Talk:HESA Kowsar

Comparison to Taiwanese plane

Comparisons have been made with the Taiwanese AIDC AT-3... This comparison was done between AT-3 and another Iranian plane i.e. Kowsar-88 training jet, and not this one.

See the green plane in this page http://javanhavafaza.ir/16391/%D8%AC%D8%AA-%D8%A2%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B2%D8%B4%DB%8C-%DA%A9%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1-88/ which is almost a replica of Taiwanese AT-3.

I suggest the comparison to be removed as it is not relevant to this plane. Sarmadys (talk) 18:44, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

I agree, looks like a case of mistaken identity. - Ahunt (talk) 19:30, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Operational history

I think it's fairly obvious that the Iranian government wants the world to think that the first three Kowsar fighters have been delivered. Whether it's true or not, I think the claim deserves a mention in the article, perhaps in the not-yet added Operational history section. Thoughts? - ZLEA _T\^C 14:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Any ref that says that? - Ahunt (talk) 15:53, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

There's that news article the most recent IP referenced. As the Islamic Republic News Agency is controlled by the Iranian government, I think it's safe to say that Iran claims to have three operational Kowsars. - ZLEA _T\^C 16:07, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. But then there is the question about whether this a new Heinkel He 113? - Ahunt (talk) 20:42, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

We wouldn't present the claims as facts until they are verified by a reliable source. I think something along the lines of "In June 2020, the state-run Islamic Republic News Agency claimed that three Kowsar aircraft had been delivered to the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force" would accurately present the situation with the sources available to us. - ZLEA _T\^C 22:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

I think that would be the best course of action. - Ahunt (talk) 22:30, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done - ZLEA _T\^C 23:55, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Design section

Structure of the design section should be like any other fighter jet article on Wikipedia. I have created a text body to be used in the design section with references and pictures. Claims by official sources in Iran and by independent aviation authors, western experts are labelled separately.

NOTE Reference codes used Reference to be added: implies actual citation that should be used in the main article Picture to be added: implies picture can be used for main article. Evidence of statement for editors: implies that this is just a support evidence for the editors or referees of the article

Design

Airframe

As per the official Iranian media [Reference to be added: https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2018/11/03/578896/Iran-air-force-jet-mass-production-Kowsar-Defense-Minister-Amir-Hatami], the entire aircraft is 88% indigenously built (Reference to be added: https://iranpress.com/content/29562/kowsar%C2%A0fighter-with-distinctive-features). From the released visuals, the inside of the frontal part of the airframe including nosecone has been redesigned or possibly elongated to house the larger antenna of new radar and avionics devices (Picture #1 to be added: https://i.ibb.co/qjXtDL4/image.png Caption Cockpit, Radar, Avionics bay of Kowsar Serial 3-7400). This resulted into elimination of one of the twin cannons of a basic F-5E/F airframe (Evidence of statement for editors: https(Evidence of statement for editors:://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/F-5_IMG_6112.jpg). Before Kowsar's assembly line, IAMA has previously showed construction facilities of fuselages, air intakes, wings, vertical stabilizers etc along with locally produced landing gear assembly for F-5E/F derivative Saeqeh-I/II fighter, which could possible may have been utilized in production of Kowsar (Evidence of statement for editors: Time stamp 0.42 sec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOFknx7qRTc&t=43s) (Reference to be added: https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/390105/%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%AF-%D8%B4%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%81%DB%8C-%D8%AC%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%AF%D8%AA%D8%B1%DB%8C%D9%86-%D9%86%D8%B3%D9%84-%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%87-%D8%B5%D8%A7%D8%B9%D9%82%D9%87-%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%86%D9%87-%D8%AC%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%AF-%D8%AA%D8%A7-%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1). According to claims of independent Iranian aviation experts, Kowsar program is a mixture of brand new or from scratch local production of airframes in addition to rebuilding and upgrading rest of thhe airframes (Reference to be added: https://www.key.aero/article/keeping-iranian-air-force-f-5ef-tiger-ii-fleet-service) with newly installed flight control features such as electronically controlled surfaces actuators (115 Volts) and hydraulics, which is part of a customized fly-by-wire (FBW) system. Newly designed system pressure regulators, control valves, fuel solenoid valves and fuel pumps have been installed as well (Reference to be added: https://www.key.aero/article/keeping-iranian-air-force-f-5ef-tiger-ii-fleet-service).

Engines

Kowsar is powered by two locally built OWJ turbojets (Reference to be added: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Aviation_Industries_Organization#Jet_engines) built by Turbine Engineering Manufacturing (TEM) company of Iran Aircraft Industries (IACI). Assembly line of OWJ turbojets was unveiled in 2016 in presence of then President Hassan Rouhani (Reference to be added: http://en.mehrnews.com/photo/119105/Rouhani-pays-visit-to-AIO-of-Defense-Ministry) (Evidence of statement for editors:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c4Fi1kOPaE) (Picture #2 to be added: https://i.ibb.co/2gNy5Xw/image.png Caption OWJ Turbojet). According to western experts, OWJ turbojets are reverse engineered, domestically produced versions of General Electric J85-GE-21A which has a dry thrust of 3500 lbf and 5000 lbf with afterburner [Reference to be added: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/iran-flaunts-new-missile-and-jet-engine-technology each].

Cockpit

In the twin seater version of Kowsar, the cockpit houses two IAMI Sarir ejection seats (Picture #3 to be added: https://i.ibb.co/myVQ1yY/image.png Caption IAMI Sarir Ejection seats presented at Kowsar assembly line) for the pilot and the rear weapons expert in tandem configuration. Sarir ejection seats have previously been tested by IAMI [Evidence of Statement: https://i.ibb.co/7yKBJDK/image.png on] a Tu-154M test bed called "Armita" (Reference to be added: https://web.archive.org/web/20150726074957/http://www.hesa.ir/Product/Details/25?pm=60) (Reference to be added:https://theaviationist.com/2012/08/21/iran-new-fighter/). Some analysts have pointed that Sarir seats are domestically produced reverse engineered versions of Zvezda K-36D which Iranian technicians have access to through IRIAF possession of MIG-29 fighters. Kowsar has a glass cockpit which includes local HUD, three multifuncional displays (MFDS) for both pilots (Picture #1 added above already covers this : https://i.ibb.co/qjXtDL4/image.png). According to independent report, the data bus communication architecture is MIL-STD-1553 (Reference to be added:https://www.key.aero/article/keeping-iranian-air-force-f-5ef-tiger-ii-fleet-service)

Avionics

Kowsar features a multimode pulse doppler X band fire control radar called Bayyenat-II (Reference to be added: https://www.key.aero/article/keeping-iranian-air-force-f-5ef-tiger-ii-fleet-service). It features flat array steerable antenna with freedom of movement in two directions. Steerable antenna enables focused beaming on a target. The official tracking range is reported as 93 km in look-up mode which can enable beyond visual range (BVR) engagement option. The radar can track and display eight while engages two targets simultaneously(Reference to be added: https://iswnews.com/33135/%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%B4-%D9%86%D8%B8%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%87-%DA%A9%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D8%B5%D8%A7%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%B1/). Visually, by the shape of the antenna, no of arrays, T/R elements, and the design of processing units, the radar shown on Kowsar seems to be a domestically produced replica of Grifo-346 (Evidence of statement: https://i.ibb.co/6mkjjHG/Bayyenat-II-and-Leonardo-Grifo.jpg) by Leonardo S.p.A.(Italy), which has Look-down-shoot-down, ECCM and SAR capabilities (Reference to be added: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grifo_radar#Grifo-346). (Reference to be added: https://electronics.leonardo.com/documents/16277707/18373928/GRIFO+M346+%28mm07796%29+HQ.pdf?t=1633693852504).

For navigation and communication, the plane uses mobile map generator, an inertial navigation system (INS/GPS), tactical air navigation system (TACAN), and U/VHF radios. Avionics suite also features identification of friend or foe (IFF) (Reference to be added: https://www.key.aero/article/keeping-iranian-air-force-f-5ef-tiger-ii-fleet-service). According to head of Iran Aviation Industries Organization (IAIO) Lieutenant Brigadier General Afshin Khajeh Fard, Kowsar features datalink with network of other fighter aircrafts and unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) for exchange of target information (Reference to be added: https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1267568/%D8%B4%D8%A8%DA%A9%D9%87-%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%B2%DB%8C-%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%AA%D9%82%DB%8C%D9%85-%D8%A8%D8%A7-%D9%BE%D9%87%D9%BE%D8%A7%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%AA%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%AC%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%84%DB%8C%D8%AA-%D8%AC%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%AF-%DA%A9%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1).

Avionics suite comprise of the following devices (Picture # 4 to be added: https://i.ibb.co/2FGBK4K/Avionics-suite.jpg Caption Avionics related devices shown during the unveiling ceremony): (AMC) Avionic mission computer, (WMC) Weapons management computer, Ballistic computer, (ADC) Air data computer, (ECI) Digital engine combined data instrument, (LPI) Radar altimeter (low-probability), (FDR) Digital flight data recorder, (DMG) Digital map generator, (SMP) Store management processor, and (CVR) Cabin voice recorder systems. For self defence Kowsar is equipped with a system of radar warning receivers (RWR) and chaff/flare dispensers (Reference to be added: https://www.key.aero/article/keeping-iranian-air-force-f-5ef-tiger-ii-fleet-service). For electronic-warfare role, Kowsar, like other IRIAF fighters such as F-4E, F-5E/F, and UCAVs like Kaman-22 may possibly also carry stand off electronic counter measure ECM/Jamming pods in IRIAF use (Evidence of Statement: https://21stcenturyasianarmsrace.com/2021/04/09/iranian-drone-manufacturing-is-unstoppable/) (Evidence of Statement: https://www.key.aero/article/iranian-air-exercise such as X-band Shahin ECM Pod (Reference to be added: https://www.mehrnews.com/news/4528383/%D8%AC%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%AF%D8%AA%D8%B1%DB%8C%D9%86-%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AD-%D9%BE%D9%87%D9%BE%D8%A7%D8%AF%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C-%D8%A8%D8%A7-%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%85-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B4%DA%A9-%D8%A7%D8%AE%DA%AF%D8%B1-%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%86%D9%85%D8%A7%DB%8C%DB%8C-%D8%B4%D8%AF)

Weapons system

Weapons system of Kowsar is controlled by weapons management computer (WMC), shown during the unveiling. Armaments include a single M39 20 mm revolver cannon which is different from twin cannon configuration in usual F-5E/F. There are total seven hardpoints, two on wingtips, four under-wing, and one under-fuselage. For aerial engagement, Kowsar can carry four Fatter air-to-air missiles (Reference to be added: https://iswnews.com/33135/%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%B4-%D9%86%D8%B8%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%87-%DA%A9%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D8%B5%D8%A7%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%B1/). Fatter is an all aspect, thermal IR seeking missile with AIM-9J/P replicated body, bearing a range of 40 km (Reference to be added:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatter). Because of long range of its radar (93 km), Kowsar can possibly integrate beyond visual range (BVR) missiles as well although it has not been demonstrated to have such a weapon yet. For air-to-ground attack, Kowsar uses a ballistic computer for highly accurate ground attack with twelve 250 kg (550 lbs) bombs or five 450 kg (1000 lbs) bombs or two 900 kg (2000 lbs) bombs (Reference to be added: https://iswnews.com/33135/%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%B4-%D9%86%D8%B8%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C-%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%87-%DA%A9%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1-%D8%AA%D8%B5%D8%A7%D9%88%DB%8C%D8%B1/). Iranian media has reported, planned use of INS/Satellite guided, glide precision guided munitions (PGM) or standoff weapon (SOW) with a range of 100 KM on Kowsar, as seen during President Embrahim Raisi's visit to the Kowsar assembly line (Evidence of statement for editors: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVgld7aUcAAkL2Z?format=jpg&name=900x900)(https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/1388794/%DA%AF%D8%A7%D9%85-%D8%A8%D8%B2%D8%B1%DA%AF-%D8%B5%D9%86%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B9-%D8%AF%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B9%DB%8C-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D9%85%D8%AF%D8%B1%D9%86-%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%B2%DB%8C-%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%87-%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C-%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%82%D9%82-%D8%B4%D8%AF). Kowsar can also carry two pods of 70 mm hydra rockets. Like F-5E/F, for ferry flight Kowsar can carry maximum three external fuel tanks. RicoF22 (talk) 18:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this here. Before we get into the text and refs, I wanted to ask you about the photos. The ones you have linked to above are all on other websites. Unless these are on either en.wikipedia or Wiki Commons we can't put them in the article. For uploading to Commons only freely-licensed images can be used. Are any of them already there or even eligible? If so we can put them in the drafts here to see how it looks and if not we can just start by tossing those as not usable. - Ahunt (talk) 20:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello.

None of them are licensed images. The entire screenshots of assembly line and devices came from iribnews.ir. Below are their origin:

Picture #1 to be added: https://i.ibb.co/qjXtDL4/image.png Caption Cockpit, Radar, Avionics bay of Kowsar Serial 3-7400

Origin: My own created collage of 6 pics, they are all from unveiling video from iribnews.ir (state media of Iran).

"https://www.iribnews.ir/fa/news/2268951/%D8%BA%D8%B1%D8%B4-%DA%A9%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1-%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%B5%D9%84-%D8%A7%D8%B7%D9%85%DB%8C%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D8%B2-%D8%AA%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%85%D9%86%D8%AF%DB%8C-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%88-%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C".

https://jangaavaran.ir/%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%87-%DA%A9%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1/

Picture #2 to be added: https://i.ibb.co/2gNy5Xw/image.png Caption OWJ Turbojet

Picture #3 to be added: https://i.ibb.co/myVQ1yY/image.png Caption IAMI Sarir Ejection seats presented at Kowsar assembly line

Origin: Screenshot (Time-stamp 0:22 sec) taken from https://www.unews.com.lb/en/archives/17/06/2022/33108/

Picture #4 to be added: https://i.ibb.co/2FGBK4K/Avionics-suite.jpg Caption Avionics related devices shown during the unveiling ceremony

Origin: https://jangaavaran.ir/%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%87-%DA%A9%D9%88%D8%AB%D8%B1/ RicoF22 (talk) 19:53, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining the images' origins. I am not really clear what you meant when you wrote None of them are licensed images. Regarding ones that came from https://www.iribnews.ir, that website states:تمامی حقوق مادی و معنوی این وب سایت متعلق به خبرگزاری صدا و سیما می باشد و استفاده غیر قانونی از آن پیگرد قانونی دارد which translates as. All the material and intellectual rights of this website belong to Sada and Sima news agency and its illegal use is prosecuted, so these cannot we upload to Wiki Commons nor used on Wikipedia. In fact your uploading them to https://i.ibb.co seems to violate the copyrights as well. As far as you other sources go https://jangaavaran.ir says in English © Copyright 2022, All Rights Reserved and https://www.unews.com.lb/en/ has no copyright information at all, which be default under US copyright law means it is considered "all rights reserved". So we cannot use any of those images. - Ahunt (talk) 20:23, 12 October 2022 (UTC)