Talk:Grandma Moses

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Grandma Moses has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 11, 2014	Good article nominee	Listed

Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 7, 2017, September 7, 2022, and September 7, 2024.

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The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 06:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Grandma Moses was born in Greenwich New York.

For now, I've removed the contradictory statement in the last sentence, that she outlived some of her ten children, because it says earlier in the article that she had five children. Brownbeanburrito 02:03, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Grandma moses only had five children and i think that i am on crack

       Chicana2009

i've removed the link to http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues01/apr01/moses.html , as it now redirects to the main smitsonian magazine page.

The comment at the end about Rockwell being in Indiana which was near a town in New York does not make any sense at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.50.158 (talk) 02:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When?

The article states "She is often cited as an example of an individual successfully beginning a career in the arts at an advanced age." -- Does the article state what age she was, specifically, when she began painting? I don't see it (but it's early, no coffee yet, etc.) 50.54.224.72 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I caught that, too, and made the appropriate edit. Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

DAR membership

Moses was a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution. If someone wants to work that in somewhere, here is a cite for it: <ref name="dardazzlingdaughters">{{cite web| title = Dazzling Daughters, 1890-2004| work = Americana Collection exhibit| publisher = DAR| url = http://www.dar.org/americana/currexhib.cfm| accessdate = 2006-10-08 }}</ref>. The category [[Category:Daughters of the American Revolution|Moses, Grandma]] should also be added, once it is supported in the article. Crockspot 01:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I had added that, with another source - thanks for the reminder about the category! Done now.--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:47, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

children

only five of her children survived infancy and that is how she out lived 10 children

She outlived her five surviving children because only her daughter-in-law, grandchildren and great granchildren survived her, per New York Times obituary.--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:43, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Found the article's general composition a little confusing (and her first 70 years completely ignored). Did a check to fix disambiguation about whether Greenwich upper NY or Greenwich Village NYNY, and in the process decided to insert a description of her early life from the Traditional Fine Arts Organisation Inc article (which says "the page" was published in Resource Library magazine). I think it puts her discovery so late in life into better perspective. The section also enables the removal (which I've done) of the "10 children, five of whom died" bit from the article's initial intro. The initial intro is still far too long, and could do with moving further sentences down into other parts of the page. I'll leave that for an art expert or a biography expert. Pete Hobbs (talk) 14:55, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Pete Hobbs: Agreed, great points! I think I addressed both issues, but any further input would be appreciaated!--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:49, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@CaroleHenson: Wow! What a difference between 20:26, 21 August 2014‎ and 01:44, 31 August 2014‎. A first-class article transformation, from poorly-constructed "ugly duckling" to fully fledged "Cygnus cygnus". Now extremely well laid out, both informationally and visually. All credit to you, for the major work you've carried out through the last 10 days. It's good to know posted suggestions/requests (such as mine for example, albeit three years ago [!] now) are never a waste of time. I'm pleased you picked up and ran with it - such a good finish, you deserve a medal! First class, thanks to you, really nicely done. Pete Hobbs (talk) 05:29, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Pete Hobbs: Thanks, your comment was a nice surprise. I was floored by the state of the article for such a legendary woman and was thrilled to make it better. She deserves it!--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:21, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Grandma Moses/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Rosiestep (talk · contribs) 14:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I will review this one within seven days. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

Add a bit about early life, marriage, children.

Early life

"Born" is used 3 times in the first 2 sentences. Suggest some rewording.
wl upstate New York and flax mill
add info about her formal education (there's some info in the NY Times article, but perhaps elsewhere as well)

Marriage and children

wl potato chips
"During this time" - add comma
avoid 1 sentence paragraphs
"... continued to operate the farm, with the help of her son Forrest." - Either put quotes around it or rephrase as it's lifted from the NY Times article (December 14, 1961), "... continued to operate the farm with the help of her son, Forrest.".<ref>http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0907.html</ref> Because I noticed this copyvio, I'm concerned there may be others which I haven't found yet. It's clear in the edit history that another editor added the phrase, not you. But before I continue with the GA review, please give the article a copyvio/close paraphrasing review yourself.

@CaroleHenson: Thanks for the improvements you've made thus far to this article; it's mostly in good shape. Please ping me when you're ready for me to continue the review. I'll put it On Hold for 7 days. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much, Rosiestep.

Updates:

Early life 1st two bullets - reworded initial sentences, "upstate New York" was removed in the rewording, wl flax mill
Marriage and children - resolved 1st two bullets, reworded sentence about Forrest

This leaves:

addition to the lede Done
add information about her formal education Done, there was very little information about her education. There was a snippet - that I couldn't fully read - that said something about not being able to go to school much because of work that was needed to be done on the farm. Since it was a snippet, of course I cannot use it, nor confirm if that referred to her or another person. I did find something about her school being made into the museum that holds a large number of her works
review for copyvio - this one will take some time to review all sources to content

I'll ping you when I've completed all the steps.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Updates. Will come back later for the thorough comparison of sources to article content.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've started User:CaroleHenson/Grandma Moses - check sources to document the review of the sources.--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosiestep: I have now addressed all of your issues. There are a couple of places where I could not verify the source, which I noted in User:CaroleHenson/Grandma Moses - check sources, and I made edits to the article where needed. The one I had a question about is that her "exhibitions broke attendance records" in the last paragraph of "Initial exhibitions". (comment: since the work page was just an audit mechanism I did not go back and check for grammar, etc. there).--CaroleHenson (talk) 03:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

Regarding "$1.2 million": Per WP:$, In general, the first mention of a particular currency should use its full, unambiguous signifier (e.g. A$52), with subsequent references using just the appropriate symbol (e.g. $88), unless this would be unclear.
- Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Issues resolved.

Marriage and children

"... in 1905 the Anna and Robert ..." - needs rewording, or remove "the"
- Done, removed "the"--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Their farm, near the place Anna Mary was born, was named "Mount Nebo". " - How about: Their farm, near Anna Mary's birthplace, was named "Mount Nebo".
- Done Since that's the way it's worded in the source - and removing her birthplace phrase means the remaining sentence is the same / nearly the same as the source, I've just removed the sentence and put "farm" in the previous sentence. It's not important.--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The word "her" is used 3 times in the last sentence. Suggest using her given name somewhere in there.
- Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Decorative arts

Unnecessray to refer to her with full name, "Anna Mary Moses", in this section.
- Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Style

"Moses painted mostly..." - suggest: Moses mostly painted
- "Mostly painted" was used in the source. I removed "mostly" and the sentence is still fine. Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Initial exhibitions

I would avoid 1 sentence paragraphs in this section and others further into the article.
- Done, for the "Legacy" section, I bulletted the items.--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Acclaim

I'm not sure she "earned" the honorary doctoral degrees - perhaps "bestowed"?
- I like it! Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"... which was an Academy Award nomination" - consider rewording, "which earned an Academy Award nomination"
- Another issue of then wording it like the source... in this case since there's a limited number of ways to say it, I'm guessing that's fine. I kept going back and forth on that throughout the re-write. Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
" In 1955 she..." - needs a comma (I get that dates are normally set off with commas - I just had so many removed by other contributors I got out of the habit.)
- Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

New York Times - The New York Times
The Herald-Independent - The Herald-Independent
- both Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cats

Ok, although Category:American painters seems unnecessary
- Yes, since American woman painters is a subcategory Done--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

Ok

Images

Ok

@CaroleHenson: Thank you for the improvements you've made thus far. Please ping me when you're ready for me to take a final look at it. --Rosiestep (talk) 05:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosiestep:Great! It seems like it's easier to keep track of my updates if I insert them in the list. It's getting nicely polished, thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

B. MoS compliance:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Good job. Looks adequate for GA. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosiestep: Thank you for the review!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image placement

Hello,

I now better understand that the images weren't being removed. In terms of why I formatted them the way that I did when I gathered them during the re-write of the article:

My guidance has been that it's best to right justify the images, especially when the image is the first in a section... that first came to me during one of my Good Article reviews. I know that there are a number of articles, including good articles, about art or artists that don't follow that approach.

A documentation of the approach was found in a FA review: "Image layout: the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Location states: 'Do not place images on the left at the start of any section or subsection. Images on the left must be placed somewhere after the first paragraph.'"

The current version of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Location states: "In most cases, images should be right justified on pages, which is the default placement." It also says that it should generally default to the "thumb" setting.

In addition, we're in the midst of a Good article review for this article and this was not brought up as an issue that needed to be resolved to pass the GA. So, I would prefer not to veer from an approach than has been approved.

That's my thoughts about it, like I say, though, I do know that there are varying opinions about image placement... and that as a graphics person - your opinion is likely to vary from mine because it comes from a different perspective.--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, there are several version of GA checklists, this is the one I use Template:GATable - and I consider image placement to be addressed in sections 1 for MOS and 6 for images.--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]