Talk:Halime Hatun

Untitled initial comments

Hayme Hatun and Halime Hatun in the literature usually refers to the same person. There are no proofs about the identity of Suleyman Shah. Who was her wife? and who were his descendants? Was he the father, grand-father or grand-grand-father of Ertuğrul Gazi? Who are their mothers? Similar questions cannot be answered accurately and the stories based upon rumors.71.191.6.55 (talk) 17:02, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

While there are many missing generations between Ertuğrul Gazi and Suleyman Shah, no reliable information about the mother and father of Ertuğrul Gazi is available and all stories are based upon the rumors..71.191.6.55 (talk) 17:11, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Can the article be improved?

Started a discussion here: [1]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:23, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

There may be more than one Halime Hatun Halime Hatun Kümbeti'nin önüne yurt yaptılar. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:20, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

information from Turkish tv-serie's

information from Turkish tv-serie Diriliş: Ertuğrul is not True, Diriliş: Ertuğrul is a Fantasy tv-serie, They have not Sources & References) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.96.224.186 (talk) 20:18, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Are there any useable sources at all?

Asked at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2019_February_11#Halime_Hatun. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:26, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

New info

FrostySnows, the biography bit here [2] sounds interesting, do you have a decent secondary source? Or failing that, the primary source? It sounds plausible, but switching unsourced stuff for other unsourced stuff doesn't help me as a reader. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:46, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

There is no reference at all to this 13th C. Halime being from a royal family in the few refs that describe her as a wife of Ertugrul's.....that was started with the tv series and is fiction. But I agree we need a primary or secondary source. This is where I got that line....it's from a Turkish group that runs a historical blog. https://tarihturklerdebaslar.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/dirilis-ertugrul-dizisindeki-tarihi-hatalar/ Definitely need to look into getting another source that confirms this but for now it's always better than something completely made up out of the blue. Since there is no reference to her as a Sultan ever in any source, we should keep her title as "Hatun" and not let fiction obscure that! FrostySnows (talk) 22:04, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

That blog (I can't read turkish and google translate doesn't do a very good job here) may well be right, but it's a blog and shouldn't be used. I've searched for historybooks etc that bothers to mention her, but haven't found any. Maybe I'll nominate it for deletion someday, it's really crappy. Something similar to this [3] published by a decent source (not tabloid) could also be useful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:47, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Approaching edit-warring

Myself and another editor are, slowly but still, coming near WP:EW-territory, [4][5][6]. Editors, if you have an opinion, please share. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:29, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

IMHO the "other editor" is coming near WP:DE-territory, if not already inside...--Phso2 (talk) 04:43, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. Gråbergs Gråa Sång is in the right. The "other editor" has regularly made problematic edits in the past, which have been reverted several times. Teavannaa (talk) 23:47, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Sources, of courses

Pinging Teavannaa and also Keivan.f, because you edited the article and seems to know the language. Other interested, please join.

About the Turgut Güler book[7], assuming it's a good source, could you, Teavannaa, translate the relevant bit? Then we could add it to the citation, there's a "quote" parameter (see WP:NOENG). And if you have the pagenumber, that's good too.

Now, current sourcing.

Her origins are unknown; she is variously referred to as "Hayme Ana" and "Khaimah" in later mentions,[2]

Ok afaict (I don't read the language).

and is not mentioned by name at all in the earliest Ottoman histories written in the 15th century. According to obscure mentions in later Ottoman legends, she was the daughter of a Turkmen Bey. Some legends described her as the mother of Osman I,

IMO we desperatly need some decent sources that has bothered to write this down.

however, historian Heath W. Lowry, among other Ottoman scholars, states that Osman I's mother is unknown.[3]

Source is only good for Heath W. Lowry.

The burial place of Halime Hatun is located in the garden of the Ertuğrul Gazi's grave in Söğüt.

A good source would be nice, but the one in the infobox is better than nothing.

According to historian Cemal Kafadar, the 19th century "recovery" and "rebuilding" of this tomb by Sultan Abdul Hamid II, with an inscription (which doesn't mention a name) added later, was politically motivated and "Hayme Ana", buried in Domanic, was most likely the wife of Ertuğrul.[4]

Good source but doesn't mention Hayme Ana, at least not at the page given (185). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Also, does WP have an article on the "Melik Izeddin" mentioned here? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:14, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh yeah, was the wife of Ertuğrul Bey, according to some Ottoman legends. could use a good source too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:39, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Page 17 in this book [8] mentions her. What does it say and is it a useful source? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:52, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

[9] mentions Hayme Ana, same question. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:21, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Turgut Güler explicitly questions the traditional account. Here is the relevant passage:

Türbenin bahçesinde, Ertuğrul'un hanımı Halime Hâtûn'a âit bir mezâr yer alıyor. Ancak, burada bâzı bilgi yanlışlıkları olmalıdır. Ertuğrul Gâzi'nin hanımı ve Osman Gâzi'nin annesi olan muhterem kadının adı “Hayme Ana”dır, mezârı da Kütahya'nın Domaniç ilçesine bağlı Çarşamba köyündedir. Ertuğrul Gâzi Türbesi'ni tâmir ettiren Sultan İkinci Abdülhamid Hân, aynı yıllarda Hayme Ana Türbesi'ni de âdetâ yeniden yaptırmıştır. Dolayısıyla, Söğüt'de varlığından bahsedilen Halime Hâtûn mezârının, bir başka rahmetliye âit olması lâzımdır.

In the tomb’s garden, there is a grave belonging to Ertuğrul’s wife, Halime Hâtûn. However, here there must be some information mistakes. The name of the esteemed woman who was the wife of Ertuğrul Gâzi and mother of Osman Gâzi is “Hayme Ana”, and her grave is in the Çarşamba village of Kütahya’s Domaniç district. Sultan Abdülhamid II, who had the Ertuğrul Gâzi Tomb repaired, also had the Hayme Ana Tomb as good as rebuilt in the same years. Therefore, the grave in Söğüt said to be of Halime Hâtûn, must belong to another deceased.

So he appears to be aligned with Cemal Kafadar in identifying Hayme Ana (which means “Mother Hayme”) as the mother of Osman. The Turkish Wikipedia states that Hayme Ana was the wife of Suleyman Shah and the mother of Halime Hatun. Of course, there can have been several individuals referred to as “Hayme Ana”. The spelling “Khaimah” is simply a different transliteration.

At the time no one could foresee the politically inspired historical significance these people would acquire many centuries later, so no one bothered to record much for posterity. There is only so much one can do today to reconstruct history. I think there is little hope we can untangle the knot by examining more sources in depth; the best is to simply report the various theories.  --Lambiam 09:32, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Lambiam, that's helpful. So the Hayme Ana buried in Çarşamba has this article: Hayme Hatun? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:15, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Definitely. The sources disagree on whether she was the grandmother or the mother of Osman.  --Lambiam 11:01, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

There seems to be intersting stuff in that book for the Ertuğrul article too, feel free to translate more ;-). Before I start using this source left and right, what is a fair description of Turgut Guler? Historian? Author? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:34, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

According to this long bio and this short bio he has academic credentials as a historian, but not beyond the graduate level. He is the author of several books on historical subjects written for a larger audience. My impression is that he does not do historical research for its own sake and then decides to report on his findings, but rather selects a topic to write about and consults sources as necessary for the task. It would seem that “author” is the more apposite description.  --Lambiam 11:01, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Again, thanks. I was hoping for "better", but IMO useful. Clearly better than say [10]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:12, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Revert

I reverted a few new edits [11], here's why: Osman is not infobox fact, since we don't know to what extent this Halime existed (neither is Ertuğrul, come to think of it). The wikilink for Hayme Hatun comes later in the text and makes more sense there. Spelling of Izeddin is per [12], seems reasonable. Per WP:EL MOS:SEEALSO we don't add links that is also in the article text to "See also". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:06, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Looks good to me! You also did a great job in mentioning the other known Halime personages and making the distinctions between them clear. Teavannaa (talk) 20:20, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

The Gevaş tomb of Halime Hatun should be a separate article

The section on "Gevaş tomb" would be better to develop as a separate article. The tomb was built for a woman in the late 14th century. She is a completely different person than the woman discussed in the rest of the article as the wife of Ertuğrul Bey.Mahrujan (talk) 11:12, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

From what I have found, there's not material for a separate article, see WP:GNG. There are mentions but they are mostly very short. The article makes it clear that she's a different person. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:08, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes.. I don't think much is known about the woman for whom the Gevaş tomb was built but there are studies on the tomb itself (almost all of it in Turkish, however) which would allow for the creation of a separate article (on the building, not on the woman). In the case of this article, which is about a debated personality and not about tombs or buildings, perhaps the section heading can be revised to something like "Halime Hatun in Gevaş". Just a suggestion. Mahrujan (talk) 11:27, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I think I see your point. "Gevaş tomb", taken on its own, can be read as suggesting that this section is about the same person. "Halime Hatun in Gevaş" or similar may be an improvement. However, if you want to try to write an article on the Gevaş tomb, per WP:NOENG using Turkish sources is not a problem in itself, as long as they are reliable.

Then we can put something like

For the Halime Hatun buried in Gevaş, see Halime Hatun tomb.

in this article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:53, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The mother of Osman Bey

According to Halil İnalcık, the father of Ertuğrul is either Suleyman Shah or Gündüz Alp and he decided that Gündüz Alp is more probable to be the father of Ertuğrul. He disputes that other writers were confused of Suleyman Shah with the ancestor of Gündüz Alp i.e. his grandfather MIR SULEYMAN ALP. I suggest that you merge these two articles under The mother of Osman Bey and discus these matter there.108.18.143.93 (talk) 23:42, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello! I don't think I understand. What articles should be merged to Hayme Hatun? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Halime Hatun and Hayme Hatun should merge to each other. According to Sakaoğlu, Necdet The mother of Osman Bey is Hayme Hatun. He writes that Hayma Ana was The mother of Osman Bey, not Ertuğrul. Nobody talks about the mother of Ertuğrul, but Hayma Ana article here in Wikipedia says she was the grandmother of Osman I. Hayma Ana and Halime Hatun are identical to each other or being confused with other people. See discussion in Ertuğrul Gazi by Halil İnalcık about the father of Ertuğrul as well.

The position of Süleyman Şah and Gündüz Alp in the family tree of Ertuğrul and Osman Gazi

Extended content

Family tree in Yazıcızâde Âli's Tevârih-i Al-i Selçuk Gökalp Ertuğrul Tündar (Dündar) Osman Gazi Family tree in Enverî's Düstûrnâme-i Enverî Gazan Mir Süleymân Alp Şehmelik Gündüzalp Gökalp Ertuğrul Osman Gazi Family tree in Şükrullah's Behcetü't Tevârîh Oğuz Gökalp Kızıl Buga Kaya Alp Süleymanşâh Ertuğrul Osman Gazi Family tree in Hasan bin Mahmûd el-Bayâtî's Câm-ı Cem-Âyîn Kaya Alp Süleymanşâh Ertuğrul Savcı Bey Osman Gazi Gündüz Bey Family tree acccording to Karamani Mehmet Pasha: Oğuz Han Kayık Alp Sarkuk Alp Gök Alp Gündüz Alp Ertuğrul Osman Gazi Family tree in Âşıkpaşazâde's History of Âşıkpaşazâde Oğuz Kayık Alp Gökalp Basuk Kaya Alp Süleymanşâh Ertuğrul Saru-Yatı (Savcı) Osman Gazi Gündüz Alp Bay-Hoca Aydoğdu Family tree in Neşrî's Kitâb-ı Cihannümâ Süleymanşâh Sunkur-Tekin Ertuğrul Gündoğdu Tündar (Dündar) Saru-Yatı Osman Gazi Gündüz

108.18.143.93 (talk) 19:38, 18 June 2020 (UTC) 108.18.143.93 (talk) 04:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 30 September 2020

Halime Hartun is the wife of Ertugrul Bey and mother of Osman Gazi I 213.48.246.73 (talk) 16:04, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 17:48, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

halime hatun

halime hatun was an honorable person — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:E4A2:A600:B96A:B2A3:1295:E32D (talk) 12:26, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Quite possibly. But as it says at the top of this page, "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Halime Hatun article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:54, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

"Some recent(when?) legends described her as the mother of Osman I;(citation needed)"

@Lambiam@Beshogur@IAmAtHome, other interested.

This annoys me, and I wonder if you can find anything anything useful in your sources, even something primary sourced like X stated in 1889 that the name of Osman I:s mother was HH.

When did the idea "HH = Wife of E/Mother of O" appear, and who said it? Obviously the idea doesn't have any great support among scholars, but someone must have started it. Did the Abdul Hamid II administration make it up, or was it already around when they built the E tomb?

Also, would it be a good idea to rename/rewrite this article as Mother of Osman I, with HH as a redirect? I think the mainstream historians agree that he had a mother, possibly supported by the mainstream biologists. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:06, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

If there is no info, we can just remove it. Beshogur (talk) 09:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

It's an option. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning. As I think the fact about the mother of Osman I, is coming (like folklore) traditionally in Turkish History. Check these 1, 2 & 3, 4. I have no access to these books. @Beshogur:These should be checked, may give any clue (especially 3 which is available but I'm not able to translate it). IAmAtHome (talk) 18:58, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

They don't look like credible sources. Also why is Hayme and Halime both in this article? I really have no clue about this Halime Hatun issue. Beshogur (talk) 21:06, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

You are right too. But I don't know why some Turkish publishers give the name of Osman's mother 'Halime' (like a, b & c) without any historical mentions. This (pp.43 to 46) about Tomb of Ertuğrul looks important. It is in Turkish, I'm unable to translate it. It gives information about the graves. IAmAtHome (talk) 04:55, 11 May 2022 (UTC)