Talk:Grammarly

Clean up of promotional edits

As many of you know, this article about grammarly has a lot of promotional edits done to it, and it still sounds like an advert, may I ask all editors involved in the editing of this article, to help fix it, so it doesn't sound like an advert, and for those who are doing promotional editing, I ask you to stop, because Wikipedia is not a a site for making adverts, so who's in ? 96.230.240.122 (talk) 21:57, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Anon, could you could say more about what you think makes the article sound promotional? Editors above have talked about including the price and how that may be seen as promotional, and they seem to have come to a compromise. What parts of the article do you still have problems with? What kind of information do you think the article should contain and do you know of sources which could help us improve the article? — Wug·a·po·des​ 23:47, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

I've gone through the article; there was only a phrase or two that felt promotional, which I fixed. I think the article is pretty neutral now, though it might need some expansion. -- Beland (talk) 01:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Product

Isn't this article about the company, and not the product. If so, why is 60% of the content on the article about the product? 108.7.222.250 (talk) 13:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

It's about both. The company has little notability beyond the product. --Hipal (talk) 16:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

thanks for clearing that up :) 108.7.222.250 (talk) 18:22, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Which languages this product fix?

Article no say Grammarly product fix grammar for which languages. Trinhhoa (talk) 02:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Trinhhoa: Hey Trinhhoa, you are welcome to add the information yourself if you want to. Just try not to say it in a promotional way. GameTriangle (talk) 00:08, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

If you work from reliable, independent sources, you shouldn't go far wrong. WP:RSP and WP:RSN are helpful in determining if a source is reliable. --Hipal (talk) 01:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The infobox says it's available in English only. -- Beland (talk) 01:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Trying to Clean Up and Add

Hello, everyone. I'm new to Wiki editing, but I am trying to add some more information to this article, like a section for what the product actually does and where it can be used. I am being careful not to make it seem promotional, but it is very hard to find information on Grammarly that isn't either the Grammarly website itself or this wiki page. Hopefully pointing out what the product actually does doesn't come across as promotional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CatamountMG (talk • contribs) 15:39, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, what was your rational for deleting all of the references? Some of them were arguably excessive, but in my mind excessive citations are better than no citations at all. Foxbud (talk) 20:00, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted it. The edit summary misrepresented the edit, the edit was so large that it's unclear what was changed, and most of the references were removed.

Please work in small edits with clear edit summaries.

Do not remove references without indicating you are doing so, and with some indication as to why.

This article has a very problematic history. Before editing it, would be best if editors were extremely familiar with WP:NOT, WP:POV, and all related policies/guidelines. --Hipal (talk) 21:02, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Disagreement Regarding New Content

On February 23, Samantha Sandisk introduced changes that Hipal and I reverted per WP:SOAP and WP:N. On March 3, Samantha reintroduced these changes without an edit summary explaining why the mentioned Wikipedia policies do not apply to the changes. Samantha, could you please clarify your reasoning? Foxbud (talk) 16:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and reverted the edits. Thanks for starting this discussion. As Samantha Sandisk has yet to respond to any of the notices on her talk page, I don't expect to see a response here. Looks like a UPE account that needs to be blocked. --Hipal (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

fact check: Ukrainian?

although they clearly support Ukraine against Russia's invasion (as, in my humble opinion, they should), I am not sure if attributing the company as "Ukrainian American" is legitimate. That attribution was just "American" not long before the open warfare started, if the page history is anything to go by. Could someone check on this? I don't have time to investigate this thoroughly at the moment due to an essay I'm writing (which is why I was originally looking up Grammarly)--Macks2008 (talk) 06:01, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

It's actually gone back and forth, even before the invasion. None of the three nearest citations near the claim seemed to support it, but I did find one that at least states that the original founders of Grammarly are Ukrainian (which I've added as a citation). That said, it still might be misleading to attribute the entire company as "Ukrainian American-Headquartered." Foxbud (talk) 13:27, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I have removed this claim from the first sentence. The rest of the intro clarifies the HQ is in the U.S. and the founders were from Ukraine. -- Beland (talk) 01:35, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I believe the phrasing "Ukraine-founded American-headquartered" would be optimal, since the company itself claims to be "Ukraine-founded and built" and says Ukraine is "where our company was founded". At the same time, they don't quite assert to be an American but rather a "global" (as one does) company. So, I think, the proposed phrasing accurately conveys facts, while also reflecting the company's own perspective regarding the matter. Steffuld (talk) 15:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Style of English Used

After reading MOS:STYLEVAR, I propose that Grammarly's style of English be American English. Why? Because its headquarters are in the United States, and MOS:TIES says that "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the [...] English of that nation". Should we make the change? -- 27 is my favorite number. You can ask me why here. 15:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

FTR, the invisible template has since been updated to indicate American English. -- Beland (talk) 01:40, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Removed for discussion: Funding section=

In May 2017, the company raised $110 million in its first round of funding from General Catalyst, IVP, and Spark Capital. In October 2019, the company raised $90 million during the second round of funding, at a valuation of more than $1 billion. In November 2021, the company raised $200 million, led by Baillie Gifford and funds managed by BlackRock, to continue its investment in its artificial intelligence technology and expand hiring.

I've moved this section here as it looks like WP:PROMO and WP:NOTNEWS. --Hipal (talk) 03:17, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree that this section isn't especially noteworthy and feels promotional. Foxbud (talk) 14:25, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Security: on Grammarly's Fix for Vulnerability

This is regarding the security section that has had some contested edits as of late. In particular, the change from:

A few hours after being notified of the vulnerability, Grammarly released an update to fix the issue, which the Google researcher described as "a really impressive response time."

into:

After being notified of the vulnerability a few hours later Grammarly released a hot fix.

I disagree with the claim that the former edit contains redundant information. I would argue that the fact that the Google researcher specifically stated Grammarly's turnaround for the hotfix was "a really impressive response time." suggests that most companies Google deals with usually take a much longer time to release security updates. This fast turnaround time strikes me as relevant and notable information, as it shows that Grammarly displayed an atypical sense of urgency in correcting a critical security vulnerability.

Since there seems to be some amount of disagreement over these edits, I wanted to create this talk section so we could reach consensus. What are people's thoughts on this (in particular: Praxidicae & Alexander Davronov)? Foxbud (talk) 16:21, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@Foxbud: It's enough to state a mere fact that the bug was fixed quickly. Otherwise, such statement needs to meet WP:GNG i.e. have many sources stating that that specific researcher's opinion was really notable. See also WP:NOTOPINION of WP:SOAPBOX. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 11:52, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

That's fair. Looking through a somewhat arbitrary selection of articles on the vulnerability, some incidentally mention the researcher's "really impressive response time" quote, but I wouldn't say that any assign special significance to it. Maybe my argument for keeping it veers into WP:NOR territory. Foxbud (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I think your argue is genuinely coherent, but I don't agree with so much things you said. 177.105.90.44 (talk) 17:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@177.105.90.44: I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you disagree with my original argument for keeping this content, Alexander Davronov's argument for removing it, or my follow up comment agreeing with Alexander Davronov? Foxbud (talk) 16:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

History: Browser Extension "Beta Version"

The paragraph in history that mentions a security vulnerability in the browser extension currently says the extension was in a "beta version." I can't seem to find any mention of it being a beta version in the provided sources.

@Myuno, it looks like you introduced this change here. Would you mind clarifying where you found this information? It's possible I'm misunderstanding the information presented in the cited project-zero bug report. Foxbud (talk) 17:34, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The article still says beta. Do we have a source showing this? McYeee (talk) 15:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Suggesting updates to History section

Hey there! I'm a Grammarly employee with a conflict of interest, so I'm using the edit request system to suggest changes to the company article. For my first request, I've got a History section draft that I would like independent editors to take a look at. I'm going to put a side-by-side comparison in this post, so that everybody can see the changes I've made line-by-line, but in general, I tried to streamline the existing content, firm up sourcing on a couple of claims, and add information about significant developments in the company's history. I've taken pains to source that information from reliable media outlets that have no affiliation with Grammarly.

Here is the side-by-side comparison. My draft is on the right:

Extended content

− Grammarly was founded by Max Lytvyn, Alex Shevchenko, and Dmytro Lider, the creators of My Dropbox, an [[Application software|app]] that checks essays for plagiarism. Grammarly was initially designed as an educational app to help university students improve their English skills. It was later offered to the end customers who use English in everyday life. In early 2018, [[Tavis Ormandy]], a security researcher at [[Google]] who was formerly part of Google's [[Project Zero (Google)|Project Zero]] team, discovered a [[Vulnerability (computing)|vulnerability]] in Grammarly's browser extension [[beta version]], which exposed authentication tokens to websites and potentially allowed them to access the users' documents and other data. Within a few hours, the company released a [[hotfix]] and reported that it found no evidence of compromised user data. Later in December, Grammarly launched a [[bug bounty program]] on [[HackerOne]], offering a <span style="white-space: nowrap">US$</span>100,000 reward to the first [[white hat hacker]] to access a specific document on the company's server. Grammarly effectively severed all business relations with users in [[Russia]] and [[Belarus]] in response to the [[2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]]. The company also announced that it would donate the net revenue earned in Russia and Belarus since 2014 to Ukraine. It also provided free access to Ukrainian media, which reported on the war in English. [[File:Logo de grammarly.png|thumb|Former logo]] In April 2023, Grammarly launched a [[Beta stage|beta-stage]] product using [[generative AI]] called Grammarly GO, built on the [[GPT-3]] [[Large language model|large language models]]. The software can generate and re-write content based on prompts. + Grammarly was founded in 2009 by Max Lytvyn, Alex Shevchenko, and Dmytro Lider. The company initially offered a subscription-based product intended to help students improve their grammar and spelling. That product was subsequently developed into a writing assistant that checks the grammar, spelling, and tone of a piece of writing. By 2015, Grammarly had one million active daily users. That same year, it began offering its flagship product via a [[freemium]] model that allowed all users access to the product's basic capabilities while placing more sophisticated features like style recommendations and plagiarism detection behind a paywall. It also launched a browser extension for [[Google Chrome|Chrome]], [[Safari (web browser)|Safari]], and [[Firefox]], as well as an add-on for [[Google Docs]]. In 2017, Grammarly raised $110 million in its first funding round. In early 2018, the [[Google]] security researcher [[Tavis Ormandy]] discovered a [[Vulnerability (computing)|vulnerability]] in Grammarly's browser extension [[beta version]], which potentially allowed hackers to access users' documents and other data. Within a few hours, the company released a [[hotfix]] and reported that it found no evidence of compromised user data. Also in 2018, the company launched Grammarly Business, a product intended to help companies maintain a unified tone and style across all their communications. In 2019, Grammarly added a tone detector to its writing assistant. This tool uses set rules and machine-learning to help users gauge the character of their writing and tailor it to a particular audience. That same year, the company held a second funding round, raising $90 million. In 2020, Grammarly made its first investment in an outside company, participating in a $10 million funding round for Docugami, a company working on AI-driven document generation. In 2021, Grammarly raised another $200 million, at a total valuation of $13 billion, via its third funding round. By this point, Grammarly had approximately 30 million users. In April 2023, Grammarly launched a product using [[generative AI]] built on the [[GPT-3]] [[Large language model|large language models]]. The software can generate and rewrite content based on prompts. It can also generate topic ideas and outlines for written content such as blog posts and academic essays. The software also has specific business applications. It has been trained on an anonymized library of business writing and is capable of suggesting clarifying edits and additions to work communications such as emails and chat messages. In September 2024, Grammarly announced the release of its Authorship tool, which attempts to identify the original source of a passage of text. It then designates the passage as written by the text's author, lifted from another source, or generated by AI. References

For ease of readability and so that editors can check individual sources, I'm also including my draft by itself:

Extended content

Grammarly was founded in 2009 by Max Lytvyn, Alex Shevchenko, and Dmytro Lider. The company initially offered a subscription-based product intended to help students improve their grammar and spelling. That product was subsequently developed into a writing assistant that checks the grammar, spelling, and tone of a piece of writing. By 2015, Grammarly had one million active daily users. That same year, it began offering its flagship product via a freemium model that allowed all users access to the product's basic capabilities while placing more sophisticated features like style recommendations and plagiarism detection behind a paywall. It also launched a browser extension for Chrome, Safari, and Firefox, as well as an add-on for Google Docs. In 2017, Grammarly raised $110 million in its first funding round. In early 2018, the Google security researcher Tavis Ormandy discovered a vulnerability in Grammarly's browser extension beta version, which potentially allowed hackers to access users' documents and other data. Within a few hours, the company released a hotfix and reported that it found no evidence of compromised user data. Also in 2018, the company launched Grammarly Business, a product intended to help companies maintain a unified tone and style across all their communications. In 2019, Grammarly added a tone detector to its writing assistant. This tool uses set rules and machine-learning to help users gauge the character of their writing and tailor it to a particular audience. That same year, the company held a second funding round, raising $90 million. In 2020, Grammarly made its first investment in an outside company, participating in a $10 million funding round for Docugami, a company working on AI-driven document generation. In 2021, Grammarly raised another $200 million, at a total valuation of $13 billion, via its third funding round. By this point, Grammarly had approximately 30 million users. In April 2023, Grammarly launched a product using generative AI built on the GPT-3 large language models. The software can generate and rewrite content based on prompts. It can also generate topic ideas and outlines for written content such as blog posts and academic essays. The software also has specific business applications. It has been trained on an anonymized library of business writing and is capable of suggesting clarifying edits and additions to work communications such as emails and chat messages. In September 2024, Grammarly announced the release of its Authorship tool, which attempts to identify the original source of a passage of text. It then designates the passage as written by the text's author, lifted from another source, or generated by AI. References

I know I'm putting forward quite a bit in this request, so editors shouldn't hesitate to reach out with feedback or questions. If I can make the review process easier in any way, or if I need to revise anything in the draft, I'll do so to the best of my ability. Thanks! AZH for Grammarly (talk) 19:35, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Not done Your proposed version downplays the vulnerability in three different ways. First, it leave out the phrase "exposed authentication tokens to websites", which is the only line in there that explains what Grammarly actually did wrong. Second, it attributes the ability to "hackers" rather than the websites that the tokens exposed to. Calling someone you exposed those credentials to a hacker is technically correct, but a quick Ctrl-f didn't show that it was done in the source you cite and to my ear it seems less neutral. Thirdly, you add a bunch of info to that section which is, frankly, less important that the vulnerability. If I had my druthers, we'd make the discussion of the vulnerability more prominent, not less.

The last paragraph is also problematic. If you want to mention the AI detection tool, you should also cite [1] or similar saying "A big question driving these decisions is: Do AI-detection tools even work?"

Fell free to submit another edit request to correct the spelling of peoples names. That seems like a good change.McYeee (talk) 06:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey User:McYeee, I appreciate the feedback even though you disagree with most of what I'm putting forward. I fixed the misspelling of Alex Shevchenko's name in my post above. Thanks for catching that.

I'm willing to drop my suggestion to streamline the vulnerability passage. You make a strong argument for keeping it as-is. As far as your criticism re: Grammarly's AI detection tool, I did my best to briefly explain how the product works, as opposed to making a claim about its efficacy. I'm aware that AI detection tools in general can be faulty, but I'm discussing a specific one. That said, I'm open to dropping the Authorship passage as well, since I don't have a reliable source that vouches for its accuracy.

Putting those two issues to one side, perhaps we can find some common ground. My goal isn't to overload the section with irrelevant content. I'm trying to develop a clear, informative, well-sourced picture of the company's history, which includes raising funds, making investments, developing and launching new products, etc. Do you think any aspect of my draft succeeds in doing that? Is there anything that's almost correct but could stand to be adjusted?

Appreciate any further feedback you can provide. I'll await your response and will then do what I can to improve the draft. Thanks! AZH for Grammarly (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: Looking again at EZH's response, the information is good. I've reorganized the article slightly to avoid what I see as problems related to WP:DUE. I've stricken my previous conclusion of not done.McYeee (talk) 06:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a second look, User:McYeee! I really appreciate the help. AZH for Grammarly (talk) 21:38, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Converting infobox to "company" template

Hello again! I wanted to ask if the community would consider changing the infobox in this article to a "company" one. (The infobox currently uses the "software" template.) The article's content sort of splits the difference between discussing Grammarly as a product and Grammarly as a company, but I think it makes sense to lean into the latter, as the company has become quite sizable over the years and receives a fair amount of press coverage that has little or nothing to do with its flagship product.

I mocked up a "company" infobox:

Extended content
Grammarly Industry Software, Artificial intelligence Founded 2009 Founders Alex Shevchenko, Max Lytvyn, and Dmytro Lider Headquarters San Francisco, CA. Key people Rahul Roy-Chowdhury (CEO) Website grammarly.com References

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but if we do go ahead with this infobox change, it might make sense to alter the article introduction as well. I'm not trying to do that here, just raising it as a potential issue to be tackled in the future.

OK, I'll now step out of the way and let the community discuss my suggested change. Thanks! AZH for Grammarly (talk) 03:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Is the phrase "Artificial Intelligence" verifiably due weight? McYeee (talk) 04:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest the confusion is really the fault of the company for naming its flagship product the same name as the company. Does Grammarly produce any other notable products? If we took away every mention of the Grammarly software the article would surely meet the criteria for deletion. All of those sources you linked mention the software in the first few lines of the article. I would submit the reason Grammarly is notable is because of the software. OXYLYPSE (talk) 14:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Per above McYeee (talk) 20:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

We disagree, but I appreciate the time you put into considering this, User:McYeee and User:OXYLYPSE. I'll leave this request closed and move on to other issues. AZH for Grammarly (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Suggesting Support for Ukraine section

Hello again! I'm back to suggest the addition of a Support for Ukraine section. A recent version of the article had some information about Grammarly's efforts to help Ukrainians following Russia's invasion of the country in 2022. My section draft reorganizes that information for ease of readability and adds two new claims about the company giving its product away to Ukrainian journalists and partially funding the rebuild of a children's hospital in Kyiv. Draft text below, in the dropdown:

Extended content

Done I felt like placing this in it's own section may come across as promotional in tone, so I've put it within the history section for now. If you have any more content similar to this then it might warrant creating a separate "charitable activities" (or something similar) section then we can absolutely look into that. Thanks, Encoded  Talk 💬 21:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC) Support for Ukraine Following the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Grammarly ceased all business operations in Russia and Belarus. The company also announced that it would donate all the net revenue it had earned in Russia and Belarus since 2014, about $5 million, to Ukrainian humanitarian groups. Additionally, the company paid the salaries of Ukrainians who left their jobs at Grammarly to join the nation's army and made its product free for Ukrainian journalists publishing news about the war in English. In July 2024, Grammarly donated approximately $500,000 to help rebuild Okhmatdyt children's hospital after the building was damaged by a Russian missile strike. References

I'm putting this forward as its own section because it's a particularly significant effort for the company, which was founded in Ukraine and still has a sizable footprint there. I could also see this content as a subsection within the History. I'll let other editors decide what's best. I'm happy to field any questions or concerns about the content and sourcing as well. Thanks! AZH for Grammarly (talk) 18:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It reads like publicity rather than content in an encyclopedia article.

The first two references are fine. The Bloomberg piece is just a warmed-over press release and shouldn't be used.

I'm not sure what to make of the last two references, and it's unclear if they demonstrate WP:DUE mention in this article.

The first sentence is not verified by the first two references, rather they reported it as an announcement that Grammarly would be doing so. --Hipal (talk) 21:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)