Talk:Grant Williams (actor)

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References and external links

This article has no references and only Find a Grave and IMBd in the external links. Unreferenced articles may be subjected to an AFD as lacking WP:NOTABILITY. Articles created with no source or references may be listed as violating WP:OR. Find a Grave or IMBd is not acceptable as a source or reference. Otr500 (talk) 00:26, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Self-published source

Much of this article is sourced to Giancarlo Stampalia's book "Grant Williams," published by BearManor Media, 2018. BearManor Media is a pay-to-publish house. We cannot use self-published sources for articles about persons other than the author per WP:SELFPUB. Coretheapple (talk) 18:23, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I see that this is the fifth anniversary of my comment. Rather than throwing an anniversary celebration I'm going to start removing the statements referenced to the self-published book and other inadequately sourced material, including the contention that his birth name was John. That may be so, but it is not adequately sourced. For what it's worth, Williams was buried as "Grant Williams" at the Los Angeles National Cemetery, assuming FindaGrave is correct. Unfortunately when sources are inadequate, it is impossible to say for sure. Coretheapple (talk) 20:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

If "Find-a-Grave" is a reliable source, you'll note the photo of his gravesite there contains the same identification marker, C-218 83, that is listed by the Veteran's Administration for "John Joseph Williams", as referenced in the article. If this is too much original research, perhaps any references to "John Williams" in the article should be removed as well. Saratoga Sam (talk) 21:39, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I went through the death indexes at Ancestry pretty carefully, searching by name and birth date, and couldn't find a John Joseph Williams born on that date in 1931. However if you have indeed found that information, that would certainly be sufficient. But for my own edification I'd appreciate knowing as to how you found it, as a DOB search didn't do the trick for me. Coretheapple (talk) 02:19, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I located a publicly available US government database, searched for "Williams" under the birth and death dates for Grant Williams (as shown on his Findagrave tombstone) and sure enough "John Joseph Williams" popped up. True, Findagrave could be showing a different Grant Williams, but I think the likelihood of that is low. While it skirts WP:OR, I don't object to adding it per WP:IAR and I trust it is OK with you. Now that it is clearly footnoted, and the database is available for verification, I think it will work. We may want to take another look at the Census data, but I'm still chary about using that self-published book. If you have any thoughts on the latter, please advise. Coretheapple (talk) 13:41, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I went through all the articles cited as well as other reputable sources, but was unable to find an explicit cite for equating John Joseph Williams with Grant Williams, other than the self-published book. If the public database you located allows that equation to be made, it will greatly enhance the article. For further indirect evidence, note that the Find-a-Grave webpage for Grant Williams lists his family members; these are the smae names as contained in the exised 1940 census data for John J. Williams. Allowing that census data back would also provide confirmation of New York as his birthplace. The Find-a-Grave website is in my opinion very much like IMDb; it can be a valuable resource for background, but should be avoided for inline citations. Regarding the Stampalia book, it is an exception to the usual slapdash publications from BearManor Media. It is meticulously researched and footnoted. All of the sources currently cited in this article are also referenced there, with the exception of fan websites like "Brian's Drive-In". However, I believe the article can still be improved without recourse to that book.Saratoga Sam (talk) 15:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Well there is no question whatsoever that I engaged in original research to identify Williams as John Joseph Williams. I started with Findagrave (self-published) and used that information in conjunction with the US government database, which is a WP:PRIMARY issue. My comfort level is really quite high, and I imagine that to be consistent we can bend the rule with that book as well. I think it helps that searching "Grant Williams" turns up nothing. Coretheapple (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)