Talk:Glina massacres/Archive 1

Archive 1

NPOV

Use of vague generalisations like "Right wing" and "Conservative groups" in the phrasing makes me think this was written in an air of political biased.

Thoughts? Neuro√Logic 03:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Where are those phrases used? I don't see them anywhere in this article. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Paraphrasing on the exact terminology, mostly pointing to "Far-Right" and referencing to them being "Conservative" and such. Neuro√Logic 16:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you arguing that the Ustaše wasn't a far-right group? It explicitly self-identified as fascist - that's far-right, by definition. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

You're defining a phrase that can't be defined, considering it's vague and fluctuating definition...Anything that's against gay marriage is far-right? Those for, are far left? Political tensions and issues surrounding Serbia, have created so many biased phrases in these sort of articles. I don't insinuate they are anything, on either "side" I just don't think it's appropriate to refer to them from that sort of vague standpoint in an encyclopædia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neuro√Logic 23:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not a question of "defining a phrase that can't be defined". Just about every reliable source that discusses the Ustaše describes them as fascist - heck, they described themselves as fascist. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree that they're facist, just that such a vague term doesn't have any place here. I completely agree with the edit changing far-right and similar vague terms to something they themselves have identified as, and a definable political idea. Thank you ChrisO =) Neuro√Logic 16:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, no problem. I'll remove the NPOV template now, if we've resolved this issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Other sources

Here're some other sources that must be considered [1]. Kubura (talk) 19:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to have to pour cold water on this, but I'm afraid that other wikis are largely not acceptable as sources; please see WP:SPS. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Not so with the wiki in question: it is a private wiki affiliated with Glas Koncila, therefore a reliable source. But alas, it is hardly a neutral source: Glas Koncila is a bit infamous for its WWII revisionism, and its series of articles about the Glina massacre is a case in point. (Another example: when Ivo Goldstein published a book titled Holocaust in Zagreb, Glas Koncila said its title is "peculiar" (IIRC: "knjiga začudnog naslova") - all despite the fact that 80% of Zagreb Jews perished in WWII death camps in Croatia and abroad.) GregorB (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Claim re one of the largest single acts of murder

In the context of WW2 Yugoslavia, given Nuremberg took evidence re 250 and Tomasevich (2001) p. 536 says 260, and the claim of 2000 is unsourced, this is a highly dubious claim in view of other massacres that occurred on all sides. It will need sourcing. Peacemaker67 (talk) 23:07, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Glina massacres/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: 1ST7 (talk · contribs) 02:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll review this nomination. Initial comments should be posted soon. --1ST7 (talk) 02:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Here's the review:

1. Well-written

   • The description of the second massacre is a little confusing. It sounds as if the killing of 700-1,200 people was initiated by six soldiers, and that more showed up after massacre started. Can you please specify how many members of the Ustaše participated in the massacre? And also how the original six subdued the crowd of 700-1,200? (By threatening them with rifles or other weapons?)

No, the Serbs thought they were going to be converted to Catholicism, which is why they entered the church without any struggle. I've clarified this in the article. What do you think?

1. Verifiable with no original research:
2. Broad in its coverage:

   • Is it possible to expand the "Legacy" section?

I've expanded it somewhat.

1. Neutral:

   • I have some concern about the opening paragraph. The first sentence describes the massacres as "genocidal", but it does not seem particularly common for that terminology to be used in that manner in other articles unless the events being described are nearly universally recognized as such. Do you know if that is the case with this incident? Another point of concern is the second sentence, which I don't believe complies well with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch: "They are considered amongst the most infamous of the early atrocities perpetrated by the Ustaše in the Independent State of Croatia (NDH)." It is best to attribute the statement to the source ("according to X, they are among the most infamous...")

1) The "genocidal" bit is taken from Mirković, who attributes in the "Notes" section such a description to several works published by Croatian authors prior to the breakup of Yugoslavia. These works, in turn, point to the Nuremberg trials which established that Ustaše persecution of Serbs was, in fact, genocidal. (see: Singleton, A Short History of the Yugoslav Peoples, p. 177) What Mirković is saying, in effect, is that the massacres were genocidal because they were part of a larger campaign of genocide perpetrated by the Ustaše. 2) As for the "infamous atrocity" statement, I've attributed this to Tim Judah. 23 editor (talk) 18:21, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

1. Stable:
2. Illustrated, if possible, by images:

I'll put the article on hold for a week to give you time to address these issues. Thanks for your work! --1ST7 (talk) 05:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

The changes look good, and I believe the article now meets the GA criteria, so I'm passing it. Congratulations, and thanks for your work! --1ST7 (talk) 23:08, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Great, thanks for the review! 23 editor (talk) 23:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

You're very welcome! --1ST7 (talk) 23:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Photograph used in this article

The source link for the church interior pic used in this article links to a completely different and unrelated pic at the site in question. It needs to be properly sourced asap. Peacemaker67 (talk) 22:37, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I have also tagged the serb cutter knife pic. The source is in Croatian. Given the caption for this pic refers to the concentration camps, it would be appropriate for the relevant paragraph of the source to be quoted for the use of this knife in the Glina massacre. Peacemaker67 (talk) 22:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The use of the serbcutter is also inconsistent with the quote of Serbs being stabbed.Peacemaker67 (talk) 02:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Glas Koncila

Note the different version of events in Glas Koncila.[2] Looks more like denialism to me, but it comes from a relevant source so perhaps it should be addressed in the article, one way or the other. GregorB (talk) 14:34, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

The source is relevant, yes; but it is not reliable when it comes to genocide and war-related topics. As you've noted, the statements more or less border on [genocide] denial. Because of this, I won't advocate this article as being reliable when it comes to World War II Balkan atrocities just like I wouldn't advocate the addition of Erich von Däniken's books to a Wiki article concerning ancient history. Kind regards, 23 editor (talk) 22:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Interestingly, both my remark and your response mirror the 2008/9 discussion in this talk page (see above; I had forgotten about it). I'm having second thoughts about the source. Not about its reliability - it is unreliable, but that's not the point, since unreliable sources can still be (and are) used to illustrate fringe views (on condition, of course, that they are reliable at least in the way they present these views). However, I'm not aware of any source, reliable or not, concurring with T. Vuković's article in Glas koncila, so it may not even qualify as a fringe view. GregorB (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

monument 1969-1995,

• priopćenje povodom 71 The building standing in the place of the Serbian-Orthodox church should be given back its original name - memorial house - and the plaques bearing names of victims should be returned to their places / Objektu na mjestu srpskopravoslavne crkve Presvete Bogorodice treba vratiti njegovo izvorno ime - Spomen-dom, a ploče s imenima žrtava treba vratiti na njihova mjesta. International scientific colloquium was held from June 28 to 30, 2012.

— Yuriy Dzyаdyk (t•c), 12:39, 26 December 2016 (UTC).

Factual accuracy is disputed - forgeries

• This statement is a falsificate

The next day, Pavelić visited Rome and was granted a private audience with Pope Pius XII, who offered de facto recognition of the NDH on behalf of the Holy See. Although he was aware that Pavelić was a totalitarian dictator, there is no evidence that he had knowledge of the first Glina massacre at the time.[7]

Midlarsky actually said

Four days after the Glina masssacre, Pavelic had a "devotional" meeting with Pope Pius XII in the Vatican; at the same time, the Holy See granted de facto recognition to the newly created Nazi puppet Independent State of Croatia. As John Cornwell indicates, there is no evidence that the pope was aware of these massacres that time.

• Further, this statement is equally wrong

Estimates of the number of Serbs killed on 11–13 May vary. Historians Jozo Tomasevich[15] and Ivo Goldstein put the number at 260.[23]

Not estimates at all. Tomasevich and Goldstein just repeated Stepinac: Nadbiskup je jednako žurno i oštro prosvjedovao čim je doznao za pokolj Srba u Glini počinjen 13. svibnja 1941., napisavši pismo dr. Anti Paveliću, u kojem je istaknuo: »Ovaj čas primio sam vijest da su ustaše u Glini postrijeljali bez suda i istrage 260 Srba i.e. Stepinac wrote, "This moment I received a news that Ustashis in Glina shot 260 Serbs without a court and investigation" in some letter sent to Pavelic.

• This statement is not only false but cynical and immoral also

Croatian authorities began working on the conversion of the museum into a general-purpose cultural institution named the "Croatian Home" (Croatian: Hrvatski dom).

Drago Pilsel is clear Zašto HSS-u smeta Spomen-dom žrtvama ustaškog terora u Glini? where he wrote: "Hrvatski dom u Glini do 1995. godine (iza Oluje) zvao se Spomen-dom, a podignut je na mjestu pravoslavne crkve u kojoj su u srpnju 1941. godine ustaše pobile skoro tisuću građana srpske nacionalnosti. Tamošnji HSS opravdava furiozni obračun s lokalnim Srbima nekakvim dignitetom Domovinskog rata te optužuje rodbinu ubijenih u ustaškom zločinu da 'izaziva netrpeljivost', da 'narušava međunacionalne odnose' i da ne poštuje hrvatske generale osuđene u Haagu"

• This is false too

Historians Sabrina P. Ramet[24] and Marko Attila Hoare estimate that about 300 Serbs were massacred[25] while historian Davide Rodogno puts the number at 417 killed.[26]

Rodogno actually quoted a wartime document (Promemoria per il duce con allegata una relazione del 9 Iuglio redatta dal Comando dei C.C.R.R. dela II Armata) sent to Mussolini on July 9 1941 where he says, "In the district of Glina more than 18,000 Serbs were murdered, 417 of them butchered inside the Orthodox church." --77.46.189.228 (talk) 14:02, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

My two cents: "From an estimated 300,000 Croatian Serbs that were murdered by the Ustaše from 1941 to 1945,[14] more than 18,000 were from Glina at its surroundings.[26]". The second claim is Rodogno's and it's about number of killed Serbs up to July 9, 1941--93.86.142.92 (talk) 13:42, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

G'day 23 editor, could you verify these queries please? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Everything written above is online verifiable by anyone. This list of forgeries is only a tip of the iceberg.--93.86.142.92 (talk) 02:19, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Further, the use of scholarly disqualified authors and books is another problem of this article. about Judah's i Tanner's books read Dusan Djordjevic and about Cohen's pamphlet read Miroslav Svirčević and D. B. MacDonald--93.86.142.92 (talk) 02:42, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Judah and Tanner are both reliable sources. Cohen is passable, depends on what it is being used for. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:10, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Please, learn to counter reference by reference, not by your personal opinion. As you have to know personal opinions, according to WP:POV, are not acceptable in this discussion. While talking about Judah and Tanner, Dusan Djordjevich (is a Stanford University scholar; who are you?) clearly stated:

To sum up, neither book is adequate for undergraduates, and neither fills the need for an up-to-date survey of its subject for a general audience. They offer an introduction to certain important moments in each nation's historical memory, although one must be aware of misleading interpretations and omissions. The portions on the 1990s can be read with profit as vigorous complements to the available literature on the subject.--93.86.142.92 (talk) 04:37, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Peacemaker67. The only thing I can do to improve this article is add material from Goldstein's 1941: The Year that Keeps Returning. As for the "forgery" allegations, the politest thing I can say is that the IP clearly doesn't know what the meaning of the word forgery is. 23 editor (talk) 15:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Not allegations. Here is a new example of 23 editor's forgery:

Viktor Meier in his Yugoslavia: A History of Its Demise on page 127 says: The murderous actions of the Ustaše against the Serbian population in Lika, in Banija, and in Bosnia began around June 1941, around Glina, where the Ustaše Minister of Justice, Marko Puk, had his political base.

Our bright man 23 editor reads it as: Shortly after the Ustaše took power, the Croatian Minister of Justice, Mirko Puk, established a base in the town.[18]

Laughable, indeed.--79.101.192.37 (talk) 19:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Here some things are not clear

• This is information for August 1941.

Veći broj seljaka iz Vrginmosta i okolice stradao je kada su početkom kolovoza na prevaru odvedeni u glinsku crkvu na prekrštavanje. A sve muškarce otpremili u Glinu i zatvorili u pravoslavnu crkvu. Preko noći izvršen je pokolj svih do posljednjeg...” Činjenica jest da je veći broj Srba iz okolice Vrginmosta stradao u tom pokolju, ali nisu do kraja rasvijetljene činjenice o broju ubijenih, na koji su način i na kojem mjestu spomenuti Srbi ubijeni. A large number of villagers from Vrginmost and the surrounding area were killed at the beginning of August when they were fraudulently taken to a Glina church for conversion. All the men were sent to Glina and imprisoned in the Orthodox Church. The massacre of all of them was carried out overnight ... ”The fact is that a large number of Serbs from the vicinity of Vrginmost died in that massacre, but the facts about the number of killed, how and in what place the mentioned Serbs were killed have not been fully clarified. (page 147 [3])

• Second source:

"Alliance of Anti-Fascist Fighters and Anti-Fascists of the Republic of Croatia", and this information: "U razdoblju od 26. do 29. srpnja 1941. godine ustaše su pohapsili oko 300 žitelja Topuskog Gline i okolnih sela, zatvorili ih u pravoslavnu crkvu u Glini i u noću 29./30. ih pobili u samom „hramu božjem“ i obližnjim stratištima..In the period from 26 to 29 July 1941, the Ustashas arrested about 300 inhabitants of Topusko Glina and the surrounding villages, imprisoned them in the Orthodox Church in Glina and on the night of 29/30. they were killed in the "church" and nearby execution sites.[4]

• I learned in Yugoslavia that Serbs were imprisoned in a church and burned alive. Information's from article: May 1941, The Ustaše then locked inside and massacred those who did not possess conversion certificates, including priest Bogdan Opačić. The bodies were then left to burn as the Ustaše set the church on fire. On the night of 30 July 1941, a massacre similar to the one in May again occurred in Glina..When all were inside, the doors to the church were sealed. The Serbs were then forced to lie on the ground as the six Ustaše struck them one by one on the head with spiked clubs. More Ustaše then appeared and the killings continued. Beginning of August all the men were sent to Glina and imprisoned in the Orthodox Church. The massacre of all of them was carried out overnight.

• It's about same church which was burned in May 1941? @Peacemaker67: give me a some clarification. And see also this discussion please. Thanks. [5] Mikola22 (talk) 22:13, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

This article needs a review, to verify all the citations and ensure there is clarity about when the massacres took place and what occurred on each massacre. I haven't got time to look into it right now, but suggest starting with non-Yugoslav sources to clarify the dates and basic facts, then use the Yugoslav sources for detail. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:46, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

• First source, Dr Filip Škiljan(Serb minority from Croatia) in his source mentions one event in the church ie from "beginning of August" and with fact "how and in what place Serbs were killed have not been fully clarified".
• Second source, is "Alliance of Anti-Fascist Fighters and Anti-Fascists of the Republic of Croatia" and information "from 26 to 29 July 1941 they were killed in the "church".
• Third source, Igor Mrkalj(Serb minority from Croatia): "Dana 4. kolovoza 1941. pravoslavna crkva u Glini postala je poprište još jednog tragičnog događaja, poznatijeg kao “pokrst” On August 4, 1941, the Orthodox Church in Glina became the scene of another tragic event, better known as the "baptism".( page 143 [6])
• I now found and Serbian Yugoslavian, fourth source: Pokolj u glinskoj crkvi 29- jula 1941. godine ..ostalih 1200 ljudi dovedeno je u crkvu radi pokrštenja; oni su na grozan način prevareni, bespomoćni zatvoreni u crkvu te na najzvjerskiji način masakrirani. Ubijanje je trajalo punih 8 dana..Massacre in the Glina church July 29, 1941.. the other 1,200 people were brought to the church for baptism; they were horribly deceived, helplessly imprisoned in the church, and massacred in the most brutal way. The killing lasted a full 8 days" (page 151, [7]). Here it would mean that these crimes are from July 29, 1941 until 6. August 1941.

• For now as far as I can see in newer and neutral sources this is about one event in the church. While this article talks about two events. If there were more events in that church these sources would present it because they talk about these events in Glina.
• From Serbo-Croatian Wiki (Broj žrtava nije izvestan. Na nürnberškom procesu se pominje da je 250 ljudi došlo na ceremoniju,(Misha Glenny, The Balkans, 1804-1999: Nationalism, War and the Great Powers, p. 500. Granta Books, 2000. ISBN 1-86207-073-3) a Tomašević tvrdi da je bilo 260.(Tomasevich (2001), p. 536)...The number of victims is unknown. At the Nuremberg trial, it is mentioned that 250 people came to the ceremony, and Tomasevic claims that there were 260.[8] Mikola22 (talk) 06:41, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
• Jozo Tomasevich claim in his book that this massacre is from May 12.[9] Mikola22 (talk) 07:23, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
• Manus I. Midlarsky(The Killing Trap: Genocide in the Twentieth Century): "in one case inside a Serbian Orthodox church"[10]
• Slavko Goldstein, (1941: The Year That Keeps Returning): "2 August 1941, some one hundred Serbian Orthodox man"[11]
• Ruth Mitchell (The Serbs Choose War): "about 3,000 Serbs were murdered"[12]
• Edmond Paris (Convert...or Die): "in groups of 1,000 to the local Orthodox Church , and where every single one of them was murdered by Ustashi knives"[13] Mikola22 (talk) 07:42, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

• No, not according to Hoare, who is highly reliable and a highly respected specialist on Bosnia in WWII. On pp. 22–23 of Genocide and Resistance in Hitler's Bosnia he mentions two massacres, on p. 22 he says "On 11–12 May, the Ustashas massacred 300 Serbs in Glina", and on p. 23 he says "On 24–25 July, the Ustashas massacred 1,200 people at Grabovac near Petrinja and at the end of the month perhaps as many as 2,000 at Glina". You need to look at more sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:56, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Slavko Goldstein's 1941: The Year that Keeps Returning has detailed coverage of the first (May) massacre starting on p. 125, and he mentions a later massacre in the Orthodox church on p. 135, but I can't see the rest in preview. Tim Judah mentions the later massacre in The Serbs: etc p. 127, saying it happened on 5 August. Halpern & Kideckel's Neighbors at War: Anthropological Perspectives on Yugoslav Ethnicity mentions the both killings on p. 134, and says the total was about 2,000 Serbs killed. Just be aware that killing a large number of people, especially with clubs and knives, can take a while, and these killings may have been conducted over several days, leading to the differences in dates. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:38, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

There are no two massacres in the same church, it is known as one event. At least that's what I learned in Yugoslavia. And Yugoslav sources prove that. I’m talking about a crime in the church and not about all crimes in that area which existed. Hoare does not mention two massacres in the same church. Mikola22 (talk) 08:50, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter what you learned in Yugoslavia, we put in articles what is in reliable sources. The current scope of this article is two massacres (or periods of killings), one in May 1941 and one in July/August of the same year. If you want to split the article into two, then you should propose it following the instructions at WP:SPLIT, but it seems to me that given there were two massacres by the Ustashas in the same town within a few months, keeping them both in the one article makes sense. I don't have a formed view about where each massacre took place, as I haven't examined the sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

It is very likely that this is the same event with different dates shown in the article as two events. I as an editor, must point of this issue. It has nothing to do with my learning in Yugoslavia, because new sources from Croatia(Serbs of Croatia) also talk about it. Serbian source "Покољ у Глинској цркви је назив за ужасан ратни злочин који се десио на почетку Другог свјетског рата. Хапшења Срба су отпочела 29. јула 1941. године, а убијања су потрајала наредних три-четири дана. У том монструозном злодјелу убијено је најмање 1.764 Срба..The massacre in the Glina Church is the name for a terrible war crime that happened at the beginning of the Second World War. The arrests of Serbs began on July 29, 1941, and the killings lasted for the next three or four days. At least 1,764 Serbs were killed in that monstrous crime"[14] and Croatian source: "Nema dvojbe da su se u Glini dogodili zločini i da su povezani s crkvom Presvete Bogorodice: tu je ubijeno “više od 300, manje od 400“ Srba, tvrdi Slavko Goldstein, autor knjige “1941. godina koja se vraća”..There is no doubt that crimes took place in Glina and that they were connected with the Church: "more than 300, less than 400" Serbs were killed there, claims Slavko Goldstein, author of the book "1941". year that comes back ”.[15] Let everything stay in the article as it is I don't mind. But if someone suggests any changes my support is here. Mikola22 (talk) 09:45, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mikola22: There were clearly two major massacres which occurred in Glina. One on 11-12 May and one in late July to early August depending on the source. I merged the "Prekopa massacre" article you created because it's referring to the first massacre. Goldstein doesn't say it happened in a church but that the men were taken to a pit:

"The Ustasha were leading them to a large, long pit that peasants from the surrounding Croatian villages had to dig and then remain silent under the penalty of death.. The killings at the pit were carried out by Ustasha returnees, mostly with guns.." (p. 132)

"Various publications and sources have cited different figures for the number of victims in Prekopa on the night of May 12: 260, 307, 322, 370, 373, 391, 437, 520 and 582." (p.134)

"In my opinion the most useful source for establishing the number of victims is the list published in Ljetopis.. the list now included 391 victims.. however there are 40 names and surnames of people on the list from the area around Glina, and it is not clear if they were killed on the night of the massacre in Prekopa with the Serbs from Glina or before or after that night at some other location." (p.135)

It seems to me it's talking about the events of 11-12 May, just describing the killing method and location differently than other sources. The number of killed roughly corresponds to the estimates given by Tomasevich, Ramet and Hoare. The differences should be noted in the appropriate section but I don't think it deserves an article on its own when the scope of this article covers both. Informing Peacemaker67 and Amanuensis Balkanicus for clarity on this. --Griboski (talk) 23:34, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Frankly, it is obvious from the reliable sources that there were (at least) two massacres in the Glina area, as Griboski says. Details seem to vary, some sources talk about it generally, others are more specific, and we need to focus on the neutral ones that provide good levels of detail, compare and contrast what they (and the other more general ones) say in this article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:38, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Various reliable sources give completely different estimates of the numbers killed, the location and the manner in which the slaughter was done especially for the second one, which makes this a very confusing and messy topic. But my contention is that there shouldn't be a separate article for the first massacre based on Slavko Goldstein's account just because it differs from others. His account should be included in this article. That is why I had merged Prekopa massacre. It is talking about the same 11-12 May massacre covered here. If someone wants to split these events into two articles, they should start a discussion but it doesn't make much sense. --Griboski (talk) 01:02, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Agree that the scope should stay the same, with no content fork articles spun off. It will not be an easy task to make this a high quality article, but the emphasis should be on comparing and contrasting the details in the various sources. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:39, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

New article Prekopa massacre

This article can easily be merged or remain standalone in the future but for now we cant have fact about 12 May massacre in the article with historiographical fact which is not mentioned (in this case) by the chief historian of Croatia and probably of Yugoslavia for this issue(Slavko Goldstein). Readers are misled because the article in the introductory part for 12 May speaks about Serbs which are brought to the Church and killed there and then Orthodox Church in Glina was set on fire with Serbs which remained in it, and additional information for 13 May and 100 Serbs which were killed in Prekopa massacre. When I enter information to this article which concerns Prekopa massacre I cant state that event did not include the Church massacre or 13 May fact (additional 100 Serbs killed in Prekopa). Readers will think because of the introductory context that 300-400 people of Prekopa massacre are executed in Glina Orthodox Church on 12 May and that they were set on fire and that this event is in fact Prekopa massacre. This is why we must have a link and stand-alone article which is confirmed by quality sources that the crime of 12 May be understandable because here some things are not clear.

• Slavko Goldstein in his book (1941: The Year That Keeps Returning, page 115-139) also claim that "Various publications and sources have cited different figures for the number of victims in Prekopa on the night of May 12: 260, 307, 322, 370, 373, 391, 437, 520, and 582". Therefore he is familiar with 9 sources which talk about Prekopa massacre and he does not mention that this crime would be associated with 12 May massacre in Glina Orthodox Church where Serbs were set on fire together with the Church and with additional fact about 100 Serbs which were killed on 13 May in Prekopa. Here we have and source of Mrkalj Igor ("Slovenac među Hrvatima i Srbima: Franc Žužek, župnik u Glini, 1927. — 1955" page 136) which also does not mention these events. Also we have and Rory Yeomans who does not mention these events on 12 May, (page 11)[16]

• @Griboski and Peacemaker67: Until things are clarified and settled, I suggest that article Prekopa massacre remains a stand-alone article. And in the future all options are open. Mikola22 (talk) 05:55, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Some sources state that the men were taken to the Church and killed on May 11-12, others say they were imprisoned and executed at a pit on May 11-12. The former might very well be wrong but we either have to compare and contrast both versions or accept only one version. The "Prekopa massacre" you are referring to is the first Glina massacre. Goldstein is talking about the men from Glina who were rounded up by Puk and executed. He, like the other two sources you listed, describe a massacre in a pit and not in a church.

There wasn't a massacre of ~300 men at a church on 11-12 May AND a separate massacre of ~300-400 men at a pit on 11-12 May. The math alone doesn't add up based on the death tolls given and Goldstein's own estimate for the population of males in Glina. The article you created is a content fork. --Griboski (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Serbian portal Politika Политика also for events from 12 May does not cite any burning of the church. This source claim that the crime in the Church will happen later.[17] (If evidence needs to be cited tell me). Also Đuro Aralica in book "Ustaški pokolji Srba u Glinskoj crkvi" (Ustasha massacres of Serbs in the Glina church(in Serbian))[18] claim that ("Према томе, утврђена су имена само 203 Србина жртве првог покоља у цркви у Глини ноћу 29/30. јула 1941. године..Therefore, the names for only 203 Serbs victims of the first massacre in Glina Church were determined at night 29/30. July 1941", page 73), and page 123, (Према томе, од оних 1038 Срба који су 4. августа 1941. године довезени из Вргинмоста, у српској православној цркви Рођења пресвете Богородице у Глини, ноћу 4/5 августа, заклано је 857, а осталих 181 убијена у шикари, Therefore, of those 1,038 Serbs who were brought on August 4, 1941 from Vrginmost, to the Serbian Orthodox Church in Glina, on the night of 4/5 August, 857 were slaughtered and the other 181 killed in the bush".) For events from 12-13 May Aralica only says that Serbs were killed in Prekopa and no churches are mentioned or burning with church fact, (page 79[19] Mikola22 (talk) 07:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

The fact is that Prekopa is a small village near Glina (now of less than 150 people), and this article is about the massacres that occurred at Glina and in its vicinity in 1941. There is absolutely no reason for a separate content fork Prekopa massacre article, even if it was a different massacre (which is extremely unlikely based on the material to hand now), then it should be rolled into this one. I agree with Griboski that Goldstein and other sources about the massacres and the Serb population of Glina itself makes it extremely unlikely that this is a separate massacre from the first "Glina" one described. Sources just vary on the method of the massacre. But let's use the better quality sources please, not news sites in particular. There has been plenty of work on these subjects by non-locally published historians. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:50, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

When I read the article, the context is that on 12 May there are 300-400 Serbs which were killed and burned in the church. That’s why we need context but also and additional article until that part of the article is corrected(if it can be done at all). This is my editorial opinion because quality sources which talk about this crime on 12 May does not mention burning and killing in the church. Serbian book "Ustasha massacres of Serbs in the Glina church" does not mention this fact. And this is my motive for creating a specific article about a specific crime. Mikola22 (talk) 08:16, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Okolnosti koje su dovele do tragedije 13. maja 1941. dobro su dokumentirane, iako ne onoliko koliko bi mogle i trebale biti. Poznato je da su žrtve bile zatočene u Kotarskom zatvoru u Glini, odakle su po noći prevožene kamionima u obližnje selo Prekopa, gdje su vršene masovne likvidacije.. The circumstances that led to the tragedy of May 13, 1941 are well documented, although not as much as they could and should be. It is known that the victims were detained in the prison in Glina, from where they were transported by trucks at night to the nearby village of Prekopa, where mass executions were carried out (page 52). Po završetku rata Samardžija je ipak dvaput dolazio u Glinu. Prvi put na poziv Zemaljske komisije za utvrđivanje zločina okupatora i njihovih pomagača Hrvatske, kada je 15. juna 1945. dao iskaz o svom hapšenju, zatvaranju i bijegu. Ovo tek ne-davno otkriveno svjedočenje ključnog i jedinog preživjelog aktera majskog pokolja– koje je pronađeno u Hrvatskom državnom arhivu u Zagrebu i koje se objavljuje u prilogu ovog eseja – objašnjava nam iz prve ruke mnoge dosad nepoznate činjenice i pruža dragocjeni uvid u posljednje dane, sate i trenutke uoči tragedije oko 400 glinskih Srba. Riječ je o prvorazrednom povijesnom izvoru..After the end of the war, Samardzija came to Glina twice. For the first time at the invitation of the National Commission for Determining the Crimes of the Occupiers and Their Helpers in Croatia, when on June 15, 1945, he testified about his arrest, imprisonment and escape. This recently discovered testimony of the key and only surviving actor in the May massacre - found in the Croatian State Archives in Zagreb and published in the appendix to this essay - explains in the first-hand many unknown facts and provides valuable insight into last days, hours and moments before the tragedy of about 400 Glina Serbs. It is a first-class historical source (page 53).

• In this source of Igor Mrkalj (published in the source from Serbian minoritie from Croatia[20]) we have and the original text ie statement of the only survivor of that massacre, Nikola Samardžija. In his statement, Nikola Samardžija does not mention the church or the Serbs who were burn down with the church, nor does Igor Mrkalj mentions that event. [21] Mikola22 (talk) 11:52, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

• The Ustaše then locked inside[21] and massacred[22] those who did not possess conversion certificates, including priest Bogdan Opačić.[20]

• Information from another source from Igor Mrkalj: "Riječ je o udovicama glinskih Srba, čiji su muževi ubijeni u masovnoj ustaškoj likvidaciji u noći s 12. na 13. svibnja 1941. u selu Prekopa nedaleko Gline, njih oko 400 (među njima i glinski paroh i proto, Bogdan Opačić)..These are the widows of Glina Serbs, whose husbands were killed in the mass Ustasha liquidation on the night of May 12-13, 1941 in the village of Prekopa near Glina, about 400 of them (among them and priest of Glina, Bogdan Opačić).
• In this article Bogdan Opačić was killed in the church which was burned, while in this source he is killed in Prekopa.
• This source also have information's about things which were taken from church, (2 September, 1941) "U kratkom dopisu “izvješćuje se da je u predmetu navedenoj crkvi oduzeto i to: 24 komada velikih crkvenih slika, jedan luster, jedan drveni manji bronzirani križ, četiri velike crkvene zastave, jedno nebo, tri komada litija, tri slike od oltarnika, jedan okvir od oltarskih vrata, jedna vrata od oltarnika, četrdeset komada manjih plehnatih slika, dva prazna velika drvena pobrončana kastla, isto tako dva mala drvena kastla, zatim tri velika crkvena zvona..In a short letter "it is reported that in the case of the said church the following were confiscated: 24 pieces of large church paintings, one chandelier, one wooden small bronze cross, four large church flags, three paintings from the altar, one frame of the altar door, one door of the altar, forty pieces of small tin paintings, two empty large wooden bronze castles, also two small wooden castles, then three large church bells". (Povijesni izvori o rušenju glinske Bogorodičine crkve, Historical sources on the demolition of the Church of the Mother of God in Glina, Igor Mrkalj (2019), portal of Serb minoritie from Croatia [22] Serbian Cultural Society "Prosvjeta" [23]) Mikola22 (talk) 17:18, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I tend to agree that the massacre did not occur in the church, based on the sources you provided. I'm just not sure that the best solution is to remove the information which says it did, but I don't have a strong opinion either way. You can't argue for keeping the Prekopa article because the events are contested and you want to highlight what you feel is the correct version though, it's still a content fork. That information belongs here. And I made sure to point out in the section the differing version as outlined by Goldstein. Again, it's the same major Glina massacre, just described differently. You shouldn't remove that. --Griboski (talk) 17:40, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

It's telling that Goldstein and Yeomans, both experts on the Ustasha, describe the first massacre in the same manner; in a pit in Prekopa (Yeomans says they were executed with knives, meat cleavers, mallets, hammers and scythes, not guns) and that this is also how the Croatian Serb community remembers the first massacre. It leads me to believe that the other sources which describe it occurring in a church got the information mixed up with the second massacre and this is just a case of misinformation that got spread. --Griboski (talk) 18:00, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

We cannot go by word of mouth of Croatian Serb communities though their stories are valued. We must go by the books. If Yeomans says these were the executions and the grotesque tool methods used that it is valid. Or if these were executions via firing squad. Does Goldstein confirm hands on cutting of throats and bashing of victims in the Glina massacres? Are these documented or first hand interviews done by him? Primary could be an issue. I wouldn’t be surprised as the Ustashe country side gangs were monsters terrorizing Serb communities. Much like the Rawanda genocide. Perhaps @Peacemaker67: can chime in as he has read all these WWII Balkans related books and more.

Also side note, odd that Glina and Glina Massacres, both articles, are being updated with this content right as Glina experienced one of the biggest and damaging via lives lost, injuries and those left homeless in the past weeks? This is very interestingly sudden. I mean this in general. OyMosby (talk) 18:45, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Goldstein is very detailed, comprehensive and relatively recent, isn't primary but examines primary sources, and says that the best accounts (which he has used in his book) are in Đuro Roksandić, Ustaški zločini u glinskom kotaru od 1941. do 1945. godine, Glinski kraj kroz stoljeća, Glina 1988., pp. 282–303, the article Glina 13 May 1941—U povodu 60. godišnjice ustaškog zločina in Ljetopis Vol.6, 2001, and he also supplements these sources with the account of the Ustasha Juraj Rebok, although he is careful to say that Rebok tries to minimise his personal responsibility and down play the number of victims, while confirming the basic facts of the crimes. Throughout he says that some details are subject to wild claims and mentions the ranges of numbers of victims, he has settled on the most likely aspects of the events of the massacres, including discussing them when arriving at his version of the numbers. Goldstein seems to be a solid foundation on which to build the article, and I am sure that his version of events has support among other reliable sources (although some clearly differ). The important thing here is that a source that varies from Goldstein, but only mentions the massacres in passing, cannot be given the same weight as Goldstein's detailed description and narrative. I have a copy if anyone wants to check anything. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:51, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Precisely. Agree 100% in your response. OyMosby (talk) 08:10, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

"Glinski kraj kroz stoljeća" is quoted by Vladimir Žerjavić in "Obsession and Megalomania over Jasenovac and Bleiburg" (pages 200 and 255) regarding the numbers of victims in the Glina region. According to that source, there were a total of 10,699 people that died during the war in the pre-war Glina district (which included a much wider area than the later or modern municipality of Glina). The list doesn't take into account the victims of Partisans and those that died as Axis soldiers. 8,366 were civilian victims, of whom 1,700 died of typhoid. 2,333 died in combat as Partisans. The ethnic composition was 10,259 Serbs, 326 Croats, and 11 others.

I'm writing this because of this sentence in the article: "From an estimated 300,000 Croatian Serbs that were murdered by the Ustaše from 1941 to 1945,[15] more than 18,000 were from Glina at its surroundings.[36]" First, it is clear that Cox (source number 15) is referring to the NDH when writing "Croatia", and according to Žerjavić this number includes those that died not only from the Ustaše. After all, there were many German actions in the Glina region as well, such as that of the 11th SS Division Nordland. Second, the 18,000 number is actually a contemporary Italian report form July 1941, and not for the entire war (see the Rodogno ref). Tezwoo (talk) 23:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)