Talk:Georgios Kountouriotis

Mistake in edit summary

My mistake. The use of the Greek alphabet was mentioned already (diff). Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:28, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Name in Arvanitika

@Botushali: when Ahmet Q. added information about use of his native dialect, I think that the name which was used by Kountouriotis himself corresponds directly to Jorgj Kundurioti.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:45, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

True. Jorgj or Jorgji. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 18:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Care to provide citation apart from personal thought? Also the Hydriot idiom of Arvanitika never used Jorgj/Jorgji as a name corresponding to Georgios.Alexikoua (talk) 20:46, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Why? So you can dismiss it for being an old 1867 source? Eventhough it would be contemporary witnessed by the spanish authors themselves? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 00:27, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

By simply hypothetizing that his name correspont to a supposed Arvanitika form won't make the job but as you admit you need evidence for that.Alexikoua (talk) 02:13, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi everyone. @Maleschreiber, could you perhaps point out the edit you are talking about? Botushali (talk) 04:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

He doesn't sign his name in the correspondence discussed by Jochalas, but Ioannis Orlandos in his reply calls him Γιωργ βγα [George brother] which Jochalas transliterates as Jorgh vgha. The entries of the Albanian Encyclopedic Dictionay (1985) which pertain to him use the spelling Jorgji Kundurioti.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Γιωργ βγα correct, and I wonder why the Arvanitic alphabet needs to be replaced with the modern Albanian one? Anachronism and ahistorical writing forms falls into wp:OR. Imagine adding in ancient and medieval Greek names their modern equivalents instead. That's non-productive editting.Alexikoua (talk) 01:43, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Arvanitika is written in the Greek alphabet. The modern Albanian version of his name written in Latin script is anachronistic and irrelevant. Khirurg (talk) 03:04, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

For the record I have no problem whatsoever to add his name in Arvanitika to the infobox, provided it is properly spelled in the Arvanitic script. Khirurg (talk) 03:25, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Because every name in non latin letters gets transliterated in latin in en.wiki. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 16:31, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Not for the infobox. Khirurg (talk) 02:21, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Where is this written? Do you always invent new stuff? Why is the rest transliterated then? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 05:55, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I honestly can't understand why Royal Heritage Alb claims that "every name in non latin letters gets transliterated in latin in en.wiki" and in which articles he sees that "the rest [of native names not written in Latin script] is transliterated".

I have not done an exhaustive research in other wikipedia articles, as it seems that s/he might have in order to make claims about "every name [...] in en.wiki", but in the infoboxes of articles of Kountouriotis's successors in the office of Greek Prime Minister, be it his immediate successor (Konstantinos Kanaris) or distant (Eleftherios Venizelos or Alexis Tsipras and Kyriakos Mitsotakis), the field "native name" is not filled with the Prime Minister's name transliterated using the Latin alphabet, but written using the Greek alphabet that was or is used to write his name in the Greek language. It is no different in Israeli PMs, like Golda Meir or Shimon Peres or Benjamin Netanyahu -- the native name in Hebrew, in the field "native name" is written using the Hebrew script.

In fact, even in this very article, the name of Kountouriotis in Greek in the very same field that this discussion concerns is not transliterated, but written using the Greek script (i.e. Γεώργιος Κουντουριώτης).

Also, I have a question about one of the two sources that have been added by RoyalHeritageAlb as way of reference to the supposed transliteration of Koundouriotis's Arvanitic name in Latin script. I am checking one of the two (Insurrección y regeneración de la Grecia from 1867) via its digitized version available on Google books and in p. 122 I can only find a reference to "El presidente Jorge Konturiotis". This is obviously a translation of the Greek name in Spanish, not a transliteration of any Arvanitic name. Am I missing something? Is there another reference in the same page or another page that I have not located? If not, I do not see how this source is relevant to Koundouriotis's Arvanitic name at all. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 07:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

It's the same situation across multiple articles, including Markos Botsaris, Kitsos Tzavellas, Andreas Miaoulis, Notis Botsaris and others. They just grab any source they can find from google and stick in there and that's that. Khirurg (talk) 15:35, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Under the light of my previous comment and the lack of response thereto -until now at least- by either the editor that introduced the Spanish source to the infobox or other editors that reinstated it (see here and here), I am wondering whether it would be perhaps possible for someone among these editors -or anyone else who might be in a position and willing to help- to oblige by providing a full quote of the other source's relevant passage that includes Koundouriotis's name in the Arvanitic dialect of Albanian (that is: Buda, Aleks (1985), Fjalor enciklopedik shqiptar, (Tiranë: Akademia e shkencave RPSSH), p. 1231) along with the evidentiary evidence that supports the name's rendering, which, having read Maleschreiber's comment above, I understand is different from the one provided by Jochalas, who takes into account Orlandos's letter(s) to Koundouriotis. Thanks in advance, Ashmedai 119 (talk) 07:54, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

PS. This might have escaped the notice of the users concerned that I referred to in my last message above, so tagging user:RoyalHeritageAlb, user:Botushali and user:Alltan and in addition user:Maleschreiber, who referred to the entry in question in the discussion above, in case any of them would like to be of help. Thanks, Ashmedai 119 (talk) 04:27, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

You’ve written a lot of text, and in all honesty I do not care enough about this topic to go through all of it. What is it exactly that you are asking? Botushali (talk) 04:48, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

@Botushali: Friendly advice: If you don't care enough about this topic it's time you take a break. Don't edit war about presenting non-historical name forms as 'common names'.Alexikoua (talk) 05:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

@Alexikoua I haven’t been involved in this article for a while. Nobody wants advice from you, because you never seem to be correct. Botushali (talk) 07:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Since Arvanitika is a Dialect of Albanian. The Albanian name is enough. Just like we dont separate other names in their proper dialects. The same with Lefter Talo an Albanian Partisan of greek ethnicity users added the name in Modern Greek letters and version. Not the Dropull dialect of Greqisht (Greek language in Albania, like Arvanitika stands for Albanian in Greek) which is written in latin letters. So this is reciprocity. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 23:40, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

The problematic issue is that the specific form is ahistorical in terms of 19th century. If Talo was a medieval or ancient Greek figure the Greek name form of the corespondent era would have been used instead. Since the modern Greek script was in used when Talo lived there is no issue to use that. On the other hand Kountouriotis' era and the modern Albanian script don't coincide historically. Imagine if Kountouriotis still lived and saw that script: it would appear like Chinese to him.Alexikoua (talk) 06:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Georgios Kountouriotis was an ethnic Albanian from the Arvanite community. His native name was in Albanian and should therefore obviously be mentioned. It goes without saying that the Albanian language existed long before the creation of the Albanian alphabet, and as far as I know, there is no guideline on Wikipedia that suggests that native names of figures should not be mentioned only because the language in question didn't have a standardized alphabet just a few decades after the death of said figures. The Albanian language in the 19th century and early 20th century was the same modern language, your comparaison with the difference between medieval and modern Greek is therefore rather laughable. Imagine if Kountouriotis was alive today and saw that some editors tried rather desperately to remove his native Albanian name, he would feel insulted. Nishjan (talk) 07:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

So you suggest not mentioning the native name at all? What about the old norse names? Should they be written in old norse runic? The Latin scrips was also used in Kountouriotis times. Just not in greece. Like the greek one was not in Albania during Talo's time. I think the only reason is that you probably simply dont want the albanian variant to be here. Talo's Greek name is in the article so should Koundouriotis's Albanian name. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 18:49, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Since some editors have provided completely inaccurate arguments, perhaps this scholarly comment might shed some light on the relevant historical context, Roderick Beaton (2019) Greece: Biography of a Modern Nation: "Most of this tonnage, we now know, was Ottoman shipping. Owners registered their vessels and paid for the protection of the Ottoman state, and they flew the Ottoman flag. Otto-man records show that most of the owners were Orthodox Christians. Records held in western ports reveal that the captains were 'Greek'.7 [...] In precisely what sense these mer-chants and crews were 'Greek' at this time is debatable: most of the inhabitants of Hydra and Spetses spoke Albanian as their mother tongue, but now began to add Greek endings to their family names. Since their own language had no written form, all their records were kept in Greek, which was also the language of their Church." – Βατο (talk) 20:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Obviously most inhabitants doesn't mean all inhabitants. I wonder why this is related to add an ahistorical script to this person, but thank you for this piece of information.Alexikoua (talk) 01:16, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

"Obviously most inhabitants doesn't mean all inhabitants" irrelevant comment, the quote is about to clarify the relevant historical context of Albanian-speakers, among whom the subject of this article. Alexikoua's arguments are fallacious and are not based on Wikipedia policies or guidelines. The native names have not to be in a contemporary native attested script, this is English Wikipedia, the names in native languages have to be a transiterated form into the Latin script, and if some reliable sources exist using the native name in a Latin script that clearly reflects in some way the native pronunciation of the name, then it can be added. Nevertheless I am not asking to add the native name here, and I am not even interested in the subject of this article, but I wanted to make some clarifications. Also, in this case it is difficult to know how the person used to be called in his native tongue (Alb.: jorg, jorgj, gjorgj gjergj, etc.), but it is certain that his native surname was Kundurioti. – Βατο (talk) 07:35, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Yet again ahistorical spellings (and speculations) which are not related to this article. But I really wonder why you insist on the 'Kunturioti' form since its spelled excactly the same as 'Kountourioti'. That's really weird. That spelling is already there. It won't make a diferrence to an English speaker.Alexikoua (talk) 00:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Βατο, Beaton is not properly speaking a historian, which goes a long way to explaining why he omits mentioning that by the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century the Arvanites of the islands were already beginning to give ancient Greek names to their ships, which signifies their adherence to the nascent Greek national movement. You claim that "this is English Wikipedia, the names in native languages have to be a transiterated form into the Latin script". This is false. As I wrote in a previous comment of mine, this is definitely not the case with Greek and Hebrew native names that I checked -- it's actually the opposite, the native name is *not* transliterated into Latin script. You also claim that "in this case it is difficult to know how the person used to be called in his native tongue". How so? There is a primary source (the one Maleschreiber has referred to) that preserves his native name in Arvanitic as Γιωργ. Are there any other primary sources that preserve a somehow different name?

Botushali and RoyalHeritageAlb, thank you for responding. You have added or readded two sources in support of stating Koundouriotis's native name as "Jorgji Kundurioti" in the article's infobox. As requested in my previous message, could you please "provid[e] a full quote of the [...] relevant passage[s of the two sources] that includ[e] Koundouriotis's name in the Arvanitic dialect of Albanian [...] along with the evidentiary evidence that supports" it? Thank you both in advance. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 15:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

this is definitely not the case with Greek and Hebrew native names that I checked this argument is irrelevant here, we are talking about Albanian native names. As for Γιωργ, it is of little value if we do not know the actual pronunciation in his native Albanian language: Γιωργ could be Albanian Giorg, Jorg, Jorgj, Giorgj, Gjorgj. English language readers of this encyclopaedia actually are not interested in a name written with a script that can't be read by them, especially in this case when there is no possibility to read the name Γιωργ correctly according to the associated IPA, in this case Help:IPA/Albanian. To clarify the actual Albanian name with unanbiguous pronunciation, reliable secondary sources are needed. – Βατο (talk) 16:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The argument to use an ahistorical script certainly created several issues and problems apart from wp:OR & POV. We should use Help:IPA/Greek since the Arvanites used always the Greek script especially in the homeland of the subject. On the other hand Help:IPA/Albanian we need to rely on speculations.Alexikoua (talk) 04:54, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Βατο, you write that "To clarify the actual Albanian name with unanbiguous pronunciation, reliable secondary sources are needed". Isn't Jochalas's publication, that Maleschreiber referred to before, such a reliable source? After providing the letter "con caratteri greci, nel dialetto caratteristico albanese di Idra" (p. 70), where tha name is written down as "Γιωργ" ("Γιωργ βγα· Τι σκρούαγτα εδέ νι γιέτρι χέρι περ κιτί τζερδ νάνι παστάγ·") [note: I don't know why, but Jochalas omits the accents and the exclamation mark that are clearly used, as seen in the image of ibid., p. 78.], Jochalas continues with a "Trascrizione fonetica della parte arvanita della lettera nell’ alfabeto albanese di oggi" in which "Γιώργ" is transcribed as "Jorgh" ("Jorgh vgha; Ti shkrúaghta edhé një jétrë hére për këtƀ çë erdh nàni pastàgh. [...]"). How is that ambiguous? Does "Jorgh" have many pronunciations "nell' alfabeto albanese di oggi"?

You also write that "English language readers of this encyclopaedia actually are not interested in a name written with a script that can't be read by them". I must insist that this is absolutely not the case with names written using the Greek script in all the articles of Koundouriotis's successors as Greek PMs. What you claim goes against what seems to be nothing less than established practice as far as non-Latin scripts are concerned, i.e. the Hebrew and the Greek alphabets. In this very infobox, Koundouriotis's native name in Greek is also written using the Greek alphabet in which it was written in the Greek language. What is the reason for which you think that English-language readers of this encyclopedia are taken to be interested in name written with a script that can't be read by them in all Greek names written with the Greek alphabet and not in an Arvanitic name written with the Greek alphabet? Nonetheless, I agree that, following scholarly practice, as indicated by Jochalas's publication, after writing down Koundouriotis's native name a note could and should also state its transciption u2sing the "alfabeto albanese di oggi" and a rendering of its phonetic value in accordance with contemporary scholarly practices concerning Arvanitika, about which I admit I am not very knowledgeable. That would mean adding to the infobox's field "native name" the following:

Γιώργ Κουντουριότι (Arvanitika) <note> Transcription in modern Albanian alphabet: Jorgh Kundurioti, see: Jochalas 2020, p. 70-1, IPA: [...].</note>. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 06:04, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Jorgh is not an unambiguous form in modern Albanian script, how can it be written with IPA signs? As I already stated, for his native Albanian name, Γιώργ is of little value if the proper pronunciation is unknown. Alexikoua's arguments, as always, are not productive. We don't have to rely on speculations for unambiguous names like Marko Boçari and Kiço Xhavella, which are based on current bibliography. – Βατο (talk) 07:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Βατο, thank you for replying. I am sorry, but I don't get it. Isn't Jochalas's publication part of the "current bibliography"? What is ambiguous about Jorgh? Are there publications other than Jochalas's that offer a different rendering of the Arvanitic script in the modern Albanian writing system on the basis of this or other linguistic evidence? I asked users to provide secondary sources other the one that Maleschreiber mentioned and there has been no response till now.

For what it's worth, my knowledge of standardized Albanian is *very* limited, but I have some personal acquaintance with Arvanitika as currently spoken and the form of the name Georgios that I have heard is the one Jochalas provides. On a side note, it happens that this exact version of the name can be heard in an Arvanitic song from Viotia about another, rather more unfortunate, Γιώργ (see here). Ashmedai 119 (talk) 08:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Ashmedai, thanks, Moraitis' song seems to pronounce it as Jorgj, Albanian pronunciation: [ˈjoɾɟ], which is the exact form reported by the Albanian source above for the name of the subject of this article (Buda (1985) Fjalor enciklopedik shqiptar mentions Kundurioti Jorgji, where Jorgji [ˈjoɾɟi] is just the Albanian definite form) while Jorgh read/pronounced in Albanian would be [ˈjoɾgh], which as far as I know is not used in any Albanian dialect. – Βατο (talk) 10:56, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Βατο, thanks for the reply. I was under the impression, which -judging by what you write- must have been erroneous, that the transliteration "Jorgh" corresponded to the sound of the name as I am personally familiar with from Central Greece and as recorded in the folk song from Mavrommati, collected and interpreted by Moraitis, that I referred to in my last message. May I add that Yochalas is making a conscious choice in opting for the transliteration of Γιώργ as Jorgh. He writes, for example, (p. 70) that "La lingua di Idra è molto evidente nella lettera di Orlandos giá con la prima parola del testo: βγα (vgha) invece di quella comune in arvanitica vëlla, con la trasformazione di ll in γ (gh)." He also notes (p. 77): "Interessanti sono le forme verbali alla terza persona del singolare nell’imperfetto forma attiva vegh (invece di vej), thegh (invece di thej), dogh ( invece di doj). Strana è la forma determinata nel nominativo singolare del nome maschile βγαγ (vghagh) invece di vghai che dá il Cupitoris." My -as I said earlier- very limited knowledge of standard Albanian makes me wonder: is Yochalas's choice meaningless? Is he perhaps transliterating in this way in order to render a feature of the Arvanitic peculiar to the island of Hydra -- and different from the versions of Roumeli? It seems to me, based on what I just quoted, plausible that just like, per Yochalas, "the definite form of the nominative singular of the masculine name vghagh" substitutes "vghai", the Hydriot variant "Jorgh" corresponds to the more common "Jorgj[i]". Perhaps Maleschreiber, also an Albanian speaker and someone with access to Yochalas's article, if I understand correctly, could weigh in the matter in a manner profitable for those of us participating in this discussion? I would also greatly if you could please provide the full quote from the Albanian source that you mentioned along with the evidentiary basis on which this trasliteration is based. I would like to conclude by adding that if both sources (Yochalas and Buda[?]) are reliable and are making equally valid, but different transliteration choices of Γιώργ, I wouldn't in principle be opposed to adding both those transliterations in the note that I proposed above. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• @Ashmedai 119:@Βατο: The pronunciation by Moraitis might not be very relevant as there are certain subtle difference between Arvanite subdialects. Moraitis sings in Boeotian Arvanitika. /gh/ signifies [ɣ̞] (voiced velar fricative) which in Greek is written as /γ/. Jochalas (2020): La lingua di Idra è molto evidente nella lettera di Orlandos giá con la prima parola del testo: βγα (vgha) invece di quella comune in arvanitica vëlla, con la trasformazione di ll in γ (gh).. This statement is repeated in Jochalas (2006): vghá - i , αρσ . , για το κοινό στα Αρβαν . vlla και vellá με τροπή του ΙΙ σε γ ( gh ) . ο αδελφός Vghái im vdigi Ο αδελφός μου πέθανε where the pronunciation of [ɟ] (voiced palatal plosive) is marked as /gj/ while [ɣ̞] is marked as /gh/ e.g. ghonjë < Greek γωνία. Pronunciation of Greek variants of names based on their Greek phonology is not uncommon in Arvanitika as it is not uncommon for any language to use the pronunciation of the donor language when it is in close contact with it e.g. Pontic Greek dialects pronounce Turkish variants of names based on Turkish phonology and Transylvanian Romanian dialects pronounce Hungarian variants of names based on Hungarian phonology even when they adopt them as their own. Arvanitika has also developed [ɣ̞] as a development of [glj] and in the definite form, the indefinite form [ˈjoɾgh] is pronounced as [ˈjoɾɟi] as [ɣ̞] "drops" to [ɟ] (Hydra and other "Aegean" dialects) or as Jochalas explains in a study about Arvanitika in Andros it may "rise" to the position of [ʝ] (voiced palatal fricative). In this case, Jochalas has written the indefinite form as Jorgh and the definite one as Jorji.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Maleschreiber, for your response, valuable for those not well-versed in modern Albanian. A few questions of mine: you write that "In this case, Jochalas has written the indefinite form as Jorgh and the definite one as Jorji. Does "in this case" signify the case of Andros or the case of Koundouriotis? Also, do you think it would make more sense, given the phonological similarities of Greek and Arvanitika, the latter being influenced by the former, to use the phonetic system that corresponds to Greek or not? Be that as it may, what would you propose, based on what you 've written on Yochalas's observations on the peculiarities of Hydriot Arvanitika for the transliteration of Γιώργ to a Latin script-? Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you've quoted in your message seems to me to confirm that Γιώργ should indeed be transliterated as "Jorgh", accompanied by an appropriate explanatory note on the name's phonetic value. Thank you in advance, Ashmedai 119 (talk) 05:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ashmedai 119: Again, apologies for the long delay of my reply. Jorgh/Jorji refers to Andros. Yes, it is certain that the forms Jorgh/Jorji are adaptations influenced by the Aegean Greek variants. As such, Jorgh would be a correct Latin transliteration. I don't know if readers would benefit by a note about phonology since it would require them to understand the basics of what is being discussed but if you consider it informative, I won't object its addition.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:56, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Do you think it would be helpful to add the name's pronunciation using IPA signs? Ashmedai 119 (talk) 07:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Name in Arvanitika (again)

User:Ashmedai 119 The source you quoted refers to the private correspondence of Kountouriotis. As Prime Minister, he was neither referred to nor signed as Γιώργ Κουντουριότι . If the reference to the name must remain, let it be placed elsewhere with the appropriate explanation. As it stands now, it is misinformed - the prime minister had one (Greek) nationality, not two.

By your logic should the Jewish pronunciation of the name be written in the infoboxes of Jewish people? Most jews spoke yiddish in every day life, but nowhere is mentioned in the infobox the native name. D.S. Lioness (talk) 18:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

D.S. Lioness, there is nobody claiming that Kunduriotis had two nationalities. What is being argued is that, as stated in the article, he was regularly using the Arvanitic/Albanian language to communicate and that this renders Arvanitic Albanian, along with Greek, his "own language". Hence, his name should be stated both in Greek and in Arvanitic Albanian in the field "native name" of the infobox, taking into account the designated use of the parameter "native name" of the infobox (as stated here). As far as the comparison with Jewish Yiddish speakers is concerned, perhaps you want to check the infobox of the article on e.g. Theodor Herzl. Cheers, Ashmedai 119 (talk)

User:Ashmedai 119 Theodor Herzl's article is the exemption to the rule. Anyway...