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Corporal punishment

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Warning these page is under tentative of censorship by Greenbrier High School or associated to hide the way corporal punishments are carried on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.84.229.77 (talk) 17:28, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The section which was removed had no WP:reliable source. --David Biddulph (talk) 19:11, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is a version war on this page

A quick google search shows that the only source is coming from the mother of the child. It is both too recent and unreliable to place on this wiki page. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 19:49, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are now multiple reliable news sources on this, attributing their info to the students as well as to a parent and a school official. The removed para needs a rewrite, but should be restored. I don't have time tonight. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 04:46, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@DESiegel: I'll do it and I'll post it here to make sure it is neutral enough.HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 04:49, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

proposal

Greenbrier High School applies the use of corporal punishment, in the form of light swats, to their students as a form of punishment. However, all punishments must have parents consent before it can be administered. After the 2018 United States gun violence protests, three students alleged they were administered corporal punishments, which were approved by their parents, for participating in the protests. School officials, however, say they were not punished for the protests but rather for skipping class.[1]

References

  1. ^ Christina Zdanowicz; Ralph Ellis (March 17, 2018). "Arkansas student says he was paddled for gun control walkout". cnn.com. Retrieved March 19, 2018.

Side notes: In the article, it says: "Greer's mother, Jerusalem Greer, praised her son for taking a stand. His father signed papers to allow the punishment to be administered, the student said." = consent

More refs are required but I can't find a lot that fall under WP:RS. Trying to find more but I think CNN is the most reliable so far. I also think the fact that corporal punishment is legal in Arkansas should be mentioned somewhere bc a casual reader who isn't from the States (like me) might not know that and it helps make this sentence more neutral. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 05:05, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As occasional reader from outside US I think is also important to highlight that USA is the only developed western world country where corporal punishments exist in school. I don't think that the "swat" are always "light" as the dean of students of Greenbrier High school affirmed, but due that this has been reported by one of the student I would use some cautions but I would certainly skip the adjective "light". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States this page highlight that "student with physical and mental disabilities are at greater risk". Finally I believe a warning should be put for the parents on the fact that in Greenbrier High School corporal punishments are extended to boys and girls way into puberty, which could be assimilated to sexual assault. The parents need to know that they can opt-out from corporal punishments. Fiorgioba (talk) 14:26, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiorgioba: Okay so since I don't want to put too much weight (see WP:UNDUE and WP:BALANCE) on this I agree with the "light" part and the legal part but I don't think saying "USA is the only developed western world country where corporal punishments exist in school" is the best way to word it. There should be a way to just squeeze it in and mention that it is legal in Arkansas (since not all States allow it). Also, I think adding that this can lead to being susceptible to sexual assault in the future, while true, might be undue weight to this section. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 17:25, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe "Greenbrier High School applies the use of corporal punishment, in the form of swats, to their students as a form of punishment. Corporal punishment in public schools is a legal form of punishment in Arkansas (source). However, all punishments must have parental consent before it can be administered. After the 2018 United States gun violence protests, three students alleged they were administered corporal punishments, which were approved by their parents, for participating in the protests. School officials, however, say they were not punished for the protests but rather for skipping class.(source)"
I removed "light", added "Corporal punishment in public schools is a legal form of punishment in Arkansas (source)" and changed parents to parental consent. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 17:28, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In your formulation you say "three students alleged they were administered corporal punishments" this has been confirmed also by the school so, we are not in the domain of allegations. I would add "Corporal punishments in school are legal in Arkansas and other 20 US states, this is a unique situation compared to all other developed countries". This because US and foreign audience need to know that even if legal, corporal punishments are considered archaic in all other western countries. Finally there are certainly reliable sources that establish a clear link between corporal punishments to sexual assault, especially when administered to already mature teen. This was one of the main arguments that brought US supreme court to outlaw corporal punishments for inmates in 1975. Fiorgioba (talk) 19:24, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiorgioba: Oh I see, maybe I need to reword it. If you read the full sentence it says "three students alleged they were administered corporal punishments, which were approved by their parents, for participating in the protests.'" This alleged was meant "they alleged they were swatted for going to a protest". The school says they were swatted for missing class, meaning even the boys were at the local mall they would've been swatted. If that isn't clear then that needs to be re-worded.
Now, per the sexual assault statement: The problem isn't the lack of reliable sources, the problem is that this is an article about a school and this would be a lot of weight to say that now these boys are susceptible to being sexually assaulted per (what they say) was two swats. Basically what this would mean is that now this school made these boys vulnerable to being sexually assaulted, when we don't even know if that'll happen to them in the future. Now, if these boys are sexually assaulted in the future then the sentence can be reworded. If someone else wants to weigh in and give their opinion that would be great since I believe that is much too weight for this article. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 19:32, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I also don't know if "Corporal punishments in school are legal in Arkansas and other 20 US states, this is a unique situation compared to all other developed countries" is an Impartial tone (due to the word "developed countries"; seems to me it implies something is wrong with the US). In my opinion, saying something like "Corporal punishment in public schools is a legal form of punishment in Arkansas (source)" seems to be impartial. It doesn't imply anything about the country just states a fact. In Canada, it is legal by the parents but I just feel "developed" implies the US is less developed for allowing this to happen. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 20:20, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I indeed misunderstood, but it seems to me that you want to avoid the fact that corporal punishment in school is unique to some US state among the other main socially developed country, my idea was to clearly state that even if legal, corporal punishments at school are illegal in the rest of the American continent, In Europe, Israel, Australia and New Zealand. Several African countries are progressively outlawing it. For what is the sexual assault, it's not that these boys are "vulnerable to be sexually assaulted", during the two swats the ass is struck and THAT at 17 year old is per se a sexual assault. I don't know for example if the swat are given on bare buttock or students are allowed to keep underwear. I understand that we come from two different cultures. I am Italian and I leave in Belgium, here a child beaten at school is so far from our culture that we cannot really understand how parents could leave so sensitive punishment to strangers with no emotional attachment to their son. I found all this appalling. Please reinstate the chapter on corporal punishments in this page, readers need at least to know what their children (legally) risk. Fiorgioba (talk) 21:13, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiorgioba: You are right, I do want to avoid comparing the US to other Western countries since this is supposed to be about a school and this doesn't seem to be a unique case. It seems to be as if all public schools legally have the ability to do this, this one just happened to get media attention. But, let's see if we can find a neutral way to word that. I just want to mention it isn't my sole power to reinstate this on the page. The only reason it was removed was so that it could be worked on in a neutral manner (if you look at the edit history on this page you can see some editors were getting heated). If there is a source saying that this sparked a debate about corporal punishment in schools that could work but I'm just worried that this will overshadow the rest of the school's accomplishments and activities etc.HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 21:34, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How does this sound: "Corporal punishment in public schools is a legal form of punishment in Arkansas (source), which is one of 22 States that still allow this type of punishment to happen." I just want to leave out whole world application since it seems like all this attention is going onto this one school but sources [1] say that "41% of Arkansas students attend a school that allows paddling." Discusions about School corporal punishment is discussed in more detail on botht the Arkansas wiki page and the School corporal punishment page. We can also put a "see also" template atop this section to guide readers who want more detail to the right page (School corporal punishment). HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 22:07, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I think that a link to the page School corporal punishment it's good, in there there is sentence that says: An estimated 1 to 2 percent of physically punished students in the United States are seriously injured, to the point of needing medical attention. According to the AAP and the Society for Adolescent Medicine, these injuries have included bruises, abrasions, broken bones, whiplash injury, muscle damage, brain injury, and even death. Other reported injuries to students include "sciatic nerve damage"[6] "extensive hematomas", and "life-threatening fat hemorrhage". Which I think make my point and confirmed somehow that at least some corporal punishments are given on a naked buttock which confirms the allegations of sexual harassment, just simply for the fact that the students are obliged to expose their private parts. I hope that the bad publicity will progressively bring all district to remove that practice not only in Arkansas, legal doesn't mean acceptable, slavery and segregation were legal, even torture in the past was legal, that doesn't make those things acceptable. Happy to live on this side of the ocean.Fiorgioba (talk) 22:47, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'm going to leave this here for a few hours just to see if other ediors have any ideas or objections. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 23:14, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly oppose including anything about this at this time, per NOTNEWS. To think this means anything shows a major misunderstanding of the US media. Someone ran a story on this, and other media outlets reacted to that. We do not need to be in a hurry to include anything. Quite unlike the media, we have no concerns about ratings and do not need to play follow the leader. My experience with these kinds of stories tells me no one will still be talking about this in two weeks, in which case neither should we.
Additionally, I oppose this on WEIGHT and RECENT. This school is at least 30 years old (and exactly how old is a much more significant fact to include than this non story). There is no other history other than this. This isn't a controversy, it's a fart in church. There are two reasons this is getting coverage today. One, it's coincidentally associated with all the noise about school shootings. Two, other than the bombings in Texas, the 24/7, if it bleeds it leads, talking heads haven't much else to talk about.
I was invited to this discussion by HickoryOughtShirt?4, whom I believe was not trying to violate CANVAS, but asking me to opine due to my role as coordinator of WP:WPSCH. Still, for fairness and transparency, I'll be posting neutral notification at WT:WPSCH and whatever geographic projects are covering this article.
Last, even if I cannot gain consensus for omission (and I'm in no way conceding that), I'd oppose inclusion of any names per school article guidelines. It's a privacy concern, and names add nothing to understanding the facts. John from Idegon (talk) 00:33, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notification posted at WT:ARK and WT:WPSCH John from Idegon (talk) 01:29, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that a dedicated section to this aspect it's not required I would opt however for a message informing the parents to carefully read the school regulations because the school often count on silence=consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.64.168.10 (talk) 19:53, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree because that is not what Wikipedia or this Wiki page is for. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 19:55, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that you disagree and I think that parents should be informed about some school regulations, anyway this school has a reputation totally f****d-up this page isn't going to change anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.64.168.14 (talk) 21:14, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:NOT. I was saying "I disagree" to be polite but it is against Wiki policy. This is not an information page for parents, that's what brochures and pamphlets are for. As well, as noted above, a little less than 50% of students in this State go to schools where this is allowed so it is not fair to just list in on this Wiki page (per WP:BURDEN and WP:UNDUE). HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 21:19, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Arkansas has the highest rate of corporal punishments after Mississipi and this school has the highest rate of corporal punishments in Arkansas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.64.168.14 (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that is unsourced so that will need a reliable source and seems better suited for Corporal punishment in schools rather than this page. Also, still doesn't negate the fact that this isn't an information page for parents. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 21:43, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Dear talk This information is indeed contained into Corporal punishment in schools and in the official Department of Education statistics (just google). Believe me talk they won't let you post anything against this school, they are probably working for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fiorgioba (talk • contribs) 13:17, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]


So in the end you want to censor this story John from Idegon it's not uncommon, you want to protect the reputation of the school and maybe also the use of corporal punishments in it. As I said I'm an occasional reader, in any moment anyone propose to put any names, even if the name of all people involved are already in the news, which I hope is not going to disappear in two weeks. However but I'm scandalized that you consider this a NOTNEWS and that you do not consider corporal something that affect the reputation of this school, for which the readers should be informed. I just hope that this story is going to open a wide debate on use of corporal punishments in school. From what is concerning this school, I'm sure that in the future they will use more caution on use of corporal punishments, which I still consider an abuse. Fiorgioba (talk) 05:40, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

According to this article: “My kid and two other students walked out of their rural, very conservative, public school for 17 minutes today,” Greer wrote on Twitter. “They were given two punishment options. They chose corporal punishment. This generation is not playing around.”. I do not know what the other option was, but they did chose the corporal punishment themselves = consent. The Banner talk 12:47, 25 March 2018 (UTC) Just a stranger passing by[reply]

Yea The Banner talk because is logic that a public school pays an official of the school with the task of physically punish the students.... plus the alternative was two days of suspension, in your final year...able to jeopardize the access to the college. If someone harm one of my kids, I'll be in jail and in the school there would be an open position. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.187.49.13 (talk) 17:18, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the paddler Brett Meek and the witness Bryan Swimn they hadn't any idea on how this story could damage this school previously with excellent evaluations. Corporal punishments are something that neither students or parents or the schools want to talk about. It's embarrassing with a not so hidden sexual connotation when almost adult teens are involved. I'm a student's parent (already graduate) who opted out physical correction for my boy, the school was quite unwilling to follow my request. Sorry for the anonymous message but I know students who are still over there and the school has zero flexibility on freedom of speech. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.84.229.75 (talk) 17:34, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comment, however, this page isn't meant as a forum for personal opinions but to discuss how to constructively edit this page. Per the last two comments, this seems to be getting off topic. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 17:45, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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