Talk:Gender equality/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Are there older, non-western examples of historical gender equality?

The content of the “history” section of this article is an incredibly Eurocentric view of the history of “gender equality”. Considering the existence of the Iroquois, an egalitarian society with empowered women that clearly predated the Shakers mentioned in this article — a society called “savage” by the English settlers for having just that feature — I find it disturbing that this article is basically giving the inherently patriarchal Western civilization credit for inventing the idea of gender equality. I’m really unconvinced that there aren’t plenty of examples of gender equality throughout world history outside the West and I think much more research should be done to verify that.

192.249.3.220 (talk) 00:14, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

How about equality for men?

There is nothing in this article about the ways in which men are disadvantaged. In the UK, for example, men are more likely to suffer homelessness, unemployment, industrial accident, death in the workplace, or to commit suicide. They are less likely to complete a degree course. There is a very vocal campaign to make misogyny a hate crime, but no corresponding clamour re misandry, hatred of men. Crawiki (talk) 21:32, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT EvergreenFir (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Read misandry. Crawiki (talk) 21:40, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

   Looking at List of countries by life expectancy there  appears to be but one country, Swaziland, where men outlive women. Given the gender equality ideals put forward in the lead, one wonders if any progress is being made to  close this gap?   Crawiki (talk) 21:50, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Further point. In the UK when a public position falls vacant, the cry goes up, 'it's time the job went to a woman'. Similar calls were heard when Clinton ran for prez. This of course is the antithesis of gender equality, whose core principle is to judge people by their intelligence, ability, experience and probity, rather than the contents of their underwear. Crawiki (talk) 12:27, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Gender Stereotype

Hi, I added little more information about why women get discriminated at workplace under Gender Stereotype section. Qhdud12 (talk) 22:40, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

This page does not demonstrate gender equality

While there are a few references to men's disadvantages, the general tone of this page assumes that women are almost universally victims. I would like the opportunity to add material to help create a balance.The Equalogist (talk) 14:13, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

THE ARTICLE IS EXCLUSIONARY OF TRANS EXPERIENCES

The article reflects an essentialist and false binary viewpoint which marginalise or even deny the existence and experiences of transgender people. I strongly suggest that the NPOV shall remain until this egregious error of perspective is addressed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aristotele1982 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@Aristotele1982: This article has at least a short section that describes violence against trans women, though the article still doesn't mention transgender rights. Jarble (talk) 15:45, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

@Aristotele1982: This is a volunteer project. If you find that there is missing information in an article, then rather than SHOUT OUT YOUR COMPLAINT ABOUT IT, why don't you instead take the time to improve it by making it more inclusive? The way to do that, is to start with some Reliable sources from your library or on line, read up on the type of material you think is missing in the article, summarize it entirely in your own words, write citations for the material based on your sources (see Help:Footnotes) and then add that content to the article? Just make sure your added content is well-sourced, and footnoted properly. It's just that easy. Mathglot (talk) 10:34, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Change of tag

As suggested, I changed the Wiki-tag from "contested neutrality" to "weight" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aristotele1982 (talk • contribs) 11:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Is formal equality the same term or should it have its own article?

There's a Draft:Formal equality in the AFC queue. Please discuss whether this should be redirected/merged to here or spun-off as a separate article. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Another option is to make formal equality a disambiguation for

• Equality (which has its own disambiguation page)
• Formal equivalence, in text translations
• Formal equivalence checking, in electronic design automation
• Gender equality
• Formal equality of opportunity, see Equal opportunity
• Formal equality, a law approach that was later opposed by Substantive equality

Any thoughts? AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:27, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Adding a men's rights section concerning legal abortion

I have been conducting a lot of research regarding a man's ability to legally withdraw from the responsibilities of having a child, otherwise known as "paper abortion" or "legal abortion". A contribution regarding men's rights and responsibilities surrounding reproductive rights would help to achieve an equal gender representation of this topic. This contribution would also work to correct the lack of men's and transgender/ non-binary perspectives. Please feel free to take a look at the resources I intend to use on my sandbox page.

Any thoughts are welcome! — Preceding unsigned comment added by KayWine (talk • contribs) 14:31, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

This article is restricted to issues that are recognized internationally, by conventions, and international bodies, as pertinent issues, not to every concern that men's rights activists may have. "Paper abortion" is not recognized as such, quite on the contrary, international law states that parents are responsible to support their children, which is a fundamental right of the child. And we don't have to achieve "equal gender representation of this topic" (or on any other topic). We go with what reliable sources say. That's why we don't give "equal gender representation" to male circumcision and female genital mutilation in articles regarding gender equality. This last issue has been discussed and explained on many talk pages. 2A02:2F01:52FF:FFFF:0:0:54E8:CD8F (talk) 06:55, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

I understand that the concept of paper abortion is theoretical, and is not practiced within modern law. However, this article has been flagged as lacking the perspective of men and transgender/non-binary people. This being said, even though paper abortion may be a theoretical process, this contribution helps to create an equal representation of all genders within this article. Additionally, all the resources I have used are peer-reviewed journals from established libraries and institutions. KayWine (talk) 13:41, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I removed the section. There is no consensus for adding such a section. See WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE. 123username (talk) 12:53, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I understand your arguments. Although I wished we could have communicated more to reach a consensus, I have decided to talk with the editors of another article on the addition of this contribution to the Men's rights article. KayWine (talk) 00:15, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Draft:Hermeneutics of feminism in Islam

Hi,

I came across this promising Draft:Hermeneutics of feminism in Islam (relating to women's rights) and myself supported the same editorially too. IMO since topic potential is vast many Reliable sources on Google scholar seem to be available hence the article needs more editorial hands for some more update and expansion along with appropriate references.

Update and expansion help will be welcome.

Thanks and regards

Bookku (talk) 14:57, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

History

I feel like the History section of this article needs to be greatly expanded and probably warrants its own page since it's such a big and international topic. 80.44.2.77 (talk) 11:57, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Remove the fringe propaganda in the lead

The sentence, "As of 2017, the global movement for gender equality has not incorporated the proposition of genders besides women and men, or gender identities outside of the gender binary," should be removed from the introduction of the article per WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE because it is fringe gender ideology propaganda that denies science and falsely claims that there are more than two genders.

"denies science"? Hm... I think you might mean sex assignment at birth? EvergreenFir (talk) 03:25, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Gender being redefined at law

Gender activists wishing to re-define gender based on self-identification are seeking to redefine gender at law and change anti-discrimination laws originally drafted to include a binary definition of gender (i.e. based on biological sex). An example is a positive discrimination law in the Scotland designed to increase female representation on Boards of public bodies, see this article in The Times https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/definition-of-woman-will-include-trans-people-to-increase-equality-h62g50swc?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&fbclid=IwAR0skSpRASG2niCwbpCvThYAYX88XS96Fyey6Mz9t37WbG2mVh6Hxv8a4tg#Echobox=1616570680 — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeistAus (talk • contribs) 23:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

regarding lack of masculism

This article, although even being part of the series of masculism too, only has topics focusing on women, I am not requesting that there be less articles relating to inequality in which women have less rights than men, but that there are atleast some topic regarding inequalities where men have less rights, as this article is currently acting as inequalities in patriarchy, instead of gender inequalities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.126.131.65 (talk) 19:28, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this. I found this article to be grossly ideological rather than fact-based with a total emphasis on the perceived oppression of women from within the feminist community when it needs to provide a more nuanced and objective analysis on the ways in which both sexes are advantaged and burdened in different societies across the world. Einlanzer0 (talk) 18:49, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

You're going to need to be much more specific. Saying 'this article is biased' is all well and good, but if you aren't specific about content you want to add, and sources you think we should use, this proposal isn't going to go anywhere. GirthSummit _(blether) 19:18, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

I'll give one example: there is no mention of men getting raped, despite a whole article discussing the subject. It would be worth discussing the taboo regarding the issue (which applies even in Western countries). 118.208.172.85 (talk) 11:52, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Okay, now your next step is to write up a section, using reliable sources. You could be WP:BOLD and edit it into the article, or propose it here. If you do the former, do not edit war over it if you get reverted, but start a discussion here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:10, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Reproductive equality

I believe that section should start with... "True reproductive equality is impossible due to the scarcity of surrogacy versus sperm." then argue the importance of bodily autonomy, otherwise the context might end up lost on a reader who knows nothing about the issues.

So, I propose:

"True reproductive equality is impossible due to the scarcity of surrogacy versus sperm. The importance of women having the right and possibility to have control over their body, reproduction decisions, and sexuality, and the need for gender equality in order to achieve these goals are recognized as crucial by the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing and the UN International Conference on Population and Development Program of Action."

2600:1700:8B85:110:C75D:4181:ED6C:19BA (talk) 10:09, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea what section you want to change. Could you be a bit clearer in that? The Banner talk 11:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

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Debate

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This house believes that men and women must be treated equally 77.246.52.48 (talk) 16:35, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Foot binding in China is historical and should be moved to the History section

Moving foot binding in China to the history section should be done since it is not practiced in China. The last women subject to foot binding were born more than 70 years ago per 107.197.56.204 (talk) 01:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Equal ease of access to resources and opportunities regardless of gender

Content of Gender Equality should follow the initial line of the page "Gender equality, also known as sexual equality or equality of the sexes, is the state of equal ease of access to resources and opportunities regardless of gender, including economic participation and decision-making; and the state of valuing different behaviors, aspirations and needs equally, regardless of gender.".

It should follow the first line definition and provide less unbalanced coverage. 95 percent focuses on women, trans equality gets a token mention, issues facing men are not even mentioned other than a checkbox "affects men and women together".

In good faith, Wikipedia is able to give more balanced coverage to these topics. 107.197.56.204 (talk) 01:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

For example, Russia, Ukraine, South Korea and a lot more countries affecting hundreds of millions of men, have forced labor through military conscription of only one gender - men. Excluding men by gender alone from college, excludes them from economic opportunities while it benefits women who can finish college two years ahead of men and get two years of career advancement ahead of men. 107.197.56.204 (talk) 01:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

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Gendered arrangements of work and care to be expanded?

Should the 'Gendered arrangements of work and care' section be expanded, to include other professions that women are underrepresented in? Currently it reads as overly focused on position-of-power roles like STEM fields and parliament, but doesn't mention accessibility issues to jobs including bricklaying, underwater welding, mining, defence, construction, train/bus driving etc. In order to reflect a wholistic inclusion across all types of work for men and women. 203.46.132.214 (talk) 03:55, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

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