by the public, but that can be really anything sweet or salty. On the other hand, in Sikh temples, halva is most frequently the food given out as prasadam.--129.2.109.150 (talk) 22:02, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

links

already covered in Levantine : [3] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

You conveniently forgot to remove Arab Cuisine, too. Breein1007 (talk) 05:53, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Is the Arabian Peninsula and North Africa the Levant? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

It's the Middle East. Breein1007 (talk) 20:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Arab world cover more than just mid east and levantine. "Israel" only "exist" in levantine, so levantine super cede category, so "Israel" cuisine must be remove. Ani medjool (talk) 00:14, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

"You" no make any "sense" when you post "your" comment like these one. Breein1007 (talk) 02:28, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

No More Mr Nice Guy, explain your edit:[4] when I had already pointed out that the category is covered in Levantine cuisine. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Your POV pushing is getting old. As if going around wikipedia removing the word "Israel" is going to change reality.

Anyway, If you're really bothered by the duplication feel free to remove Levantine cuisine which is covered by Arab, Israeli and Turkish cuisine. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

As I have already told you "Israeli cuisine" is covered in the "Levantine cuisine" so what exactly is "pov pushing" by removing a repeated link? There are many ethnic groups in Arab Levantine countries that are not Arabs, so of course Levantine cuisine must stay, and Israel is already represented there, so no need for repeated links. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

It's POV pushing because you removed the Israeli cuisine category, citing it as covered by Levantine cuisine, but didn't remove the Palestinian cuisine, Lebanese cuisine, or Syrian cuisine categories - which are equally covered by Levantine cuisine. Don't play favorites - it's all, or nothing. ← George^talk 23:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't remove the Israeli cuisine category, but the link to the Israeli cuisine article. And there are no links to the Palestinian cuisine, Lebanese cuisine, or Syrian cuisine because they are already covered in the Levantine cuisine. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake - I thought you were trying to remove the category (based on the title of this discussion section). I see no problem removing the See also link. The other option is adding similar links to Palestinian, Syrian, and Lebanese cuisine articles, though that's the less desirable solution, as the links section would eventually become needlessly long. You might want to try to remove the link without also inserting the Arabic word, and see if that gets reverted. I'm not sure what the point of inserting that Arabic word is, but maybe that's what editors are objecting to (and reverting). ← George^talk 00:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

No thats not the reason, breein reverted it, re adding the repeated Israeli cuisine link and removed the arabic translation, yet the hebrew translation in the Israel section he didn't remove. Typical agenda edit from a Single Purpose Account. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:04, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see now. I didn't realize you were putting the Arabic word in the section on the usage in the Arab countries of the Levant. That seems reasonable to me, so I'm unclear why your edits were reverted. However, there's absolutely no need to be rude to other editors. Even if Breein1007 were a single purpose account, this isn't the place to discuss it, and taking an accusatory tone is uncivil and unnecessarily inflammatory, and I'd suggest striking or removing the last sentence of your comment. ← George^talk 02:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Breein, explain how removing a repeated cuisine link and adding of arabic translation in an arabic section is "POV pushing" [5] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I inserted Arabic and Hebrew to make everyone happy. IMO, both are unnecessary in the body of the article. --Shuki (talk) 00:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Funny that there is a Jewish section

I just want to say how hilarious and deliciously ironic it is that all these historical Arabic/Middle Eastern dishes have been claimed by Jews/Israeli's. Hummus, Falafel, Kebab, Halva, Baklava. Stolen culinary cuisine, stolen land.

and little do they know that, that all current Arabs have Jewish blood. Hypocritical and ironic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.200.247.139 (talk) 10:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Yawn. You people sure are dull. Come up with a new theory for once, at least you'll get some laughs that way. Breein1007 (talk) 16:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Someone may be trolling. Don't feed the trolls Sjschen (talk) 16:53, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Why not? Breein1007 (talk) 17:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, for one it invites further conflict and makes resolution or constructive collaboration difficult. For more reasons look here: [6] Sjschen (talk) 10:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Its the lack of true history and connection to the region, that they have to overcompensate in other areas, to create an artificial history, artificial culture and artificial identity. As we have seen in all Arab food articles at wikipeida. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Jews lived in the Middle East long before Arabs went out of the desert in Arabia and started subjugating and oppressing people all around the world. These Jews were there before Islam, the most heinous and cruel religion the world has ever seen, was invented by a rapist nomad named Mohammad. And these Jews ate the food long before some wikipedian nobody will say that they lack true history and connection to the region. 91.135.102.195 (talk) 00:24, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

What's ridiculous is people attacking Israeli issues even on subjects like these. It's food. Israelis like them and indeed Sephardim ate them for centuries and for millenia. Halva also originated from areas outside the Middle East. Amoruso (talk) 01:01, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Bingo. Halva is not an Arabic food either, having its origins in Byzantine cuisine. A popular delicacy in Greek Constantinople. So 'stolen food, stolen land' could be applied to the Ottoman Empire and its successors just as well as it can to Israel in regards to halva. And yet, one would recognize that for petty criticism that it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.161.1 (talk) 00:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Names

Really? I see ten different pronunciations in the lede. Many are similar to each other, and it's not immediately obvious what language each is in. There's probably a better way of laying out the different names/pronunciations. Suggestions? Rodface (talk) 01:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Omani halwa

No mention of omani halwa? I am shocked and angered! (well not really, but its pretty much THE halwa of the gulf arab states) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.160.46 (talk) 08:36, 19 April 2010 (UTC) Then please start a section on Omani halwa my friend, that is how Wikipedia works. Djapa Owen 07:22, 16 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djapa84 (talk • contribs)

"served across the...."

I have difficulty with this line. I grew up in Australia eating Halwa from a young age. My ancestry is mixed but does not include any of the listed groups in recent generations. I would suggest that this phrase be replaced with something like "originating from". After all, can anyone here name a country where halwa is not available if you look for it? Djapa Owen 07:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

British pudding

In the UK, pudding simply refers to a dessert, so to state that halva has a similar texture to it is utterly meaningless. North Americans define pudding as that gooey stuff; if that's what's meant, the reference should be amended. Madgenberyl (talk) 13:12, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Kachi

There appears to be a Persian confection called kachi. This should be noted somewhere in Wikipedia, but I'm no connoisseur. I've only seen a mention in Kachi (which I suspect should be made into a dab page), but had to remove it because it doesn't belong there, and I cannot add a dab note if there is no article mentioning it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:10, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Any information on origin?

This lovely confection is widely spread from Turkey through Egypt and Levant all the way to Uzbekistan and beyond in the East. Is there are definite information though on a more specific origin? When was it first mentioned in historical records? Which are the first populations to make it? When? etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.159.149.144 (talk) 09:33, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

On the talk page of the German article, somebody quotes Andrew Dalby to the effect that there is a precursor from Ancient Greece. It could then have spread through the Middle East to Greater Persia, from whence the Mughals brought it to the Indian subcontinent. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:17, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Doubtful, at present the evidence is more supportive of a Persian origin. 71.41.122.130 (talk) 15:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Floss halva

"Pişmaniye (Turkish) or floss halva is a traditional sweet, prepared in Kocaeli, Turkey, made by flossing thin strands of halva into a light confection. Made primarily of wheat flour and sugar, the strands are continuously wrapped into a ball shape and then compressed. The result is a halva with a light consistency, similar to cotton candy." There is a product that seems similar to this description called Eskisehirin Meshur Met Helvasi that is marketed as a specialty for Eskisehir. It is not formed into balls though but into cylindrical pieces with the "floss" oriented along the cylinder axis. Following the link to Pişmaniye these types seem to be made over most of Turkey and in addition there are similar products in Iran, India and China so it is probably wrong to present them as regional (Kocaeli) specialties unless specific distinctions between the different types are presented.150.227.15.253 (talk) 17:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

flour based

One variety is popular in the Thessalian part of Greece eg: Larissa. There is also some resemblance with a Russian receipe (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%83%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B0) though it is classified as a special type of porrige(Гурьевская каша).176.63.176.112 (talk) 11:56, 14 August 2016 (UTC).

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Halva. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

N An editor has determined that the edit contains an error somewhere. Please follow the instructions below and mark the |checked= to true

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

One (emthrace) OK. Other (afs) failed. --Worldbruce (talk) 00:15, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 06:33, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Expressions - translations needed (from Bengali & Pashto or other Pakistani language not specified in article)

If someone could please provide literal translations for the following it would help make the subsection more consistent and reduce ambiguity:

"Lay halwa" ("Bengali interjection expressing exasperation or unpleasant surprise"). Obviously the word "lay" in particular needs translating. Currently the sentence is ambiguous since "lay" is also an English word ("halva" being, of course, used in English as well).
"Halva Molvi" ("to refer to religious people who are hypocritical and indulge in lavish life-styles"). Again, the word "molvi" needs a literal translation here.

Thanks. --Philologia (talk) 20:58, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Regions

Don't you think that mentioning Western Asia already removes the necessity of listing The Middle East and Caucasus, because the mentioned Western Asia includes those territories? *I know Egypy is thougt under the Middle East as well, lying outside Western Asia, but this problem is solved with the mentioning of North Africa. And so does the mentioning of Eastern Europe remove the necessity of listing the Balkans, cause you know,the Balkan peninsula is just a part of Eastern Europe.

I', appealing to the logic that by listing continental entities like Western, Central and South Asia, North Africa (+its Horn) and Eastern Europe makes the list complete and there really is no need in making it any bigger.

Long Live Halva! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.172.139.246 (talk) 18:04, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

"Cultural use"

I cannot believe there is not a single mention of Arabic people. Someone is peddling something here. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:47F:216D:4FCB:F1C4:21A9 (talk) 13:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Why not do some work to improve the article then, instead of complaining that other people haven't? See WP:FIXIT. --IamNotU (talk) 13:25, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I just did FIND on "Arab" and the count is 10. Pi314m (talk) 21:27, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Parentheses

I have twice reverted this edit: [7] by Mhhossein that added the parentheses to this sentence:

The word halva entered the English language between 1840 and 1850 from the Romanian Yiddish: חלווה, romanized: halva, which came from the Ottoman Turkish: حلوى helva, itself ultimately derived from the (Arabic: حلوى, romanized: ḥalwá), a sweet confection.

I don't see any reason for this change, which to me is clearly incorrect. The sentence part is not parenthetical or a gloss. It's also inconsistent with the other parts of the sentence that are exactly the same. The latest edit summary was: See the MOS, specially MOS:FOREIGNITALIC and MOS:BADITALICS, for the examples. Those sections are about italics and say nothing about parentheses. Although the sentence could possibly be re-written in a way that uses parentheses, I don't see a need for that; in any case this is certainly not the correct way to do it. --IamNotU (talk) 23:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

@GeneralizationsAreBad: As an experienced GOCE member, do you think my adding of the parentheses was not necessary? --Mhhossein ^talk 07:25, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Mhhossein, GeneralizationsAreBad hasn't been around since March. Fyi, I'm a native English speaker with experience in copy editing and proofreading. Parentheses are used when the text inside them is parenthetical, i.e., an aside to the main sentence. If you remove it, the sentence should still stand on its own. For example, in this sentence:

Manakish (Arabic: مناقيش‎, romanized: manāqīsh), or in singular form man'ousheh, or other spellings...

the parenthetical text can be removed, and the sentence still works:

Manakish, or in singular form man'ousheh, or other spellings...

but this:

...helva, itself ultimately derived from the (Arabic: حلوى, romanized: ḥalwá), a sweet confection.

can't be, because it's a integral part of the sentence:

...helva, itself ultimately derived from the, a sweet confection.

You're welcome to ask for third opinions, but you'll probably find the information just as easily in a general reference for English grammar, about the use of parentheses. I hope that answers your question. --IamNotU (talk) 01:28, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment IamNotU. I agree with you on the use of parenthesis. But do you think 'lang' template would be a correct syntax for this purpose? I mean shouldn't be re-written into:

helva, itself ultimately derived from the Arabic word 'حلوی' (ḥalwá), a sweet confection.

--Mhhossein ^talk 12:21, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Use of {{lang}} or a related template is mandated for all non-English text, see MOS:OTHERLANG, Template:Lang § Rationale, etc. The {{langx|ar}} template is convenient and though it's maybe not the most elegant, I don't see that anything stands out as being wrong with it, do you? Regarding your suggestion, I would say that the Arabic script should not be in single quotes, the romanization should be italic, and probably I'd put it first, maybe something like: the [[Arabic]] word {{transl|ar|ḥalwá}} ({{lang|ar|حلوی}}) "the Arabic word ḥalwá (حلوی)"? Or just leave the Arabic script out, as the sources do. As I said, the sentence could perhaps be improved by writing it some other way, but I'm not sure that it's worth spending a lot of time on it. --IamNotU (talk) 18:45, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation IamNotU. Also do you think applying ":" would be correct out of parenthesis? --Mhhossein ^talk 13:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Again, it doesn't stand out to me as being incorrect, though there may be other ways to write it. Some might object to more than one colon in a sentence, but I'd think that would be true whether it's in parentheses or not. There is a consensus about the format of the {{lang-xx}} templates and they are widely used, not only within parentheses, for example: Algeria § Name, Hajj § Etymology, Transjordan (region) § Name, etc. If you feel that their use in running prose should be prohibited as being incorrect English, or violating the style guide, it would probably be better to take it up on a more general talk page, like Template talk:Lang, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, or Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting. Maybe there has already been some discussion about it there. --IamNotU (talk) 15:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

No, no further discussion is required given your explanations and your expertise in copy editing and proofreading.--Mhhossein ^talk 15:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)