Talk:Gae Aulenti/GA1

GA Review

Failed for inactivity. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Vera.Grace (talk · contribs) 11:49, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 13:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I'll review this over the next few days. Looks like a really interesting topic, and I can already see you've done a lot of great work to improve it. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks once again for looking at it. :-) Vera.Grace (talk) 22:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Starting this off now. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prose and content

Starting off, you should just make the introduction part of the lede. MOS:LEADLENGTH states Few well-written leads will be shorter than about 100 words and the introduction would serve this purpose well. You can then cut out the second sentence Aulenti was one of the prominent female architects in post-war Italy.

Understood and done.

modern movement is there a reason you call it modern movement instead of modernism?

Only that it seemed to be more frequently used in the references. Done.

I'll have a look at the lede again after you merge the introduction and avoid doubling up information.

OK

Is there a reason the infobox uses MMDDYYYY while the article body uses DDMMYYYY?

No. Being Austrlian I naturally use ddmmyyyy but I did forgot to change the box. Done.

She was named "Gaetana Emilia" This was her surname? Or her middle name?

Yes, I found two references to her middle name, one being emilia and one being amelia. I could not figure out how to change the name in bold in the lead first sentence but I have added it to the info box. should I leave it out?

Aldo Aulenti and Zanotta comma after these

Done

The sentences are quite stubby, and would be made more readable by adding conjunctions. An example of two sentences that could be joined is Her father, Aldo Aulenti was an accountant. Her mother was a school teacher.

Done and checking for this throughout.

in the midst of this traditionally male-dominated industry I would cut this, unless it was directly being commented on.

Done

Gloss Olivetti

Not sure what this means.

Buenos Aires ~~respectively~~

Done

This was the beginning of the design Pipistrello lamp I don't understand what this means, could you clarify? It also seems at odds with the caption Pipstrello lamp designed for Martinelli Luce (1965)

I understood it was designed in '65 but it was produced for general sale at a later time - I could not find exactly when. So you are right it doesn't really make sense.

Done.

collaboration -> collaborating

Done.

Aulenti was one of the Italian designers who produced designs active voice would make this more clear

Done.

A lot of the Industrial Design section seems to follow WP:PROSELINE. The article's writing would be improved by grouping sentences into paragraphs, and relying less on a "In YYYY, Aulenti..."

Understood and done.

to design an iconic watch attribute

Done

The Gare d'Orsay (Orsay railway station) was built in 1900 in the neo-classical style. this seems at odds with our page, which for instance includes the line about Beaux-Arts architecture Together, these buildings, drawing upon Renaissance, Gothic and Romanesque and other non-classical styles, broke the monopoly of neoclassical architecture in Paris.

Changed to beaux-arts.

was selected winner of -> won

Done.

have a role in both the architectural plan and the understanding of the vision and requirements of the curators Can you clarify this? It isn't clear what the second half is saying.

Done.

In her book, Creating the Musée d'Orsay: The Politics of Culture in France (1998), Andrea Schneider quotes Aulenti you don't have to attribute this. You can just give the quote.

Done.

Aulenti's design invites visitors' movement along the long axis of the building as though it were a nave with galleries on either side. It is beautifully written, but perhaps not in the Wikipedia style. I would attribute the analogy to a nave. I would also avoid saying the design "invites".

Yep. Understood. Done.

Critical opinion of the success of Aulenti's design has varied in degree and over time. What is it now?

Done

arranged in a chronological order Step this out, avoid using chronological

Done - best as I can.

Following the completion of active voice (i.e. after completing)

Done

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:44, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Thanks ever so much for your suggestions. I am working through them but will need a bit more time. I also added a bit more to the introduction. See if you think it summarises her philosophy properly. Vera.Grace (talk) 07:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the second sentence of the lead, one of the few prominent female architects would better emphasise how rare this was at the time. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Continuing]

had wide ranging and international scope could you explain this to me? I think an article would be needed if it were kept, but I think it can be more succinct.

Done

In 1991, after Aulenti received two major commissions. One was a fix the grammar here

Done

theatre work expand

Done

Luca Ronconi gloss

I am not sure what would be a better image here because luca was a close colleague and friend of Aulenti.

highly architectural, evocative and innovative explain what this means, as I don't know what it means for a design to be architectural or what is being evoked.

Removed

She makes design reference to be consistent with the tense as in the previous sentence you were using past tense

Done

Her contribution moved stage design forward attribute this as it is editorialising (saying it's a good thing/progress)

Removed

Aulenti created on stage screens for the staging of I'm not sure what this means, could you clarify?

Done

be more involved in the experience make this more neutral (i.e. could better see)

Done

They also included videos of a royal procession previous filmed live on the street. I read this as the street outside the theatre, could you alter the writing to clarify?

Done

This was notable in its time attribute

Done

(1828–1906) you don't have to include the dates of when playwrights lived.

Done

ExhibitionsDa Puvis de Chavannes a Matisse e Picasso. Verso l'Arte Moderna (2002) at Palazzo Grassi I'm not sure what the grammar is supposed to be here.

Done

It continues will continue

Done

. The first was -> ":"

Done

Aulenti leaves a daughter and grandchildren reword so it doesn't read like an obituary. You don't need to mention that she had grandchildren. Just mention that she had at least one daughter

Done - see daughter in early life and education

are curated at the MOS:DATED

done

commissioned to redesign you can reword this to "redesigned". It is only more notable that she was commissioned if she doesn't end up designing it, and if she does design it, it's assumed she was commissioned.

Ok.

I'm coming back to the lede here

Aulenti was one of the prominent one of the few?

Done

Sentences should be less choppy here.

She was a proponent of modernism.[6] However, these sentences should be combined

Done

Make the lede a summary of the body (put any material not in the body in the body)

I think I have now.

Add a footnote about the spelling of Emilia: you can use template:efn. You can see an example of how it's used in the article I'm working on history of chocolate.

In her biography it is emilia so I think the other spelling may be incorrect.

Suggestions

San Francisco, California MOS:GEOCOMMA

done

to decrease the amount of natural reduce instead of decrease

done

Source 2 links to Palazzo del Quirinale, when I understand it should link to President of Italy

done

Sources

Spot check

[5] I would avoid using this source, or add a picture of a plaque being referenced if possible. Or a link.

[10] What makes https://www.re-thinkingthefuture.com/ a reliable source?

Gone - I didn't look into the site deeply enough. contribs) 10:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[15] Y
[20] Y
[25] Y
[30] Y (adjust the URL so it's just https://museums.eu/museum/details/711/muse-dorsay)

done

[35] Y
[40] Y
[45] clock I don't see in the source "(1976–1979)", although some page is cut off

gone

themodernistsguidetococktails.com does not appear to be a RS

gone

Same with hulmara blogs

gone

https://www.italiandesignclub.com/2023/10/30/gae-aulenti-a-pioneer-in-furniture-design/ gives different dates for the Olivetti showrooms. I don't really think it's a very reliable source.

gone

"How Ideal Standard revolutionised the modern bathroom" not a RS

gone

https://www.zanotta.com/en-us/products/chairs-small-armchairs-stools/april not a RS

gone

https://www.petruccimarco.it/ not a RS

gone

https://thesis.ncad.ie/T1471_The%20Pompidou%20centre_NC00209236.pdf can you see if this thesis was accepted or just submitted?

gone

Other stage designs by Aulenti include... this paragraph is unsourced

done

Aulenti designed exhibition spaces in Italy and abroad... this paragraph is unsourced

done

Other

Images

Why does "Locus solus" fall under CC0?

I found it on the Wikimedia creative commons?

Everything else looking good for attribution Y

Broad / summary style Y
COPYVIO/OR, 9.9% earwig, mainly museum names Y
Neutral Y
Stable Y

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:01, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few additional comments for consideration:

The parenthetical date ranges for named individuals such as Ernesto Nathan Rogers (1909–1969), Henrik Ibsen (1828–1906), Pablo Picasso (1881–1973), etc. seem like an unnecessary distraction (as the information is readily available in the wikilinked articles and elsewhere).

done — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vera.Grace (talk • contribs) 09:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Pipistrello lamp [it] has a stand-alone article on Italian Wikipedia (which would probably stand-up to scrutiny for translation and importation). You may wish to link this to indicate a possible article addition (using WP:ILL with a redlink, per example above – if this is acceptable practice in a GA nomination).

I looked at it and there is not a lot of new info and some refs which we discounted here.

If you choose to further develop the theme of Aulenti being a woman in what was (and to a degree, still is) a male-dominated field (see w:Category:Italian women architects vs. List of Italian architects), then a few of her contemporaries included Cini Boeri, Anna Castelli Ferrieri, Franca Helg, Franca Stagi, Nani Valle (wikidata:Q121010441), and Lella Vignelli, which may be information worth including in this article. I searched these and just included those who were Milan Polytechnic contemporaries.

There are plenty of other talented female architects, but most of them seem to link up with men [...] I've always worked for myself, and it's been quite an education. – Aulenti quoted in Guardian obituary (see Wikiquote)

-- Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think Aulenti's position in the professional realm (as a woman) is worth a section on its own? From my reading, Aulenti never played the gender card, that is, she relied on her own work and not, I am different because I am a woman in a men's area. Vera.Grace (talk) 06:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that this theme merits a section of its own, but the article does mention that Aulenti was one of two women in the class of 20 at Politecnico, and the quote above indicates that it is something she thought about (it is also discussed in the recently published podcast discussion between Alice Rawsthorn and Paola Antonelli). In any case, this information isn't necessary for the GA review, so it could always be added at a later date if you (or another editor) feel it would improve the article. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Aulenti's theatre work and collaboration with Luca Ronconi, I have added a few more references that may be of use for the "Stage and costume design" section (see Reference ideas on Talk page). In particular, this source states that she and Ronconi founded the workshop in Prato. (It also says that she worked with Claudio Abbado, and that she designed sets for La Scala in Milan – both of which seem like important details.)

Added

In the same section, do we need the photo of Ronconi? It is a very nice picture, but it is already used in the article about him. I would prefer to see images of Aulenti's stage designs here (if these can be sourced). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:44, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More tomorrow but I have searched high and low for a CC photo of her stage designs. There is a video of them but I am pretty sure I could not take a screen shot of that and use it. Vera.Grace (talk) 09:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gone

In my view, the information about the Poltronova [it] Sgarsul chair belongs in the "Industrial design" sub-section rather than the "Milan Triennial" sub-section. Also, the (excellent) Domus source does not mention the Locus solus pieces (nor, despite appearances, is the pictured chair from that collection actually a rocking chair). Perhaps this and the photo of a Thonet rocking chair (which, again in my view, seems superfluous) could be trimmed? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Hi, yes, I was wondering what you would think on that on the thonet chair. I was thinking to show the similarity in, or the origin of the design. What sort of chairs are they? I will ditch the Thoney picture.

I am going to go carefully back through the references as soon as I have time to make sure they are correct and sound. I am a bit busy at present, so please bear with me.

Ronconi photo is gone but I cannot find another photograph for theater work with the correct license.

I am in Australia GMT +10 so if I don't reply right away I might be asleep ;-)

Also, it is very foreign to me to begin a sentence with a verb eg Hailing from Idaho, he went to school for ten years ... especially when the clauses are unrelated. I thought I would explain that is why I don't use them. I know it is fine for a lot of people.

Vera.Grace (talk) 23:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing review

Starting down here since there's a lot above and a lot has changed since the article was first put up for review.

Responding to your question at my talk page, some items can be removed if they only include information already in the article. For instance, you cite a later edition of "Contemporary Architects" in the article. You don't need to include an earlier edition in the Further Reading.

Prose and content

"Although Aulenti was a proponent of modernism, when she worked under Ernesto Rogers, as a graphic designer, at Casabella-Continuità, a Milanese architecture magazine, she embraced the neo-liberty movement.[3][4] This was a controversial reflection on modernism which argued for an ongoing place for tradition and history in design, for recognising artistic merit and, for freedom of design within the modern aesthetic." This is far too much detail for the second paragraph of the lead. It should be a summary of what is contained in the body. Further, the quote that follows this should not be included in the lede, it should be moved to a section called "Philosophy" or the sort.
Through her career, Aulenti used her architecture and design skills in different professional forums ranging from furniture design to major architectural transformation. make this a lot more concise.
architectural stance don't use this phrase in the lede, as it's not immediately clear what it means.
her determination while determination in?
She is lauded for her artistic yet intellectual architectural stance; her determination while working in a male dominated industry; her depth of knowledge of history, music and art; her understanding of materials, light, design history and trends; and her ability to define a space for both experience and functionality.[7][8] this should be broken up, it feels a bit clumsy in the her... her.. her... format.
Aulenti is known for her transformation of the -> known for transforming the
occupation of Northern Italy during World War II. During the war -> occupation of Northern Italy. During this time
Her views clarify what type of views (artistic, political)
her first design studio in a room in her apartment on Via Cesariono in Milan → her first design studio in her Milanese apartment too much detail. Similarly remove the street name/number in the next sentence, unless this is particularly notable.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for these suggestions. I agree there is now information to create a design philosophy section of some sort. (At the beginning we had a section that was moved into the lede.)

I started a new article - Neo-liberty - still in its infancy.

Cheers, Vera.Grace (talk) 10:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[continuing]

Her works contributed to the international dominance of modern Italian design when?
One of Aulenti's early but lasting designs is the Pipistrello lamp (1965) reword this to conform to a more Wikipedia style, i.e. "In 1965, Aulenti designed the Pipistrello lamp, which, despite being created early in her career, has proven to be enduring in its popularity." I am not a very good writer sorry, but I hope you can see what I'm saying with integrating dates and laying it out so it's a biography.
In keeping with her design philosophy, Aulenti did not see a lamp as just a machine that makes light but a part of the overall effect of a space. same here. It is implied that any thoughts she has on design philosophy of a piece will be "in keeping with her design philosophy". It's only worth mentioning her philosophy here if it goes against it. To rewrite this in the biography style, you can say "In designing the lamp, she worked from the perspective that the lamp would function primarily as contributing to the overall effect of a space." I hope you can see the difference.
Needs some cleanup in this section, which you can work through (i.e. "Pipistrello ( the" and "width.[2]The lamp" and "20 cm")
The Pipistrello ( the word means "bat" in Italian in reference to the wing shapes of the shade) is 66 cm in height and 55 cm in width. the dimensions need to be better integrated to indicate their importance. Here, they are not that important, but to the degree they are important, it is in generating the "bat" shape they are named after. These facts should be integrated. The name, then, should be the subject of the sentence and not relegated to brackets.
The lamp is innovative in that the neck of the lamp extends by 20 cm so that the lamp can sit on a table or the floor. → The lamp neck's innovative design allows it to extends by 20cm so the lamp can be sat on both tables or the floor or The design of the Pipistrello's neck was innovative, as it could etc. Both more natural.

I am leaning towards taking this article out of GAN. I think it's a really well researched and very interesting, but I don't think the writing is natural enough and it doesn't conform to the Wikipedia style for biographies. Which is a requirement for #1 of the Good Article Criteria. I hope you can see that the article will require a great depth of comments if I continue to review, and GAN isn't really the appropriate place for that. I don't want to close this while you're sleeping, hope you can respond when you're awake. No rush, I might decide to push forward for a very very extensive review tomorrow. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: That would be a shame. In my view, it would be rather abrupt (and somewhat unsporting even) to remove the article from GAN now, after all of the fine work that both you and Vera.Grace have put into it thus far. Sure, there are some stylistic and other improvements still to be made, but I see no reason to halt this process prematurely. Wouldn't it be better to finish what's been started? In fact, I had hoped to nominate the article at WP:DYK once the review was completed and the article promoted to GA status! Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't intend this to be viewed as halting; if the issues can be addressed in, say, four days, and it's renominated, I will pick it up immediately and pass it! I hope you can understand; there's a very large backlog, and while I would love to work on getting this article to GA, I am better used in reviewing more articles, and then coming back to this after it's been given a good copyedit. That being said, I'm happy to leave this open for another week and then re-re-review if Vera.Grace would prefer that. There's no need to stress. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand completely. You have given me a huge amount of help and suggestions and this has taken a great deal of your time. One difficulty I can see is that I have been trying to change my style/syntax to what I understand would be better. I would like to edit back to how I would normally write - eg shorter, clearer sentences.

To be honest, I feel a bit like I have been trying to tie myself in knots. Would it hurt if I simplify everything, leaving the research and references and then others can fix it how they like/decide?

I presented the article for good article status on kind and positive advice. :-)

I am not so attached to the article that I would be disappointed (or object) if it is not a "good article", if it is better than before and presents the correct information to help people. Vera.Grace (talk) 21:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I took a critical look and basically, my syntax was rubbish. Made some corrections. If you get a moment, please see if I am on the correct path for encyclopaedic tone. I apologise if I have wasted your time. With your help, I have learnt a great deal. Vera.Grace (talk) 22:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're definitely on the right track. I think if you want, I'll keep this in GAN, and you can just ping me when you think you've made the changes that are appropriate. Take your time, a few weeks, however long it takes. You're making great improvements to the article. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Super. Will do. :-) Vera.Grace (talk) 06:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Use of tense

What tense should I use when writing about a design piece or a building that Aulenti created that still exists? Thanks Vera.Grace (talk) 08:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you give me an example of a sentence you're dealing with? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be something like,

"The Pipistrello lamp (1965) was another of Aulenti's early yet enduring designs. The lamp featured a neck that could extend by 20 cm, allowing it to be positioned on either a table or the floor."

This lamp is still readily available from vintage vendors. So, would it be, "The lamp features a neck ..." or "The lamp featured a neck"?

I have the same or similar question about her architectural or indoor displays that have since been modified (e.g. the d'Orsay). btw, I am still chuckling over her calling a line of bathroom wear, "the d'Orsay line".

Since I asked this question, I found Aulenti's page containing useful information and references on the Italian portal. Is it ok to translate and use the information (I can translate) and use the same Italian references? I was going to add the translated names of her designs but they did not seem to add a lot. eg Pipstrello = bat (for the shape of the lamp shade) or Ruspa = bull dozer and Sgarsul (supposedly from scugnizzo = street urchin) - there are references for these.

Do the names of works and buildings with Italian names need to be in italics?

I can find this info in MOS but I thought you might know off the top of your head.

My thanks again,

Vera.Grace (talk) 01:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for missing this. My personal preference is for past tense, but I don't have any MOS underpinning that, and I'm certainly not going to ping you for it in a Good Article review. You can translate, as long as the sources are reliable and you don't do any OR. Remember the article is about Aulenti, so the naming is probably too much detail as it is not about the works, unless it's significant to Aulenti (i.e. she named it after her hometown). If it fits in naturally though, go for it. Yes, italicize these. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your kind help. Yes, I will go with the past tense throughout. I think it is slowly coming along. Cheers. Vera.Grace (talk) 03:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Good article failed for lack of input

Good morning. I just wanted to let you know that I haven't been working on the article, not because of a loss of interest, but because my mother fell ill and passed away. I am happy with the failed status. Kind regards, Vera.Grace (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vera.Grace I'm so so sorry :( really sorry. My email is open if there's anything I do for you, on or off wiki. Don't worry about the article, if you want to come back to it and getting it to GA, just ping me and I'll pick it back up. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your kind words. I am having a holiday in December but I hope the New Year will be a little steadier and I can get back to contributing. Kind regards, Vera.Grace (talk) 21:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]