Talk:Great Trail

A fact from Great Trail appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 30 December 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Great Trail created by Native Americans connected the Great Lakes region of Canada to New England and the mid-Atlantic and laid the foundation for modern highways?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/December.

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Map needed

It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality.
Wikipedians in the United States may be able to help!

Canada

Great article! Is there an equivalent in Canada? D enni ^talk 02:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks much for saying that. As the article mentions, the Great Trail extends into Canada. I think the reason the Great Trail generally refers to the trail network between the Great Lakes, New England and the mid-Atlantic is that this area was well-populated by Native Americans and these trails were needed to get through the woodlands on foot quickly and without getting lost. In Newfoundland and Labrador, as in the Pacific Northwest, settlement was concentrated in coastal areas and it was easiest to get around by boat. The Great Plains and the Canadian Prairies were more sparsely populated and horses were probably the main way to get around. HouseOfScandal 04:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Diagram

This article needs a diagram of the trails... -Ravedave ^{(Adopt a State)} 21:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While a diagram showing the main arteries of the Great Trail could be (and probably has been in the past) created, its much easier and much less useful to say what an article "needs" than to provide it. HouseOfScandal 04:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am only passingly interested in this article so why would I create an image for it? I have articles I am fully interested in I can work on. I can however as a casual reader suggest what could be done to make the article better. WP:PR and WP:FAC are both based on the idea that people can provide input on how to improve an article without doing the work themselves. -Ravedave ^{(Adopt a State)} 05:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would have been more polite and more accurate to say this article "could use" or "would benefit" from a diagram, hence my comment. I'm surprised that the gentle, half-kidding reproach contained therein would incite your response. Really, if I was too stupid to understand such obvious points as people can provide info without making edits and people are interested in some articles more than others, would citation of Wikipedia guidelines be likely to illuminate my dim wits? HouseOfScandal 04:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Boundaries

Hello. As an interested reader, my first reaction to "Some sources describe the Great Trail as beginning at one point or another." was: where? In the interest of completeness (or even NPOV), I think it's a good idea to include the most common examples. If it's a really marginal issue, then I would take the sentence out because it seems to leave a noteworthy point unexplained. Just a friendly suggestion. -- bcasterline • talk 06:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your message. I wasn't more specific in regards to these supposed starting and ending points as the belief in their existance is more in the realm of the "local historian" than the scholarly/academic understanding of the Great Trail as a network spanning a huge area. For example, the Pennsylvania-related source referenced talks about the Great Trail as if it was single route from Maryland to Ohio. This author doesn't seem to understand the Great Trail beyond the borders of their own geographic area of interest. Therefore, I think that to say "some say ending in Ohio" (for example) will skew the reader's understanding. Even the Great Lakes, New England and mid-Atlantic parameters I give are prescriptive compared to the more poetic idea of the Great Trail as the trail which leads to the trail which leads to anywhere. However, after considering your comments, I think it might be better to say "Some sources falsely describe the Great Trail as beginning at one specific point or another." (italics indicate additions) What do you think? HouseOfScandal 06:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That solution seems reasonable, but I think it encroaches on WP:NPOV / WP:OR. Is there a more authoritative source (without the local bias) that says as much? Then you might say something like "While some historians describe the trial with a beginning and an ending, the trial is better understood as a larger network of trade routes of varying size without any single direction" and cite the source. If there isn't such a source, then I might take out those two sentences ("Some sources ... an arbitrary matter") and merge the third with the next paragraph -- so the reader gets the scope without any false impressions. But you've done all the research here, so it's of course up to your discretion. :) -- bcasterline • talk 18:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Crossing the Passaic or Fishawack at Chatham

Regarding our initial discussion at your page and my page, am moving this to the article to continue.

The trail that crossed the Passaic River at what would become the village of Chatham in 1710 is the same as the contemporary Route 24 and because of the information given about Route 2 in Massachusetts corresponding to the trails, earlier in the article, I inserted the information.

Now I realize that you do not want to cite each and every trail in the network, since they were numerous, but that landing is important, however, because it became the location of one of the first bridges across the river that, along with the Watchung Mountains, created a natural barrier, hence the early purchase of the land in 1680 and the early permanent settlement established thirty years later. The territory of the Lenape was essentially, what is now New Jersey and the New York harbor area with bits of Connecticut, Delaware, New York state, and Pennsylvania. The old trail is an important route west from the Hudson, and one that was crucial when Morristown was the military capital of the Revolutionary War.

The area through which the trail led, with its rich soils, was a major location for agriculture among the Amerindians, even greater than its use for hunting -- no wonder New Jersey became "the garden state".

If you ever begin to expand the article, this trail is a good candidate for inclusion. I'll be glad to help.

P.S. regarding your comment above regarding the plains and prairies, don't forget that the horse only arrived back in North America with the Spanish, and there was an enormous amount of time prior to that when the Amerindians arrived and dispersed, ten thousand years. The eastern woodlands were especially bountiful -- providing a sustainable way of life without having to traverse great distances or follow herds about. 83d40m 18:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I almost included a mention of that trail becoming Rt. 24, but as the original text left me less than certain that was the case I passed it over. Thanks for the clarification. Can you cite the info so that reference appears along with the others? About the Great Plains, it didn't slip my mind about horses arriving with the Spaniards. It is my understanding that prior to the development of the Native American "horse cultures", the plains were almost devoid of people. Even after the development of these cultures, the population was still less dense than it was around either coast for the reason you mention (I think of the Central Asian steppes were, despite the presence of horse cultures for millennia, the population is still sparse). It might be worth mentioning that even if the plains were packed with people, wherever terrain is flat, unforested and otherwise relatively uniform trails just aren't needed as much. What I think the article is most conspicuously missing is mention of what is now the Southeastern United States; to what extent did this trail network extend down South and why? House of Scandal 22:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you would consider mentioning Route 24 corresponding to the trail at the best crossing of the river at a gap in the mountain range. If you want, I could do it. Let me know... 83d40m 01:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Will provide the source for you about the Fishawack crossing at Chatham and the first bridge soon... have to dig it up again... 83d40m 01:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

building a list of sources - southeastern Indian trails

I know the Indians in Florida moved north during the summer and one good season of growth would cover most trails there, but they must have had good markers, because they returned to the same locations time and again.

I'll build a list here and be typing to you... 83d40m 01:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

a source for trail names and locations in Ohio is included in this old source:
Hulbert, Archer Butler (1900). "The Indian Thoroughfares of Ohio". Ohio Archaeological and Historical Publications. VIII: 264–295.
Unfortuanely, google neglected to scan the big map that seems to have been on pages 262-263 of this journal. Roseohioresident (talk) 01:01, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

rename

Shouldn't this be page renamed something like "Amerindian trail networks"? The Algonguin may have called their section(s) the Great Trail, citation needed, but another people presumably would not and Google searches for "great trail amerindian" and "great trail indian" turn up nothing reputable. The network certainly existed and far beyond the two peoples named in this article, unfortunately I think someone would first have to write the source they would need to use to get this page where it should be. We can fix that name though

Strange thing is, in Ohio, people have restricted "Great Trail" to that path between Pittsburgh and Detroit, with other trails having their own names. A list of the various names was printed in 1900 here:
Hulbert, Archer Butler (1900). "The Indian Thoroughfares of Ohio". Ohio Archaeological and Historical Publications. VIII: 264–295.
The photo displayed at Great Trail illustrates this idea. "Amerindian Trail Networks" seems kind of pedantic, although a logical title like "Great Indian Trail" is probably more hassle than its worth. Roseohioresident (talk) 00:57, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Great Trail/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

In need of more historical evolution material, images and comparisons.

Images (especially maps) would greatly enhance this article.
Needs more details as to the history. How did these footpaths came to become highways?
The comparisons on the talk would benefit from being introduced in the article itself.

Circeus 13:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also needs some more wikifying and splitting up into sections --Miskwito 17:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 17:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)