Talk:Goths/Archive 3

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Great Floor Mosaic

As far as I can discover no one makes an identification of the head in the scroll of the Great Palace Mosaic with a Goth and the mosaic is not about Goths. There is nothing in it to identify any part of it as Gothic. The head is between motifs that are of hunting and is called a venator by some. Not even the chief scholar who studied it, Jobst, makes a Gothic identification. Moreover the definite dating to the time and palace of Justinian is a bit premature. The issue is not settled; proposals are still being made. So much as we would like to have a known picture of a Goth this is not it. There are plenty of representations of Gothic kings, popes, saints, ogres, what have you. Find one somewhere else.Dave (talk) 11:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Passage from etymology

The number of similarities that existed between the Gothic language and Old Gutnish, made the prominent linguist Elias Wessén consider Old Gutnish to be a form of Gothic. The most famous example is that both Gutnish and Gothic used the word lamb for both young and adult sheep. Still, some claim that Gutnish is not closer to Gothic than any other Germanic dialect.

I took this out of etymology because it has nothing at all to do with the etymology of Goth. It's not a bad summary except I've already seen parts of it in the language articles. I'm not saying it shouldn't be used but only not under etymology. If it is still around when I get to language I will consider using it.Dave (talk) 01:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You did correct. As much as I know, Wessén's opinion is not that well supported today, because the similarities might be due to archaisms in both languages. Said: Rursus (☻) 09:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Goths v. Goth

There should at least be a disambiguation link at the top of this page for goth and perhaps a diambiguation page. Currently this term links only to this article. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:37, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Malplaced clause

In the end of the Language section, this clause:

The Gutar (Gotlanders) themselves had oral traditions of a mass migration towards southern Europe, written down in the Gutasaga. If the facts are ...snip... in the Germanic language family.

Firstly: why is this in the language section? It should be in a folklore section. Secondly: in some cases, f.ex. in the Gotlandian tell-tale "sedan träsket brann" ("since when the lake was afire", meaning "since far-far ago") regarding Fardume Träsk (the sole important lake on Gotland), the folklore have since been attested by the archeological remains of burned buildings built over the lake on pileworks, but folklore as such is a weak argument in the Gotlandian case, since the Guta Saga could as well have collected its stories from the history of the Langobards who allegedly copycated their sagacious history from the Goths, so: do we actually need that paragraph? Said: Rursus (☻) 09:19, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I solved (?) this by moving it to Symbolic legacy, where I think (IMHO) it is better suited. Said: Rursus (☻) 09:25, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments

An anonymous contributor, apparently from Lithuania, had many inline comments about this article which can be seen in this diff. FreplySpang 01:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Wolfram

Seems to me Wolfram makes three main points about the the Goths. 1- The grave goods did not include weapons. Burial customs should be in the archeology section. But I don't have an archeological source just History of the Goths. 2- The Kingship was stronger than in most other tribes. 3- They were inclusive; that is you could join the tribe, you didn't have to be inborn. I'm not at all certain if or where these belong in this article, but it seems that the ability to easily become a Goth was an essential element of their 1,000 year history of kingdoms in areas from the Baltic to the Black Sea and finally to the Atlantic and Mediterranean.Nitpyck (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

---

Map showing Ulmerugi-Ulmigeria-Culmigeria

removal. Map showing Ulmerugia or UlmegeriaMap from 1500s in ancient Prussia was removed by a user who repeatedly removes references. Observing (70.133.64.127 (talk) 16:39, 6 June 2009 (UTC))

goty=THIUDA = "ти иуда"?

Немцы - "девче" или "ти иуда"? А может всё-таки пастухи-кочевники, безъязыкие?

-Deutsche: "девче" : DEVA "мариша", teuton=тевтон. 1188-1241

-THIUDA: готическое слово"tHiuda" от которого немцы ведут своё самоназвание означает "ти иуда". Потому-что раньше слова писали слитно из-за экономии бумаги, а буква "Н" означала также гласную, либо украинское "и", либо украинское "ї", либо словянскую букву "ять". z. B. de Kooplüde vun de düdesche Hanse.

-пастухи-кочевники, безъязыкие: νέμω, νέμο, νέμεται, немые 6) пасти скот, заниматься скотоводством ex. (ν. τε καὴ ἀροῦν Plat.) οἱ νέμοντες Xen. — пастухи 7) пасти ex. (κτήνη Plat.; τέν δάμαλιν Luc.) тж. med. использовать в качестве пастбища ex. (τὰ ὄρη Xen.) τὸ ὄρος νέμεται αἰξί Xen. — на горе пасутся козы; νέμεσθαι ἐπὴ τῇ κρήνῃ Hom. — пастись у источника

немец Vasmer: Ошибочна также гипотеза о первонач. знач. «кочевник» и родстве с греч. νέμω «пасусь», νομή «пастбище», νομάς «кочевник», νέμος «лес», лат. nemus, -oris «роща». —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.193.107.108 (talk) 10:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Scythian Goths

The Scythian Goths is a strange definition, maybe is useful to modify this? CristianChirita (talk) in order to show that anciet sources used the therm Scythian show a geographic area.CristianChirita (talk) 06:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Fritigern

Are there any recent scholarly works which substantiate the claim that Fritigern was a king? Kulikowski avoids saying one way of the other. Not all major Gothic leaders of the period were kings. Marja Erwin (talk) 16:11, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I believe that Kulikowski has an opinion about that(not regarding the Fritigern in particulary,but as a general observation), regarding the titles. As far I remember he use the judes, and ...It is in the book :) As an personal observation,( Please keep in mind that I'm not having any reference) till the late medieval period the valachian rules in the area ocupied by the goths in late antiquity were named judes.CristianChirita (talk) 06:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Archaeological records for Goths on the Roman Borders

I removed this section since it largely duplicates the corresponding section under Migration. The quote from Madgearu has some interesting information, but as it stands it is poorly translated and not well integrated into the article. Long quotes like this should be paraphrased and tied into the article, not dumped in verbatim as quotes. -- Elphion (talk) 18:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I see your point. Undoubtfull the roman limes are within Cernijakov culture. I can't with Ceriniakov unde the migration, because the migration is contested by some hystorians like Kulicowski. The ideea that all the acheological research was biased by Jordanes make sense.Considering the we will never know the real truth, some doubts must exist on the migration theory.CristianChirita (talk) 20:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd like suggestions on the division into periods. We could do something like Baltic Sea (including the Weilbark Culture) / Black Sea (including the claimed migration, the Chernyakhov Culture, and the Goths on the Roman Borders) or we could use centuries, with some overlap. Marja Erwin (talk) 17:34, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest something like Baltic Sea, Archaeological remains from the Black Sea, and Historical accounts from Greeks and Romans (or Historical accounts of conflict with Greeks and Romans). -- Elphion (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Sources

Why does this list sources with passing mentions of the Goths, lost sources (Cassiodorus' history), fraudulent sources (the Historia Augusta) and sources with no connection to the Goths? I have taken the liberty of cutting Arrian's "Order of Battle Against the Alans" from the list. Marja Erwin (talk) 14:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

They are no more fraudulent sources, then Jordanes, which is based on a lost history, and even lost Cassiodorus is mentioned by others, you have right about Arrian, it was a source used by Ammianus as an inspiration source, still regarding the Adamclisi Metope I belive that the germanic tribes in the first century were similar with the germanic tribes from second century.CristianChirita (talk)

Could someone point out to me where to find Ambrose's reference to Athanaric's royal titles in De spiritu sancto? Paragraph 15 of this edition seems to contain nothing of the sort. Iblardi (talk) 22:11, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it's paragraph 17 of that version - iudex is interpreted as a translation of Athanaric's title. It was paragraph 15 of the version I checked earlier today. Marja Erwin (talk) 03:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

"Postea vero quam fidei exsules abdicavit, hostem ipsum iudicem regum, quem semper timere consueverat, deditum vidit, supplicem recepit, morientem obruit, sepultum possidet. Quantos ergo et Constantinopoli, quantos postremo toto hodie in orbe mundasti!" I think that's the passage in question. Marja Erwin (talk) 03:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Gothic groups

I suggest someone read Heather in particular about the formation of Gothic groups, which is not much dealt with in this article. Ie the Tervingi and Greuthingi were 3rd century groups, amongst others not mentioned. In the 5th century, several groups existed. Only later did the Visigoth and Ostrogoth 'supergroups' emerge after the turmoil and political re-orientation in the post-Hunnic era. 121.209.233.173 (talk) 10:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting (and major) point.--LeValley 05:14, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Questions

If you accept the theory that the Goths originaly lived on the coast of the Baltic sea is it not safe to asume that they;

1. Had regular contact with the people of southern Sweden, who lived only a couple of days journey away by boat and who probably had incentive to trade with their southern neighbors?

2. If they had regular contact with each other and used the same name to describe themselves (or a simular name), then is it not likely that they considered themselves to be the same people?

I think that to much focus in the article and in this discussion has been put on where the Goths originated from. I mean where do the French originate from? Where do the Russians orginated from? Wouldn't it be more relevant to ask- did the Goths consider themselves to be the same as the people of southern Sweden and there maybe Jordanes can give some answeres.

FP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.209.186.173 (talk) 04:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Gutans

please stop restoring the "Gothic: Gutans" without attestation. Least of all in Gothic Unicode. It suggests that the name is actually recorded in Gothic, or even in Gothic script. This is not the case. Feel free to explain "Gothic *Gutans, reconstructed from such and such evidence by this and that author (year)(page)". Please try to remember we are an encyclopedia, not a Unicode test page. --dab (𒁳) 13:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Pietroassa ring: gutaniowihailags often interpreted as "holy (is) the worship place of the Goths". The early form used by the Goths themselves was prob * gutanos. Strabo mentions "Goutones", Plinius "Gutones", Tacitus "Got(h)ones", Ptolemy (some of them) "Gythones". The gotlandians use the derived form Gutna alþing for their tings. I would guess * gutans was singular, and * gutanos plural. Aside from that, there aren't many alternative options. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 13:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Or better, see Ring_of_Pietroassa#Reconstruction_and_interpretation. The name "gutans" is simply trivially known for us who know Gothic, but of course such a name needs attestations, citations to reliable secondary sources. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 13:42, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect (comment moved from top of page)

This article is full of errors and presents old and mostly outdated academic views. The arcticle even gives the impression that the authors seek to foster a kind of Swedish nationalism (so called Swedish Gothicsism). With the actual known history of the Goths this article has very little to do. This article is beyond repair and needs to be re-written in a balanced and academically sound manner.

The best source to base a new article on the Goths on is Michael Kulikowski's "Rome's Gothic Wars", which, despite its narrow title, deals with the entire known history of the Goths. G.H., historian of late antiquity and early medieval history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.134.254.25 (talk) 10:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Definitely this article is heavyily slanted toward 'traditionalist' explanations which have been extensively critiqued by Gofart and Kulilowsky; and needs some serious scholarly attention. Nevertheless, even tho one might aree with nwer interpretations, all sides do need to be presented Hxseek (talk) 02:12, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream scholarship is not a citation

"Mainstream scholarship" (as in textbooks published by academic presses and textbooks published for university use) do NOT agree that G^t/G^Θ comes from Sweden! Quite the opposite. Since the early 19th century, linguists have proposed all manner of names for the pre-PIE (now usually just called PIE, as it's being pushed back in time well before 8000BP), such as Nostratic. But the sound sequence was already there and the toponyms of Sweden follow far more general rules than just Scandinavian or Germanic rules.--LeValley 03:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Legacy of the Goths? Removed entries

Modern cultural Goth subculture

[[:File:Asterixcover-asterix and the goths.jpg|thumb|right|Asterix and the Goths by Rene Goscinny depicted the Goths (portrayed as Germans) as militaristic barbarians.]]

The meaning of what Goths represented or stood for is various among societies. The Goths are perceived to be both barbaric in appearance but shown intelligence to overcome a great deal of struggle and adversity, and Goths were renowned a class of skilled warriors in the Western Roman Empire and the Dark Ages of Europe. The term "Gothic" came to mean dark, macabre, morbid and depressing in Western Europe.

In modern times, the "Goths" are more known as a subculture developed by teenagers in the western world in the 1980s and 90's. Their characteristics of Goth subculture involved the formation of social cliques among each other, the choice of gothic fashion: dress is dark macabre clothing styles, applied face "corpse paint" makeup and dyed black hair, body piercing, some spoke of a marked fascination in death and depressing topics (though a stereotype) and avid fanfare in heavy metal (esp. black metal and death metal) rock music songs or bands. It is unclear whether the "Goth" namesake is linked with knowledge in history about the Goths of ancient times unrelated to the cultural trend in the 1990s and 2000s, thus the meaning of Gothic is interpreted differently in the 21st century.

Gothic Ancestry and the Chilean Race myth

In the South American country of Chile, the Goths appeared in literary work of military officer and physician Nicolas Palacios in his 1910's novel La Raza Chilena. He wrote a national mythology on the origin of the Chilean people, as descendants of "non-Latinized" (Visi)Goths in Spain, a martial race from Gotaland (Modern day southern Sweden) arrived in northern Spain in the 4th and 5th centuries AD. Their descendants the Spanish people esp. in the La Rioja region (formerly the province of Logrono of Castille and Leon) of Spain lived apart from their "Latinized" neighbors.

Palacios explained later the Spaniards of Gothic origin settled the Southern Cone of South America in the late 16th century when Chile and Argentina was a Spanish colony. They heavily intermarried with another martial race, the indigenous Mapuche to produce a mestizo Chilean race, but with (theorotic) evident Germanic characteristics, according to Palacios, found in both physiology and psychology of Chileans. His book was based on myth of Chile's racial identity relating to tales of bygone Goths of medieval Spain, but he insisted the Gothic ancestors went "unmixed" with Castilians lacked evidence to be proven a fact. 71.102.3.122 (talk) 21:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Getica is not Gothica

Because of Jordanes confusion between Getae and Gots, large parts of Getic and Dacian history were introduced in the history of some germanic populations. Some historic events are distorted following this confusion. Caracalla (in 214) received Geticus Maximus and Quasi Gothicus titles following battles with gets and goths. Also Belizarius received Geticus title after battles against gets. Iordanes history (Getica) it is impossible to be credible after all these confusions. Readder (talk) 19:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)readderReadder (talk) 19:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Goths are not Getae

Several historians, including Peter Heather, Arne Søby Christensen and Michael Kulikowski, argue that Jordanes' Getica presents a fictional genealogy of Theodoric and fictional history of the Goths for ancient propaganda purposes, and cast doubt on the Scandinavian origin, on the supposed royal dynasties, and on the supposed 4th-Century Kingdom of Ermaneric.[2][3] Readder (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)readderReadder (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Recceswinth

Is there any point in including the anachronistic, historically inacurrate image of Recceswinth, which IP 96.224.various.avatars from NYC keeps inserting? And if we do include it, should it not go with the discussion of the nobility in Spain (under "Legacy"), since its primary purpose is to glorify the latter? -- Elphion (talk) 04:02, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

It is clearly not appropriate as a lead image and I am not convinced it is more appropriate than the image of the statue of Pelagius in the legacy section, which is what it would have to replace.--SabreBD (talk) 06:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Elphion and Sabrebd. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:52, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Era Style- CE Current Era

This Wikipedia article about the Goths shows consistently dates of BC, AD : 567 AD , 1st millennium BC, 4th century BC, ca 1300- ca 300 BC, 1300 BC, 300 BC and AD 100), yet its shows one single date as 1200 CE.

I changed this to AD to conform to the style used in the article, but was reverted with the claim that scholars now use CE http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Goths&diff=524060598&oldid=524059067 .

I corrected it again and pointed out the inconsistency of that one date (1200 CE in an article of BC's and AD's).

It was changed back to CE with the comment to look up the Wikipedia article about Common Era http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Goths&diff=524094952&oldid=524089113

Well, exactly, wikipedia states

• that CE and BCE are used by some scholarly or religious writings.
• Either may be appropriate.
• Use either BC AD or BCE CE notation consistently within same article.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.206.15 (talk) 23:47, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

germanic

there is no such thing as germanic. thet's an imagination of sabbatean/frankists and vatican. you have indo-iranians(slavs) and north african gatherers in europe and thats all about diversity.212.13.65.14 (talk) 07:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Origins

Hey it is already known that the Wielbark culture is not related to the Gothic invasion. The link between "Scanza" and Black sea the Wielbark culture does not exist,because the Wielbark culture was not Gothic. Please stop speculate that Goths came from this pinky god forgotten island east of Sweden as arceologist prooved this:

However, archaeologists are wary of ascribing ethnicities to archaeological cultures, and it is considered to be an extremely difficult matter. This is reflected by the names used for the cultures, usually baptised after the towns where remains are found. The latest tendency is to doubt the equation between the Wielbark Culture and the Goths, and contemporary researchers do not believe that immigration from Scandinavia is the sole cause of the Wielbark Culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture

The real Goths came from the east, most possible Ural mountains went south to Scythia minor and Sarmatia. They came exactly in 2-3rd centuries along with Hunnic-bulgar invasion. Maybe then in 2-3rd centuries some migrated to the north.

Ugly as a Goth

In my city (northern Portugal, the Germanic early settlers were the Suebi, conquered by the Visigoths) we have an expression which is "Feio como um gode" which means "Ugly as a Goth", to mean people who are very ugly as in "That guy is ugly as a Goth". I always found this expression curious as people also use it naturally, not knowing who the Goths were, must be similar to Vandals (which has the meaning everybody knows), but as expected nothing is written about it. People here also call "gode" to round river stones. Dont know if similar expressions are found elsewhere (most notably in Spain and France) or something was written about it in medieval texts.--Pedro (talk) 22:40, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Pedro, I always heard "feio como um bode" or "ugly as a goat". I'm pretty sure this expression is much more spread across the entire country and Galiza too. Perhaps in your village people use this new version of my traditional expression. Perhaps some one said it the wrong some day and it "stuck". Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.71.87.106 (talk) 15:35, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Dubious

The root in Gdańsk & Gdynia is gъd-, used in various placenames in many Slav countries with the meaning 'wet, marshy/swampy'; see https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gda%C5%84sk#Toponimia & https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdynia#Toponimia for references. 46.186.34.99 (talk) 18:06, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Where were they settled after the Adrianople revolt?

Trying to find where this info is located in Wikipedia, it just seems to mention "They were given land in Roman territory" after the Gothic Wars, but doesn't specify where (I believe it was northern Bulgaria?). I've looked at the Goths, Visigoths, Thervingi, Gothic War, Battle of Adrianople and Alaric I pages but can't seem to find this stated anywhere (unless I'm not looking closely enough).

I know they moved around a bit but surely as terms of the peace they were given a specific area of land rather than just told to "mingle"? Harshmustard (talk) 17:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

vestrogoths

Anyone have information on who the vestrogoths were?

Rescued comment by another user from Archive

Moved

The above comment was posted in an archive by Modredd, presumably by mistake. --Rubbish computer 23:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but presumably this was meant for Talk:Goth subculture? It has nothing to do with the Germanic tribes, the subject of this article. -- Elphion (talk) 00:34, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Elphion: Oops. Yes. Rubbish computer 08:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Expand lead from overview section

The lead contains only two sentences on this rather lengthy topic. I propose to lengthen it by moving content there from the "Historical summary" section. Also perhaps add a "timeline" section. As it's a little hard to follow as it is. --Cornellier (talk) 00:20, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

A scythian heritage perhaps

Weren't Goths the same as scythians , who's homeland was to the east of caspian sea , before the current day sino - mongol inhabitants of central asia ? i don't even have to put a link in here there are multiple web sources claiming this .

Wikipedia itself suggests that every asiatic tribe has raided europe at least once : the Huns , avars , alans , Attila , mongols , etc. so Why not Scythians ? Maybe German people were their foot soldiers . It doesn't seem like the ancestors of current day german people conquered anything at all . If anything Rome conquered germans not the other way around . Isn't it because scythians were also the forefathers to modern day persians that things get political and they are not mentioned here on wikipedia ? The catholic encyclopedia is more fair in this regard . if you visit their webpage you can get better information on non-christian topics such as the scythians.

Derakh (talk) 08:36, 1 September 2017 (UTC)