Talk:Greystanes, New South Wales

History Section

"It was from this land that William Lawson, Gregory Blaxland and William Charles Wentworth set out on their successful crossing of the Blue Mountains in 1813 and discovered the Bathurst Plains. The Lawson family crypt still exists today at St Bartholomew's Church, Prospect.[1]"

I propose to delete the first of these sentences as it is incorrect and second because it is not relevant. It was from William Lawson's home Veteran Hall, which is on the Western lower slopes of Prospect Hill (not in Greystanes suburb), that the expedition set out. There is persistent confusion between Veteran Hall and Grey Stanes, the latter being, as stated, the home of William Lawson's son Nelson Lawson. Building of Grey Stanes did not start until 1836. The Lawson crypt is nbot relevant to the Greystanes article.

If there is no comment I will make the deletion. Spathaky (talk) 06:45, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

I have now found that the expedition's departure was from Blaxland's farm at Eastern Creek, though Lawson would have first left from his home Veteran Hall. Anyway this doesn't alter the fact that the article was incorrect and, as there has been no comment for a week, I have deleted as I said I would. Spathaky (talk) 11:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Notable residents Section

LibStar made numerous deletion to my work on notable residents. I have since restored this information, as this was my work which I spent weeks researching in the local community, especially at local schools and the Greystanes library. Even if a resident does not have a Wikipedia page, it doesn't mean that they are not Notable to this commmunity. Frank Cefai, was the most notable of them all, for example. Also, the other reasons provided by LibStar, are incorrect - they include "article doesn't mention this suburb - and? maybe the Wikipedia article is wrong?, grew up in another suburb, played for a club in greystanes only, etc.

If LibStar actually took the time, even to research online, each of the people removed - he/she would find articles about these people and they actually LIVED in Greystanes. Each of these people have lived and been residents of Greystanes at some part of their lives. And the clubs in which they played for, was because they needed to be residents of Greystanes, in order to play or participate. You cannot attend Little Athletics, or play for Greystanes Rugby or Soccer clubs, if you do not live in Greystanes. For example, a comment made on Dani Stevens saying that she wasn't from Greystanes - here is an article where is states that her family moved to Greystanes - https://www.athletics.com.au/news/dani-stevens-from-little-athletics-to-the-olympics/. Further to that, she went to primary school in Greystanes and it was her school teacher, ny neighbour, who told me to add her.

The deletion of this content, after thorough research is actually vandalism of my work. Do not touch it.

Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 12:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

You don't WP:OWN this article. Any person can be removed under WP:BURDEN. LibStar (talk) 22:17, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I will remove entries that do not refer to the suburb or no reference supplied that they lived in the suburb. You claim to have evidence for each person, please show that. LibStar (talk) 22:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

If you have done the research then include the citation in the article. Accusing me of vandalism is far fetched, I have made over 96,000 edits over 17 years on Wikipedia. No one has accused me of vandalism before. LibStar (talk) 01:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Annamaria.dmrt your comments are verging on personal attacks please stop I too have edited here for many years and the burden is on YOU to provide a source for notable residents. I have removed some unsourced "notables" where there articles don't mention the place either. Theroadislong (talk) 10:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Annamaria.dmrt And now you are edit warring to re-add unsourced content, please STOP you need to add sources to support your additions. Theroadislong (talk) 10:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

no problem, i will add sources to them. Instead of deleting, why don't you add "citation needed" though? Like for the other parts of the content? Why do i need to compare versions in order to see what's needed... stop deleting, add "citation needed" and I will sort it out. That's the whole point here.

Also, I am doing my best on citation, but if you guys help on the formatting, it would be nice. Any uncited text, I will delete.

Thanks for your time and patience, I understand it's no personal attack Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 11:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I have added a few sources as examples, if you could add more that would be great and be advised that any editor can remove unsourced content. Theroadislong (talk) 11:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

thanks for that. You have still deleted some people like Penulwuy (the most famous resident of Greystanes first title land's native inhabitants), Lawrence DImech, Frank Cefai - the most renown person in the community (articles are about him everywhere on google).

Also, lastly and probably quite important... how do people make reference to information, without having anything to cite or refer to? for example. If I was to interview an old resident, and they give me information on something historical but there is no reference online, does mean that this just goes done as missing in history? How can I cite this within Wiki's terms to make it noteworthy and remain? Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 13:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

it would be great to actually have an created on Frank Cefai, cause he was very important in the development of many suburbs across western sydney. He has also been nominated for an OAM medal (posthumous). Not sure if I could submit the article to any of you guys directly for help on it if I was to find the time to do it? Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 13:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

for example. Sanford Wheeler and Brad McGee, I still know where there parents live in their family homes.

How can I demonstrate it? Considering there are no references online. Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 13:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

You simply cannot, ALL sources need to be published, Wikipedia has no interest in the facts as such, only on what reliable sources have reported on a topic. See reliable sources. Theroadislong (talk) 14:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

ok understood. I will get to it all then. Thank you Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 11:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I removed Ashley Klein because the added source from Parramatta refs does not say he actually lived in the suburb and it is irrelevant that his family which is not notable still live there. Please use actual proper sources which confirm a person actually lived there, otherwise you are trying to exaggerate Greystanes. Also please edit a wider variety of articles to get a better idea of how Wikipedia works. This was mentioned in the ANI. LibStar (talk) 12:19, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

fair enough. I can't get anything else for him, and it's a shame cause he does live there in Greystanes. Alot of the other guys though, you deleted four, and I also removed a few. They only played at Greystanes, but there was no mention of them living there. Ellie Carpenter still lives here, but nothing can prove that.

I don't really understand what the issue was with the referencing on Nathan Cayless' citation and for Tim Faulkner neither, and why @Scope creep removed them? They both say that these guys live in Greystanes. And they were good sources too. Just to understand. Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 13:55, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Annamaria.dmrt: They are not good sources, that is the core of it. There is a noticeboard at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard made up of folk who examine the reliability and veracity of references and decides whether they are good or bad. When they !vote on it and reach consensus on a particular source, that information goes into this script that shows in different colours whether the reference is good or bad, whether the reference could be replaced by something better and so on. There is many hundreds of news outlet across the world that for various reasons don't deal in pure facts. Many of them deal in misinformtion, some are partisan, some are malicious, other outright political There is graph that calculates how reliables these outlets aere. At the top currently is the AP News, Reuters, others like the Guardian, the LA Times, the Baltimore Sun, the Independent, The Japan News are at the top. At the bottom are sites like GB news and Breitbart and so on. It worth becoming aware of this type of information and getting the script. The help desk will help you. The references I removed were complete junk. scope_creep^Talk 14:37, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Scope creep, I have gone through the vote on the noticeboard at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. And in doing so I have come to conclusion that your changes should be undone, or at least, manually readded with one modification. There a few reasons, for this:

1. The whole vote, is not actually in regards to the The Daily Telegraph (Sydney), but instead, to the British The Daily Telegraph.
2. Apart from point 1 anyway, you guys 'need' to understand the complexity of referencing in many of Australia's town, as the regional newspapers have been bought out by Sydney's Daily Telegraph, or other large media outlets. So, in this case, the references you have removed, are not complete junk at all. They are from the Parramatta Advertiser, which is served under the Sydney Daily Telegraph umbrella. If you remove this is a citation, it will be very complicated to cite many things, because the Parramatta Advertiser is the only active news outlet now in the area. Already, we cannot add facts without online sources. Which means, the local councils or the Parramatta Advertiser are all that kind we have. The Parramatta Sun is long gone. And many suburbs fall under the Parramatta adversiter realm. Which is actually separate to Sydney Daily telegraph anyway. If I can't use the Parramatta Advertiser, I will have to give up even attempting to edit other suburbs. But again, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, was talking about the British version not the Sydney.
3. My proposal here though is to do two things: - I will manually add back the references you removed, but I will change the website, to the Parramatta Advertiser. Because, your feedback here, actually has made me realise, that next to the authors name, on the actual article, it says anyway "Parramatta Advertiser". Which means, the citations are even more accurate and associated to the Local news and not, state/city news. - I will add an additional reference, so if you feel the need to remove the citation again, at least I have another to fall back on. However, I repeat, removing the Parramatta Advertiser, cut's the potential citations down alot. Which means, we really risk having facts removed from Wikipedia that are real facts.

I just want ot additionally add - there were some major hiccups here, but I think as a result, we've really cemented down the facts in this article. We removed many notable people, some of whom were valid, but I can't find any further resources to cite. I will also add Frank Cefai and Lawrence Dimech, who were very notable in the community. And made them as a red link, as per @Adam Black's advice on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. I will cite it too. If you don't like it, then remove it. I will also like to work on creating an article in the coming months for Frank Cefai especially.

I hope you guys appreciate that I have spent hours trying to get this one suburb to the level it needs. Once it's done, I am happy to move on to others. Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 12:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

sorry @Scope creep, a final note, to confirm that these citations by The Daily Telegraph (Sydney) are not considered "Option 4: Deprecated". Is because only one of my citations were considered that, and that was the one by The Daily Mail, which has since been replaced. For that citation, I received a notice saying "An automated filter has detected that you are adding a link to a deprecated source, considered generally unreliable.... .... ... " But for the The Daily Telegraph (Sydney), no notice was received.

I tested this out, by adding a citation using The Daily Telegraph (British). And in fact, the same notice as The Daily Mail was received. Upon that notification, I did not hit publish and cancelled - it was just to test the warning. Which leads me to believe that you have confused the two between each other. Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 12:34, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Scope creep ah sh*t! I just realised the URL in these citations was www.dailytelegraph.com and not www.dailytelegraph.com.au Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 12:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

You have again removed the citations, without any explanation above. Can you please provide more information after reading my information above?

Because The Daily Telegraph, and that being particularly The Parramatta Advertiser, the local paper since forever in this area - is not associated to the UK Daily Telegraph. And I cannot find anything on the noticeboard you have provided.

You also removed two of my citations that were not The Daily Telegraph related, for the same people.

Can you provide some more information on this, because it makes no sense. Thanks.

@Scope creep Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 16:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Annamaria.dmrt: First, the web property is for the name of the website, not for the website url. I've changed that cite web -> cite news since its a newspaper your citing. Its needs the first and last names added. More accurate. Those two refs you put in weren't reliable. Have a read of WP:RS it may help. Its nothing to do with the daily telegraph in the uk. Its currently not unreliable. I tested it. I know it take a bit of time to get an handle on referencing. It does take a bit of time. I suspect the paper has put itself in position, where the articles it writes are not considered reliable. Its as much as I know. I spend half my time on Wikipedia removing these dodgy references. Hope that helps. scope_creep^Talk 16:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

@Scope creep after having a read through Template:Cite web, it says:

Before 2014, editors had to decide whether to use {{cite web}} or {{[[Template:Cite news|cite news]]<nowiki>}} based on their features. In 2014, most of the differences between the two templates were eliminated. Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 17:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

therefore, it makes no difference really.

Also, your last change broke the referencing code. You were missing a }

I have restored your changes, also because you are not being consistent. You made one "News" and the other "Web" for the same people.

You're referencing is a bit sloppy. And you are deleting my notable citations too. Annamaria.dmrt (talk) 18:06, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

This article is on my list to take a look at and copy-edit. I will take a proper look at this article in the coming days (I've been very busy with off-Wiki commitments and haven't had the time to contribute).

@Scope creep I would agree that The Daily Telegraph (Sydney) does not appear to have been deemed unreliable, and in fact even if you were referring to The Daily Telegraph then WP:Perennial sources lists it as "generally reliable".

@Annamaria.dmrt although they mostly share parameters there do remain some differences between cite news and cite web. If you are citing an online newspaper or magazine, cite news should generally be used. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 00:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

@Adam Black: I'm not referring to the Daily Telegraph. I've not mentioned it once here. Its a newspapers two continents away and has nothing to do with this conversation. The The Daily Telegraph (Sydney) is considered generally unreliable. [1] WP:RSN is a final arbiter on what sources to use on Wikipedia not the perennial list. They are often mismatched. Do not add them back. Find better sources, or leave the information out. scope_creep^Talk 07:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Two !votes does not make a consensus, but I'll agree that The Daily Telegraph does not appear to be entirely reliable. It has not, however, been deprecated.

@Annamaria.dmrt if you can find more reliable sources, that would be for the best. I don't see any reason why you can't use The Parramatta Advertiser, though, provided they are indeed editorially distinct from The Daily Telegraph. Note that in the cite news template, The Parramatta Advertiser would be the newspaper, News Corp would be the publisher and you'd set via=[[The Daily Telegraph (Sydney)|The Daily Telegraph]]. You should not set The Parramatta Advertiser as the publisher. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 14:36, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

@Adam Black: I've taken this off my watchlist. Please don't ping on here again as I will ignore it. scope_creep^Talk 07:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Last reference problem

I tried to fix these references which were in some mess. Page numbers are required when your posting a document. Without the page number it is useless. I can't fix that reference 4 since there is multiple versions of it. Its seems to be the same but not sure. Its not wise to use urls for reference tags. The website property for a each cite web should contain the website name, not a url. scope_creep^Talk 10:01, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

It is really sloppy referencing to including a ref for page 5 and include the same reference for page 31, which is not correct. It will need fixed. scope_creep^Talk 10:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I haven't confused anything. The references you put are non-rs as well. I've removed. Don't put them back in. scope_creep^Talk 13:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § The Parramatta Advertiser

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § The Parramatta Advertiser. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 18:41, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussions at WP:RSN[2] and WP:ANI[3] found no evidence that the Parramatta Advertiser was unreliable. It should likely be treated the same as any local paper. If you are using a source highlighting script, links to it may be flagged because its articles are hosted online by an Australian tabloid. Courtesy ping to Annamaria.dmrt who introduced the source. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)