Talk:Gorals

Goral flag

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Proposed_flag_of_Gorals.svg

{{ Consensus-seeking: The Goral People as an Ethnic Group

The topic of consensus for the Goral article specifying the people as an ethnic group should go forth. The literature on the Gorals overwhelmingly indicates themselves as an ethnic group, as I will show within the links I will provide. The current unwieldy characterisation within this article of themselves being classed as an "ethnographic subgroup" is inaccurate and lessens the academic quality of this article.

The sources that indicate the Gorals as an ethnic group are as follows:

From In Your Pocket City Guides, founded in 1991, it refers to Gorals as "ethnically diverse group of mountain people inhabiting an area stretching west to east from the Ostrawica Valley in today's Czech Republic to Poland's Biały Czeremosz Valley" and "ethnically distinct from the Poles in a number of ways including linguistically,"

Press Agency of the Slovak Republic "Now/Teraz", reports on a Goral-led student-teacher documentary to documentary the distinct ethnic group "Táto etnická skupina" culture of the Gorals. It speaks of their experiences, their folklore and their music and traditions.

Within the second paragraph of the Wikipedia Gorals article, it states "The Gorals as a separate ethnographic subgroup began to form in the 14th century." This represents a POV violation, which forms my argument, due to that article not expressing any mention of a "ethnographic subgroup", in fact it simply says on its second paragraph bloc "Górale podhalańscy jako odrębna grupa zaczęła kształtować się w XIV wieku." "The Podhale highlanders began to form as a separate group in the 14th century." No where in that article does it use the words ethnographic or subethnic.

A Slovak article by Dunszt, the number (1) source on the Gorals Wikipedia article, speaks of different ethnic groups within Slovakia, such as the Roma ethnic group and the Goral ethnic group. Within this article, it refers to Gorals as an ethnic group multiple times, such as: "Nie je to veľmi početná skupina. Do akej miery sa jej treba venovať?

Je pravda, že Goralov nie je veľa, ale zase ani až tak málo. Výstup z nášho projektu bude dokladovať päťciferné číslo. Existujú aj oveľa menšie etnické skupiny. Čo sa týka histórie Goralov, politicky boli vždy problematickou etnickou skupinou. which translates into English as

"It is not a very large group. To what extent should you devote yourself to it?

It is true that there are not many Gorals, but then again, not that few. The output from our project will be documented by a five-digit number. There are also much smaller ethnic groups. As for the history of the Gorals, politically they have always been a problematic ethnic group."

Within this 2021 article from the official website for the Oravská Lesná municipality in northern Slovakia, they state "Gorali chcú byť národnostnou menšinou", which translates to "Gorals want to be a national minority." Further within the article they say "Ako na to? Pri vypisovaní elektronického formulára k sčítaniu obyvateľstva sa pristavte pri výbere NÁRODNOSŤ.  Goralská národnosť nie je vo výbere?  V kolonke „ INÉ“ vpíšte národnosť „GORALSKÁ“ . Tak pomôžte Goraľom k ich zápisu ku Goralskej menšine.

Ak sa k nim prihlási dostatok ľudí, mohli by byť oficiálne uznaní ako národnostná menšina. Viacerí túžia zvýrazniť svoju identitu, ktorá je živá nielen vďaka ľudovej kultúre a reči." which translates to "How to do it? When filling out the electronic form for the population census, select NATIONALITY. Goral nationality is not in the selection? In the "OTHER" field, enter the nationality "GORALSKÁ". So help the Gorals to register with the Goral Minority.

If enough people apply, they could be officially recognized as a national minority. Many want to emphasize their identity, which is alive not only thanks to folk culture and language."

The context of this article is that previously, Slovak citizens could only select between 13 official national minority categorisations. This was not a simple petition, but sanctioned by an official municipality, giving it validity.

I could continue linking sources, which I will as I feel this will drag on to a larger debate given my experience. But I believe that especially with Druszt and Goralia Historia, this article has suffered from non-neutral POV editing, whereby sources are cited and what is written inside them is not written within the article. This is not how Wikipedia is designed, and I think that we should nip it in the bud here and all act in good faith. It is in the best of the article, the best of our time and most importantly the best for the factual accuracy of the topic at hand: the Gorals. I hope we can go on constructively going forth, and right what is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 01:15, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

The active link for Duszt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 01:18, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

• contribs)

A scientific journal from the Institute of Ethnology and Cultural Anthropology, based in Kraków, writes of the unique ethnic identity of the Gorals. This links within it a multitude of professionally backed up sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 07:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Going forward, I will aim to reach use this consensus and hope people respond and engage with the topic so we can make this article the most accurate it can be. As Abel Ravász, a Hungarian-Slovak minority rights activist stated in the first citation of the Gorals article (which I will argue shouldn't be the first citation as it is too non-specific), we should recognise and understand the Gorals with a large G as a cultural ethnic minority and appreciate their voice, instead of succumbing to nationalist falsehoods that the Gorals want something they do not. We shouldn't deny the facts because of political POVs. I look forward to hopefully a good-faith discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 11:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

I have been searching for some more sources on the Gorals. What I find interesting is , a Polish dictionary website that mirrors the words of Abel Ravász, currently used in the first source of the Goral article, where he says there is a distinction between highlander without a capital and Highlander with a capital. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 21:04, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Bump. EmilePersaud (talk) 15:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Can we go through the official Wikipedia:Consensus steps i.e. the template? Merangs (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Within this topic, I shall aim to demonstrate why I believe the article should be edited to categorise the Goral people as an ethnic group. I made a topic within this talk page about the same matter almost a year ago, but I was not fully familiar with the template system so I'll start the conversation alright, using a lot of what I said there.

First of all I'm going to demonstrate what is an ethnic group and what is a nation to show that they are not mutually exclusive.

Defining an ethnic group

Oxford Reference defines an ethnic group as "a community or group of people with distinctive social, cultural, and behavioral characteristics that distinguish them from others in the same or different country or society."[1]

Defining a nation

Oxford References defines a nation as "a large group of people said to be bound together by a shared history, culture, language, religion, and/or *homeland..."[2]

The reason I have given this definition is that I have seen behaviour that seems to suggest people think that you can not be simultaneously a member of an ethnic group and a wider nation. Naturally, the Goral people inhabit areas which primarily includes Poland, Slovakia, as well as the Diaspora. For example, you can be a ethnic Welshman in Britain, you can be an ethnic Bosniak in Turkey and you can be an ethnic Goral in Poland or Slovakia.

Sources backing up Gorals as an ethnic group

Some of the countless independent and high quality source material you can find, which lists the Gorals as an ethnic group, includes the following sources:

No. 1) Dunszt, Sociologist Ábel Ravasz (this article is number 1 as a citation in the article already, I'll get to that) - Ravasz refers to Gorals as an ethnic group multiple times, including stating "Napríklad sme sa stretli s iniciatívou Goralov na Slovensku. Ide o zaujímavú etnickú skupinu, ktorá na Slovensku nikdy nebola ako národnosť uznaná. Gorali, podobne ako Rusíni, žijú na oboch stranách štátnej poľsko-slovenskej hranice...," In English: ("For example, we met with the Goral initiative in Slovakia. This is an interesting ethnic group that has never been recognized as a nationality in Slovakia. Gorals, like Ruthenians, live on both sides of the Polish-Slovak state border...,")

No. 2) inyourpocket, The Górale | Polish Highlanders - This page presents an outline of the Gorals and the culture that sets them apart, as well as their dialect and dialectical subgroups. Using the term ethnic multiple times, the page states "By far the most well known Górale are the so-called Podhale Górale, who inhabit the highland area south of Kraków between the Western Beskid Mountains in the north and the Tatra Mountains in the south. The two principle towns in this region are Nowy Targ and Zakopane, of which the latter is considered to be the unofficial Podhale Górale capital. Ethnically distinct from the Poles in a number of ways including linguistically...," Again, this is setting a framework for a clear understanding of an ethnic nature of the Gorals, and the paragraph also reflects the definitions of an ethnic group given by Oxford Reference. This is not cherrypicked either, other reputable modern dictionaries will give similar definitions for an ethnic group and a nation.

No. 3) Teraz, Nezlomní Gorali putujú s hrdosťou po stopách svojich predkov (The indomitable Gorals walk proudly in the footsteps of their ancestors) - Teraz, part of TASR news org founded in the early 90s, did a piece in 2019 on Goral expression, which involved various students, teachers and media organisations. This is a good example of how Gorals view themselves, one of the most important factors in the formation of identity. Of course we can see with say the Kurds in Turkey you can't just say someone is a "Mountain Turk" and for people to accept it as absolute or monolithic. My point is I want to address the fact that neither Poland nor Slovakia currently recognise Gorals as their own ethnic group. State recognition is just one piece of a greater puzzle and that must be factored in here. The article states "Študenti a pedagógovia z trnavskej FMK a Katedry fotografie a nových médií z VŠVU vystavia v Galérii Ľudovíta Hlaváča v Trnave dokumentárne zábery zo života Goralov. Táto etnická skupina žije v horských oblastiach na Orave a Spiši s vlastným goralským nárečím a valašským folklórom. Prostredníctvom vystavených fotografií "Goral na gory" máte možnosť nahliadnuť do ich životov a spoznať, aké je srdce a nátura pravého Gorala." In English: ("Students and teachers from Trnava FMK and the Department of Photography and New Media from VŠVU will exhibit documentary footage from the life of the Gorals in the Ľudovít Hlaváč Gallery in Trnava. This ethnic group lives in the mountain areas of Orava and Spiš with its own Goral dialect and Wallachian folklore. Through the exhibited photos of "Goral on the mountains" you have the opportunity to look into their lives and get to know the heart and nature of a true Goral.")

No. 4) Podhale - czym jest i gdzie się kończy? O niejednoznaczności pojęć "grupa etniczna" i "region" (Podhale - what is it and where does it end? On the ambiguity of the concepts "ethnic group" and "region"), Anna Marzena Wrona - This is a really thorough piece of academic writing which outlines the struggles in defining Goral ethnic identity. If you can read Polish I do recommend reading it in full. I'll quote one section from its final conclusion which states "Przykładem grupy etnicznej – choć dopiero w stanie tworzenia – są jednak również Górale Polscy, a więc zbiorowość szersza niż Podhalanie. Prowadzi to do konstatacji, że tożsamość etniczna – a z pewnością również regionalna – może mieć charakter piętrowy a wspólnoty etniczne mogą składać się ze wspólnot etnicznych niższego rzędu." In English ("An example of an ethnic group - although still in the process of being created - are also the Polish Highlanders, a community broader than Podhale. This leads to the conclusion that ethnic identity - and certainly also regional identity - may be multi-layered and ethnic communities may consist of lower-level ethnic communities.)

These are four examples I will give to keep it precise and to the point. There are plenty of grassroots articles, opinion pieces, municipal sanctioned efforts to have Gorals be recognised as an ethnic group, and media coverage which outlines Goral ethnic expression across different language formats.

The article content does not reflect the content of what it cites

To get to the point, the Gorals article has fell victim to POV narration and a deep misunderstanding of the contents of the citations. As mentioned before, citation 1 by Ravasz, an article which only mentions the Gorals as a portion of a broader topic on minorities, is used to argue that Gorals are a subgroup of the Polish. What the quote fails to mention is that Ravasz also called the Hungarians (his ethnic group), and Roma as subgroups. He's specifically talking in the context of minority subgroups of a greater nation-state. For example, from the article:

"Napríklad kultúra Rómov na Gemeri je takmer nerozlíšiteľná od kultúry Maďarov, dokonca vnímame, že maďarskí Rómovia ako hudobníci sa môžu považovať za najlepších nositeľov autentickej maďarskej kultúry. Podobne ako Gorali sa môžu považovať za autentických nositeľov slovenskej kultúry." In English ("For example, the culture of the Roma in Gemeri is almost indistinguishable from the culture of the Hungarians, we even perceive that the Hungarian Roma as musicians can be considered the best bearers of authentic Hungarian culture. Like the Gorals, they can be considered authentic bearers of Slovak culture."

This is simultaneously comparing the Roma, an ethnic group originally from India[3], to the Gorals, whilst also stating that they both can be authentic bearers of the culture of their greater nation. In short, a separate ethnic group can be considered, or should be considered, just as much as and capable to be a part of their wider nation as another, whilst being their own distinct ethnic group. That is what the sociologist Ravasz was arguing, and that is the source which the user who categorises the Gorals as an 'ethnographic subgroup' chose approaching a year ago as their source number 1. I entirely agree with what source Ravasz was actually saying, not just cherrypicking one part of his interview out of context.

The history section also is POV and makes up the content of the citation. The referenced article, Górale Historia, simply states "Górale podhalańscy jako odrębna grupa zaczęła kształtować się w XIV wieku." In English ("The Podhale highlanders began to form as a separate group in the 14th century.") This is opposed to the article as it currently stands which states "The Gorals as a separate ethnographic subgroup began to form in the 14th century", again, POV or original research.

Conclusion

I believe I have demonstrated the cause for categorising the Gorals as an ethnic group, the definitions showing that one can be an ethnic group part of a wider nation, and the inaccuracies which currently exist in the article as present. I hope that I will get responses to this proposal so we can work together to create a better article. Thanks for reading. EmilePersaud (talk) 22:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The facts speak for themsleves and the silence from people I know would have read this is deafening. EmilePersaud (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Vlachs?

I seriously doubt that gorale were called vlachs. There is a book cited, but it is nonreadable. It is in Polish so it cannot possibly say that they were called "vlachs". Please quote what exactly the book say. Also, the author, "Marek Kubica", is not an expert in ethnology. he is merely a "collector of old views". And the book is in fact an album --Altenmann >talk 01:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Updates to the page

User:Skerillion has developed an updated version of this article in User:Skerillion/sandbox, but is unable to edit this page. Would there be any objections if I moved the contents there to the article? Vininn126 (talk) 10:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

No. The page was protected for a reason. Someone has to review the differences and vouch for the changes. At the first glance I see two issues:

• what the heck is "proposed Goral flag"?
• List of notable people is missing in new version.

--Altenmann >talk 16:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Goral flag is well a proposed Goral flag. The majority of flags for Slavic subethnic groups on wiki lack any official recognition. I can readd the notable people section or just keep it as it is. Skerillion (talk) 20:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Flags proposed by who knows whom do not belong at the top of the article per WP:UNDUE. Which other subethnic groups have special flags in Wikipedia articles? I will take a look. Masovians or Sącz Lachs don't have. --Altenmann >talk 21:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Masurians and Kocievians Skerillion (talk) 08:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I reviewed the changes using a temporary page and I see that replacement of content with massive changes is out of question. The user has to follow the rules of {{editprotected}} and add changes one by one. I will add uncontroversial cosmetic changes from the new version. --Altenmann >talk 17:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

All right so I shall proceed to slowly add the changes one by one Skerillion (talk) 10:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Altenmann What is the process for adding changes one-by-one for someone who cannot edit the page? Vininn126 (talk) 14:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126: use "template:editprotected. --Altenmann >talk 17:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Skerillion (talk) 15:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

History section to be changed from how it is to how it is in my sandbox (especially removing the parts about Jánošík and adding specification on Vlachs) due to being inaccurate in many places and missing key parts of history Skerillion (talk) 07:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. -OXYLYPSE (talk) 11:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)