Talk:HMS Romulus (1785)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk · contribs) 11:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will take a look at this shortly. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I wondered if your interest might be piqued by an 18th century sailing frigate. --Ykraps (talk) 19:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Always exciting when a GAN turns up with a topic I actually own the sources for! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prelim

Images are correctly licensed, but suggest cleaning up the captions. E.g. links for "Flora-class frigate" and Landing troops at Aboukir Bay, italicise and remove the disambiguation on the Romulus model, and add that the Romulus drawing is a plan of her

Done. Re image of model - By the same token that the disambiguation is unnecessary, I reasoned that 'British sailing frigate' was also redundant. I've rewritten the caption entirely. See what you think. --Ykraps (talk) 07:43, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No edit wars
Corsica is a duplicated link

Removed. --Ykraps (talk) 07:43, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Earwig reports 0% chance of copyvio

Lede and infobox

"HMS Romulus was a 36-gun Flora-class fifth rate frigate of the Royal Navy"
Added --Ykraps (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Currently suggests to the leader that Romulus only began service in 1793, suggest adding her original commissioning date in the lede
Gone for launch date instead but if you really want original commissioning date, I can change. --Ykraps (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fine as is. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Samuel Hood should more rightly be "Lord Hood"
Changed. --Ykraps (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link ships of the line
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're underselling the battle of Genoa by re-naming it as "an action on 14 March 1795"
Changed. --Ykraps (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Either give ranks in the lede or don't, but avoid switching between "Samuel Hood" and "Commodore Horatio Nelson"
I don't think you can have titles and ranks together (I could be wrong) so gone for Lord Hood and Commodore Nelson. Happy to have Hood's rank instead of title though. --Ykraps (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well apparently some sources think it's okay to use titles and ranks together so perhaps I'm wrong. Added Admiral. --Ykraps (talk) 13:40, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Nelson's ship Minerve" missing the HMS
Added --Ykraps (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link the Abukir landings to Battle of Abukir (1801)
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Imo "she was paid off" works better in all examples, avoids giving the ship too much independence from the crew!
Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"When hostilities resumed" give a date here or link Napoleonic Wars, either works
Date given.--Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link floating battery
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link recommissioned
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link broken up
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"She paid off that December..." remove one of the "final"s from this sentence to make it flow a little better
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Add commissioning date to infobox
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link broken up again
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Class and type should more fully be Fifth rate Flora-class frigate
Okay. Don't think I've ever noticed that before. The parameter only says 'class' so I've previously only added the class. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The parameter says "class" but the infobox says "class and type"! Weird, isn't it? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Add both lengths rather than just the gundeck
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest limiting your conversions to 1 decimal place, we don't need that much detail!
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stipulate that the draught measurements are forward and aft respectively
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Add her swivels to the armamament
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link gundeck, quarterdeck, forecastle, 18 pdrs, and carronades
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You can include the ship namesake in the infobox and text. Manning, T. D.; Walker, C. F. (1959). British Warship Names. London: Putnam. p. 378. OCLC 213798232. cites that Romulus is named after Romulus, "The legendary founder of Rome".
If this is a dealbreaker then okay but I've always tried to avoid adding the namesake. The Admiralty usually selected from a list of available ship names so despite what Messrs Manning and Walker say, I think it far more likely that she was named after HMS Romulus (1777). --Ykraps (talk) 06:25, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think a strong argument could be made that the Admiralty was naming the ship in replacement to the 1777 vessel rather than after it, but it's a minor point and not one that will stop this article at GA. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Construction and armament

Not necessary to discuss in great detail outside of the class article, but a sentence or two on how the class was designed in response to the success of French large frigate designs (per Winfield) would be useful
Added a sentence. --Ykraps (talk) 07:28, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I notice you only use Winfield for this section, which is fair enough but could do with a little expansion if the article were to go any higher than GA. That said, I've checked Gardiner's Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars, Warships of the Napoleonic Era, and Heavy Frigate, and they provide little more on Romulus. One thing that deserves mention either in this section or chronologically later on is p. 102 of Heavy Frigate, which notes that the 26 March 1803 conversion to harbour service saw her armed with twenty-four 18-pounder long guns and eight 18-pounder carronades
This is mentioned but Winfield records that all were long guns. I can add a footnote for Gardener's spec, if you like. --Ykraps (talk) 07:11, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A note sounds good. Always useful to note any disagreements among the (ahem, very few) naval historians that cover these ships. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Added. --Ykraps (talk) 17:35, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link Sir John Williams (note the knighthood) and add that he was Surveyor of the Navy
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:39, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No need to have the inches figure for the keel length
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:39, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strange that Winfield doesn't provide Purnell's forename. Awkward if you were to provide one but not the other though
I thought so too so left out Greaves' forename. --Ykraps (talk) 07:06, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest removing everything apart from the pounds in the costs. I find the smaller figures really aren't useful to anyone and confusing to those who don't understand the older ways of the currency
What I like about the Lsd format is that it immediately indicates that these are not decimal pounds and not today's prices. --Ykraps (talk) 07:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link launched
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 07:06, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your draught figures shouldn't be abbreviated
Not sure I've understood this. Are you talking about the template parameter that abbreviates the units of measurement? The figures are accurate within 1/2 inch. --Ykraps (talk) 07:06, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You've fixed it. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link 18-pounder long guns
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:39, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Upperworks" is a little too much of a vague technical term for usage
Okay, used quarterdeck and forecastle. --Ykraps (talk) 07:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stipulate that the main battery was on the gun deck; or would it be more appropriate in a frigate to call it the upper deck?
Upper deck, I think. --Ykraps (talk) 07:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ibid with the location of the other guns on the forecastle and quarterdeck
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 07:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Paragraph beginning "Launched on 21 September..." in the following section is a repetition of information in this section. Suggest slightly rewording this paragraph and moving the entirety of it into the construction section rather than the service section
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 07:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Service

"Romulus had cost the Admiralty £15,345 5/4d" is unreferenced
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 07:41, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest beginning this section by explicitly stating when Romulus was first commissioned, because right now it's not guaranteed from the text that Frederick was her first captain
Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Make sure all people are given their (linked) ranks on first mention; Frederick doesn't get his while one line later Sutton does!
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link refitted
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"she was blockading" > "Romulus was blockading"; use the ship's name on first mention in a new paragraph
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hood needs his rank; I won't repeat again if there are more examples of this, assuming you've picked up by now! (also, just "Lord Hood" is probably better to avoid people thinking this is a guy with the first name samuel and the middle name lord!)
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Prince Royal of Sweden" full stop missing afterwards
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You currently switch between how you introduce warships. Try and stick with one style, e.g. every new ship is "the [number of guns] HMS XXX" or similar. Again, won't repeat every example of differing styles!
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link occupation of Toulon
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link prize money
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Decide when you're going to use HMS too; you use HMS once at the beginning of the list of ships starting with HMS Victory, but use HMS for every ship in the list beginning HMS Agamemnon, and don't use HMS at all when introducing Leviathan
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Give Dundas his rank
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link San Fiorenzo
Saint-Florent is linked to Saint-Florent. I could delete it and move it up to San Fiorenzo but that seems less appropriate. --Ykraps (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link scuttled
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"19 February 1794" no need to repeat the year
Removed. --Ykraps (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link ships of the line
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"98-gun Princess Royal" Princess Royal has already been linked, don't introduce new statistics about her after the first mention. Promise I won't bring up these details again, I know you'll deal with them!
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Hood returned to Corsica" when?
Don't know but he arrived at Calvi on 27th. Added. --Ykraps (talk) 07:29, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"French escaped back to Toulon" when?
Neither Clowes nor James say. I'll check some other sources. --Ykraps (talk) 07:29, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Give Hope his rank
Hope's rank is already give, '..Hope became captain' but can put first if necessary. --Ykraps (talk) 06:56, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Believe it's necessary. An officer of any rank would have been termed the "captain" of his ship, even if he was a lieutenant with a little brig. Hope is a captain both by rank and position. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not a problem. Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"the recently captured Berwick, which had been undergoing repairs at Corsica when taken." this isn't true; while having recently undergone repairs, Berwick was captured at the Action of 8 March 1795
It's not very well explained now I come to think of it. Clarified. --Ykraps (talk) 07:55, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Corsica link here should be moved up to the first mention of the port
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:56, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You say "Following temporary repairs", but this suggests Romulus had been damaged beforehand which isn't actually mentioned
It does say the ships were storm and battle damaged but I've moved this to the front of the sentence. --Ykraps (talk) 06:04, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Romulus and her compatriots left the bay" this bay hasn't actually been mentioned before. I assume you mean Valence Bay where Illustrious was wrecked
No, Spezia bay. It was mentioned earlier but worth repeating here, I think, so added. --Ykraps (talk) 06:00, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"San-Fiorenzo" you switch between using the hyphen here and leaving it, choose one or the other!
Removed. --Ykraps (talk) 06:56, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link roads (at first mention, not here, I've only just realised the link was missing though!)
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:56, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"in January the following year" the year hasn't been specified yet in this section, so suggest mentioning it here to assist those who enjoy skipping parts of the text
Skipping parts of the text? How dare they! :) Added. --Ykraps (talk) 06:00, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The capture of Concordia is out of chronological order, and the year doesn't need repeating
I’ve kept Concordia separate because, unlike the others, she wasn’t captured by ‘Romulus’. I initially tried to weave it in chronologically but it made the sentence too convoluted and clunky. I added it as a ‘oh, and also…’ thing. If you think Romulus being in sight is too trivial, I can remove entirely. It’s something I wouldn’t include in the text if there was a table of prizes. --Ykraps (talk) 06:00, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Commodore Nelson" Nelson hasn't actually been mentioned in main text yet, give his full name and link rank and name
Good spot. Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link transports
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link colours
~~Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)~~[reply]

Changed my mind on this. Is it not better to link to false colours? --Ykraps (talk) 06:59, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Believe I was referring to the earlier "where they flew French colours" Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect. We can get both links in then. Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:54, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You italicise ruse de guerre in the lede but not in main text
Wasn't sure about this. I've removed italics per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Text_formatting#Foreign_terms which says don't use italics for foreign phrases in common English use. I reasoned that if esprit de corp is common, so is ruse de guerre but the former gets 90 million ghits whereas the latter only gets 13 million ghits (whatever that signifies). --Ykraps (talk) 06:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You say "The squadron subsequently sailed to Barcelona" which makes me assume Minerve and Romulus have joined up with the aforementioned larger squadron, but this isn't the case; could be reworded for clarity
I was, of course, referring to the two-vessel frigate squadron but I agree this could be confusing. Gone for 'the frigates'. --Ykraps (talk) 07:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"36-gun, 12 pound frigate HMS Mahonesa" another unique way to introduce a ship! keep to one type!
I thought it important to indicate that this was not an 18-pounder like Romulus but okay. --Ykraps (talk) 07:45, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What's your rule for stating years? We don't repeat them within the same paragraph, but editors differ between not repeating the year again once it has been stated once at all, or repeating it at the first mention in every new paragraph/section
As you've probably gathered, I don't have hard and fast rules. I find Clowes frustrating when he writes 12 pages and then says 'The following summer...' so I like to mention years at least every paragraph unless it's obvious because, for example, the previous paragraph ends with a year. Are there any guidelines on this? --Ykraps (talk) 07:45, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen GA reviewers go both ways, so as long as you're consistent with either repeating the year or not repeating it, it's probably fine. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest stating that Nuestra Senora del Rosario is a corvette when you first describe her rather than after the capture
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 07:45, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Give Heathcote his rank
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 07:25, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Culverhouse doesn't seem notable, but it would be useful to say that as a troopship Romulus was under the command of a commander and then a lieutenant
I've added the names for clarity nevertheless. I tried without and found it a bit confusing. (perhaps that says something about my writing skills) --Ykraps (talk) 08:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"30 September 1800" repeated year
Removed. --Ykraps (talk) 07:25, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Use the aforementioned Abukir Bay link here too
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 07:25, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"thirty-two 18lb long guns" this is the only time you spell out a number in double digits, and also the only time you use "lb" rather than pounds/pounder
Yeh, I think it looks a bit odd when two figures are directly adjacent. Changed. --Ykraps (talk) 07:25, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"quarter deck" I'd like you to mention the quarterdeck in the armament section but as of now this is the only mention in the text, thus requiring a link here
Winfield doesn't go into anymore detail about the distribution of the guns so I've removed and just left it as 32 x 18-pounders. --Ykraps (talk) 07:25, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thomas Staines, Woodley Losack and Lord Balgonie are notable and could be mentioned during their periods in command
Added. --Ykraps (talk) 10:01, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"In 1812" more specifically this is from March is it not?
Added. --Ykraps (talk) 09:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest clarifying that this later recommissioning was also at Bermuda (do we know if it was also as a hospital ship?)
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 09:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link broken up
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 09:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

References look good, are reliable sources.
Mahan can be author-linked to Alfred Thayer Mahan and Gregory to Desmond Gregory
Done. --Ykraps (talk) 09:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I'm a fan of referencing with sfn or sfnp, but your style works so no bother
Yes, ashamed to say this old dog can't be bothered to learn new tricks. --Ykraps (talk) 09:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Checked a bit of Marshall/O'Byrne to see if anything was missing. Staines' article notes that in late 1801 Romulus was employed conveying some of the 64th Foot from Alexandria to Malta
Added. --Ykraps (talk) 09:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Burton's article has Romulus armed en flute and at some point taking troops to the Elbe (I assume this to mean she was participating in the Hanover Expedition?)
Added journey to the Elbe but would prefer a source that specifically mentions the Hanover expedition before adding that. --Ykraps (talk) 09:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Difficult - and I should know, I wrote the Hanover Expedition article! I never discovered a total list of the transports used for the expedition. That said, it's no deal breaker to not specifically mention Hanover when even Winfield is vague in his description. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Knight's article fills in the gaps of her 1812/1813 service in the Mediterranean
Added. --Ykraps (talk) 09:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above comments might help with filling out some gaps (I also find Clowes to be useful if you haven't already checked)

@Ykraps: That's all I've got for now, will await your responses. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 23:25, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While looking for a completely unrelated painting I came across and have now uploaded File:HMS Romulus Scuttled in a Storm.jpg, which is Romulus in a storm, assumedly owned by Hope. You might want to use it here. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Added. --Ykraps (talk) 10:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: There are a few issues we need to agree on but apart from that, I think I'm done here. --Ykraps (talk) 10:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC) @Pickersgill-Cunliffe: Ping again because I don't think pasting pings work. --Ykraps (talk) 10:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ykraps: Yep, pings don't work if you edit them into an already existing comment. I got the second one though! I've made some copy edits to the article which we can discuss if you've a problem with any of them, but bar my responses to your queries above I'm happy with your edits. Have a look at the aforementioned responses and we can start to finish up here. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: Thanks for the copyedit. Looks good. I've dealt with the three outstanding issues. Let me know if anything else needs doing. --Ykraps (talk) 18:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ykraps: Happy with your edits, passing this article as satisfying the GA criteria. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:48, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]